11 JULY 1835, Page 2

;Debated ant Prim:timid in Parliament.


The discussion of the Municipal Bill was resumed in the Com- mittee of the House of Commons on Monday. After a desultory and dry debate, of which a very imperfect sketch is supplied by the re- porters, all the remaining clauses of the bill, as well as the 10th, 30th, and 79th, which had been postponed, were agreed to without a division : the 115th, the last clause, was curried amidst loud cheering. The only important alteration was made in the 10th clause, on the motion of Lord JOHN Russeu.: it will have the effect of dividing boroughs in which the population is 18,000 into two wards ; inure than 18,000 and less than 24,000, into three wards; and exceeding 24,000, into as many wards as the Crown shall see fit.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated, that he hoped to proceed with the Schedules the next day; and that lie should then move that the bill be recommitted, with a view to the insertion of such new clauses as, on his own motion or those of other Members, the Committee should agree to.

On Tuesday, Sir ROBERT PEEL presented a petition from Tam- worth, praying that the corporation of that borough might be excluded from the operation of the bill, on the ground that no misconduct had been charged against it. Sir RullERT supported the prayer of the pe- tition; but Lord JOHN RessEss said, that in passing a general measure of Corporation Reform, be saw no reason fur excluding the borough of Tamworth from the benefits of the measure.

Subsequently, Lord JOHN Resssa.t. postponed the further considera- tion. of the hill till Thursday ; as be was not then prepan d sufbeiraily

with certain new clauses and ulcerations of importance which he in- tended to propose.

Mr. LECHMERE CHARLTON asked Lord John Russell to lay the re- port of Mr. Hogg on the table; as lie believed it would be found that

Mr. Hoggs report was not personal or irrelevant, as it had been de. scribed by Lord John.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as the report of Mr. Hogg was such

a one us that person had no right to send, be had not received it, and tierefore could not lay it on he tale.

Mr. BLACKBURNE expleined M r. [loge's mode of proceeding— in ma nogg hot cla.•11 ;0 seu.l it. his 0asirts with rt•spect to the places which be had hewn typo: sled to claim, Ibey w cold haw love lalloished it. Ile Report sat the Commissioners. Their o.n, no ill •Laitilinn it. Fawn,s ally uIsliw tr saa sous that. hr ‘011.1 1,0 domei from thehet 'onto lad-done. and bat Et Was his duty as a Uuienti.siu0.1 to uio. Mr. II ,q.,;,; Lad .1,1 it: see bat reports respecting tiro places, %kWh n puts were published is the Repurl or the units tutssiotters mr. mackiairste felt himself wr.unally In blame for the appointment of Mr. Nogg as a caullutssiuuer. Ile bad rap really rvouturnantlett Mtn to the uuble lord ou a hum tbe formation or the Co unni..iou &stilted. Ha nits sorry to v that he no longer eutt•rtaitied the of Mr. Meg Whelk he eetertailled at that period ; Nod he could assure tlw !loose. that that change of aelulua ass apt occasioned to Mr, liogg's thinking differently front him on ibis subject. By the terms of the CC/flank. Shah any three or more of the Commissioners acre entitled to make bjec tit Majesty on the sal for which the Oat:mission u applailled; but ing

ble Cum.

missloner was entitled to do so. It Mr. flogg had sent ha his reports to the Commis. shiners, M r. Mal kberne mould have taken rare that they should hate been laid before the Board. As the head Commissioner, he had pressed Mr. flogg to send in such re. arts. He had so pressed Mr. Hogg until the last two months; when circumstioicvs tibia' lie had rather nut detail, had induced him to determine that he e 11 oP further commtmication ilk that gentleman. Ile ball had 110 more romnittnication ith end he would rather resign 116 situation to-morrow that' have any inure conintitnicatiou will) him.

Mr. CHARLTON gave notice that, on the bringing up of the report,

he should move that the bill should riot affect any corporation against which no act of criminality had been proved.

The conversation then dropped.

On Thursday, the House being again in Committee, the Schedules

were agreed to, without the number of Councillors being fixed ; as it was carried on the motion of Lord JOHN 'RUSSELL, that the King in

C it should appoint such a number as, after the division of certain

boroughs into wards had been made, appeared to be most convenient. Some boroughs, including Alaltnesbury, were struck out of the Sche- dules, On etymon of the difficulties in dealing with them, owing to

the existence local acts and privileges : they are to be included in a future bill. everal Members expressed their disapproval of the large number of Town. Councillors ; while others contended, that it was not too large. Mr. Ror.uucx moved to reduce the number of Commillora for Bath, from 48 to 3U ; but this tnotion was rejected, by 105 to 74.

The bill was repotted to the House, and again committed. Certain amendments were agreed to, and the house resumed. The report was brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Tuesday; when the bill. us printed with its alterations, will be in the hands of Members, and the discussion will be renewed.


On Wednesday, Mr. D1VETT called the attention of the House to

the following notice of motion, placed on the book by Mr. Hulse, the member for St. Ives.

" That all phoneys in NewRate, and the other gaols in England and Wales. all lieugb possessing tio other qualilieat:nlll be, upon the princiiple or the bill, cut Med iluliwthei• tiately to an equal participation iu all the Ilanchisms as well niagisterial as elretive. thereby created; awl that, to obviate all uncertainty or doubt 01 the benevolent lute:t- tiots ui the bill. and the happy tendency tht•ror, lit•iug. in caret, to render all the higher ranks or his Majesty's loyal and respectable sal jells subordinate to it e lowest. without regaol to property or character, a etadse be jut reduced, in accordance anti the same principle, eslues.ly reacting to that effect ; and that it way for is er tht•realter be well understeool. hat the whole population in the t•orpoiale jurisdictions are. in all other re. bilious of I re. played upon a totitMg of perfect equality, agreeably to the natural rights of man ; and also a clause to provide a suitable retreat kw the gentry residing maker Om.° jut istlictions. and alto. with a mind mid Welings becoming their statiou, may seek an escape for themselves from t he scene of such a revolutionary infliction."

Mr. Divett considered that an apology was due to the House from Mr. Hulse ; and, if that course were not taken by him, he would move, in the strongest language lie could use, to expunge the notice from the Order-hook.

Subsequently, Mr. Divett made a motion in the following terms- " That a notice having appeared on the hooks from the lionot.rable Mrottwr or St. Ives, it Midi appeal. to belt gross insult to this House. and to the braiseluadeis to is has the Corporation Bill is meant to arely, it is the a isit of the [louse that such notice bet explitiged."

Sir GEORGE CLERK did not mean to express his concurrence in what Mr. liaise had done ; but he wished to observe, that when the honourable Member should mike the motion, it would be

then competent to any othtr Aleniber to move that the resolut' which he

might submit he expunged. He believed that it had not heen unusual fur ha- mutable Members who entertained a strong opinion on any measure passing through that House, to take the same Inratis as the honourable Member for St. Ives had used of expressing their minds in bold and somrtimes not very decorous language. This was a !node of attack to which the late Mr. Sheridan had fres. quently resorted, and in one instance with teletence to the Royal Alarriage Act; sr.d he did not see what the Member for Exeter could gain by haviog bis mu- tton agreed to, beedase, ever. If the motion were exputiged, it Willi hi still be in the power of the Member for St. Ives to tiling forward his motion if he should think tit. The notice was only an intimation to the House that it teas intended to hring forward such a motion ; and the Howe, he thought, should net be wiled on to inlet frre with that notice.

Mr. WARBURT0N supported Mr. Divett's motion.

Mr. RUTHVEN thought it a ptetnature proceeding to expunge the no- tice, Mule Mr. Hulse had been heard in defence of it.

[11 appeared that Mr. flake had left the House, after receiving inti- mation of what Mr. Divett Intended to propose.]

After some remarks from Colonel PERCEVAL, Sir D. VERE, and Mr. RICHARDS, Mr. linvs.TT withdrew the motion, on what lie 0011. ceived to be the wish of the majotity.

Mr. HUME thought the continuance of the notice discreditable to the House ; and moved that Alt. Halse's notice be expunged.

After :1 little Inure conversation, this motion was agreed to, without a division.


On Tuesday, on the motion of Loud Molars:Tit, the Irish Church Bill tva s read a first time, and laid on the table, amidst loud cheering. Sir Romer PEEL then rose to state the course which be intended to pursue with regard to the bill— This bill comptelwitcht some enactments, in the general policy of which 1 roma: and it n. epreheiels of hers to %shads I leel a most decided utiection in point of prin- ciple. 1 M.& .r ill the HOW.' mil makmg t new' al ratuement a ith le•rct to dnr col- lection al tithes in Ireland; I r Tic to the policy of suite ion tug fur the ha> meld or I lie in lies in kind. or for the • 1.usiatill ,,r tidies. the itop.si.ion or a rt•itt-clunge its the place of die present eller:le. I di.amee From the policy of makisig that reut- cluoge herpooal ; I disagree horn Ilse Hies or omitting its the bill some pro• visien as In the conversion tar redemption mi Ilse rent•charge mm the laud. But in the present stale or I reininl. end a it It a aery strong feeling or the policy mm making some immediate nrrowenwnt unit respect op the collection or tithes. I Imre. wealth. statulista the a: rung "fleet outs which I us I to Ober Innis of Ilk. Inll, a difficulty in gi.itig a tote oil I be seeosui rwolit g. the .'R et or islimb. it it should prune stiovaaltas nova t. to pre. hide that annum ..... Int with respect to the substitution of a I, lit-charge in lien or lithe*. In cure general !Miry 01 moll a sohilitol ion 1 641 ,brur; but 11.s. hr.ital has its sat) int!, Bras my uhiertioU to trilr-r mut. of the I ilt papa:041y to the appropriation of ecclesiastical poverty to other tbs./ uctiesisstivit. paeans% ille• enethately in connexion with the interests of the Established Church. and my ohjec- OM to the wholesale suppression of the spi r i ll tal charge of so mealy parishes in Ire.

Mad, are so strong that I cannot consent to perchase the beneat of the substitutkut of

arenteharge for tithe on the coalitions which the noble lord has aunexed to the change. The course, therefore, which mean to pursue, is, that on the motion that the Speaker leave the chair for the purpose of enabling the House to go into Con mittee ou this bill. I shall move an instruction to that Committee, that the bill bailat le. d by the noble Lord be divided into two bills. I du this for the express purpose of (maid iog those w ho linty concur in the view I take, to support that part of the cumbitted bill to which I mu ready to give my assent ; and I do it also for the express and avowed purl:cute of enabling myself and those with whom 1 act, to reject altogether, if ee can. that portion of the bill from which I entirely disagree. By taking that course, I relieve n yself from the difficulties which I must necessarily incur on my rejecting or attempting to reject the Lill as it now elands at as second reading. I should be affected by tl.e opposition of those difficulties ou many grounds ; and amongst telars, by being obliged to manifest at ape:trent disposition to prevent some arrangement being made for that relief to the suffering clergy to which they are justly entitled. If I should succetel iu my motion. eta if the instruction to the Committee be ;weed to. I should thus 1 ave an oppor- tunity of giving my assent to that part of the noble bard's bill of a hich 1 approve; but if that motion be objected to, and if it be determined that the princip!es involved in the bill shall not be separated, I shall have taken that mode of noun'estIng my de- ckled objection to an appropriation or ecclesiastical revenue to other than ecclesiastical purposes, and the suppress of the cure of souls in 8158 parishes in Ireland. I should. 1 repeat, thus declare my sentiments as to these two principles. whilst I would give my assent to that by which the conversion of tithe or compositiou for tithe into a rent- charge was iutended tube effected. The noble lord may easily see, t herefore, w hat course I mean to take on the second reading of the bill. As 1 shall have an opportunity of fully explaining my views when I introduce my motion for an to the Com- mittee, and as I do nut wish to trouble the !louse with a double explanation of the views which I entertain on this question. T shall rove no amendments, nor occupy at all the attention of the Hotter by addressing them on the second reading. It would then be for the convenience of the Muse, and of all the parties conceived, if a fair not ice were to be given by t he noble lora of the day on w kiddie proposes the Ilouseshould resale Wolf into Committee for the consideration of the Irish Tithe Hill. I think it. therefore, to bedesirable (though I cannot. of course, knew a hat the wishes of other Members may be on this point) that the noble Lord should to-morrow. or, at all events. an au early day in the week. give a public notice of the day on which he means that the !louse should go into Committee on the Irish Tithe Bill, and the debate on the im- portant question involved in the bill should take place."

Lord JOHN RUSSELL spoke as follows- " I agree with the right honourable Baronet, that some day should be fixed on whicit this debate on the Irish Tithe Bill may be brought forward. I do not think, however, that my noble friend the Secretary for Ireland can state tomorrow, or the day after, the precise day ou which the discussion is to be taken. My noble friend will move the second reading of the Irish Tithe Bill on Monday ; and in the course of the week I mesa to propose that the report en the Corporation Bill be brought up. On that occasion I should think there will be considerable discussion, but I do not anticipate that the third reading of the bill will occupy much time. Immediately after the Corporation Bill is read a third time. toy noble friend will propose that the llonee should go into Committee on the Irish Church Bill. I fully agree with the right boteestable Baronet, that taking the view which he dues of this quest ion, and twin disposed to deal with it in the manner which he has described, it is perfectly con- sistent with that view that he should not take the sense of the House on the second reading of the bill. When the tinestion comes before the house iu the shape in which he proposes to introduce it—as an instruction to the Committee—I shall then deem it fair to argue, that it is absolutely necessary to insert some proviSion regulating the appropriation of ecclesiastical revenues in a sy bill with respe t to tithes ; and I shall likewise be disposed to contend. that if that appropriation shall not be carried into effect by an act of Parliament containing similar principles to these on which the measure just intruilticed by my noble friend is founded, it is my cons iction, that so far from such is determination tending to the benefit of the Church or Ireland. it is not likely that any settlement of this great question will be effected likely to prove so beneficial tot hat Church as that obit-It might result from the measure which we have now brought forward." (Vehement cheering.) Sir ROBERT PEEL again said, that it was his distinct intention to make the motion of which he had given notice ; and Mr. SHAW ex- pressed his concurrence with the mode of proceeding adopted by Sir Robert Peel.

4. Poon.Laws FOR IRELAND.

Sir RICHARD MuscnavE, on Wednesday, moved the second reading of his bill for establishing a system of relief for the Irish poor. He dwelt some time on the extreme distress of the Irish peasantry, and the necessity of relieving it ; and then proceeded, in a very low tone of voice, to explain the principal provisions of his measure. He was un- derstood to say, that The bill provided for the formation of committees and sub-committees in the various districts of Ireland to investigate the condition of the poor ; and that in cases of extreme distress, if a requisition to that effect were signed by ten of their number, the Magistrates should levy a rate for the relief of the distressed. By another clause it was proposed to institute certain establishments for the purpose of preventing mendicity. Whatever might be the fate of the bill, he trusted that by permitting its introduction, they had at least sanctioned the prin- ciple that the interference of the Legislature was necessary for the relief of the poor in Ireland.

Mr. JAMES GnarrAs1 seconded the motion.

Lord MORPETII opposed it ; on the ground that, although he had that day laid on the table a voluminous report of the Irish Pcor- Law Com- missioners, yet that the whole of the evidence and their opinions upon it would not be ready before the commencement of next session ; and that it was quite hopeless to attempt the settlement of this great ques- tion at the end of a session. Next year, however, he did not hesitate to say that it would be necessary for the Government to introduce some measure on the subject. Under these circumstances, be hopes that S:r Richard Musgrave would not press his motion ; but if he persevered, Lord Morpeth would feel obliged to move that the bill be read a se- cord time that day three months.

Mr. RICHARDS delivered a rambling speech, rather in favour of the motion. He interlarded his remarks with Latin phrases, and stories about his own tenantry in Wales. Ile called on Mr. O'Connell to support the motion with all the power that "nature had given him," and not to prove a renegade from the question. Mr. Richards was an- noyed by considerable laughter from several Members, whose conduct be characterized as "indecent."

Mr. HOME expressed his reluctance to introduce Poor-laws into Ireland, until the effect of a better system of Government had been tried. He also much doubted whether Sir Richard Musgrave's bill would have the effect intended by its author.

Mr. POULE'FT Sown, in a very indistinct tone of voice, supported the motion at length. He animadverted in strong language on the conduct of the Irish landlords— Ile had no hesitation in saving, that four- fifths of the Irish population were the slaves of the landed proprietor+. If they offended the landlords, they were turned out of their miserable habitations to starve, as they could not get resi- dences in other places. He would ask them, was their condition superior to that of the slaves, when they could be deprived of the means of existence at the caprice of the landlords? As long as the Irish landlords possessed the power they:bovr did, it was not all surprising that they exerted themselves to prevent the adoption of any system of Poor-laws in Ireland. He contended that the property of any landowner in Ireland should be made liable to the charge of providing for the maintainance of the poor, as well as that of the owners and occupiers of the land in England. Similar powers should be given to Commissioners in Ireland for the establishment of a system of Poor-laws that had been conferred on the English Conunissioners. A great deal of mar- apprehension had prevailed as to the state of the people in Ireland, and this had been increased in consequence of the statements made io that House. In

the debate on the Union last year, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer

contended that there had been recently great improvements manifested in the Irish manufactures; and among other places he teferred to the state of Kilkenny as a proof of his assertion. On referring, however, to Mr. Inglis's work on Ire- land, he found that the statement that had been made by the Chancellor of the

Exchequer was not borne out by the authority of that gentleman: on the con- trary, he gave a very different account of the state of things in that place. He contended, in opposition to Mr. Hume, that the measures of Government in regard to the Irish Church would by no means do away with the necessity of introducing Poor-laws.

Mr. SPRING RICE complained of the tone of dogmatism adopted by i Mr. Scrope, particularly n reference to the conduct of the Irish land- lords; and professed his willingness, as the owner of property in Ire- land, to be taxed for the relief of the poor, in such a way as that greater distress would not be produced than was proposed to be removed. He wished Mr. Scrope to see how the bill before the House would ope- rate on the immigration of Irish labourers into England—. It contained a provision for the relief of the poor, not being able-bodied, of every class. Now, if they undertook to provide for the family of the Irish la- bourer, for every young person, for every sick person, for every diseased person of every class, by a compulsory assessment, as the bill proposed, he put it to the common sense of the House, whether it was likely that there would be a less disposition on the part of the Irish labourer to come over to this country, and seize upon the advantages held out to him by the English market? On the con- trary, was it not to all intents and purposes certain, that if the State contracted the obligation of providing for Isis family in his absence, he would be much freer than he ever was before to come over to England for the specific purpose of ob- taining the highest reward lie could in return for his labour. He feared the jobbing which would arise in Ireland, from empower- ing any persons to take from the public purse unlimited means of sup- plying relief to the needy— A more fertile source of abuse, a more formidable source of evil, a more fruitful and abundant source of jobbing and cot ruption, es-en as it affected the poor them- selves, could not be conceived. Let them take the case of two landlords—the one a grinding, hard, mercenary man ; the other kind and lenient to his tenants. The first, after grinding hi dependents to the very last penny, refusing to re- lieve their distress, would :4- enabled to borrow of the Consolidated Fund to what amount he pleased ; th other would be actually taxed to repay the amount of the loan in exact proport t.n to the extent of his endeavours to improve his est ite and render his tenants happy and contented. He wished, before he sat down, again to call the attention of the House to the practical proposition be- fore it. If they were of opinion that cases of distress, sickness, and all classes of infirmity, were not likely to be increased by providing the relief afforded by the Poor.laws, he was for them. He was willing, ready, and anxious to give legislative force to the affirmance of that principle ; but he was not willing, prematurely anticipating information which was not now before the House, to rush into hasty legislation upon a subject from which he knew retreat to be impossible. Attempts had been made fur more than forty years to remedy the abuses of the Poor-laws in England. Mr. Pitt bad shrunk from the task ; Mr. Whitbread had failed to give effect to it ; the benevolence of Mr. Sturges Bourne had proved of no avail ; and they had existed and increased until the passing of the bill of last session. If he could have believed that the motion under consideration would have produced the effect desired, he would have been as ready to second it as the .Member for Wicklow ; but not being able to arrive at such a conclusion, he completely and entirely acquiesced in the amendment adverted to by Lord Morpeth. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN, Mr. S. CRAWFORD, Sir E. HAYES, and Mr. G. F. YOUNG, each spoke a few words; and then Mr. O'CONNELL addressed the House for some time. He considered that the conduct of the landlords in expelling their tenantry rendered it necessary to resort to Poor-laws, as the lesser evil— The fact was, Ireland was now suffering from misgovernment, and from the misgovernment of that party to whom the honourable Akmber for Koster,- borough had recently attached himself. He wished that party joy in having such a political economist as the Member for Knareshorough at their back. The people of Ireland had been misruled for the last seven hundred years; they had been misruled by the Tory party ; and had the late Government remained in office for nine months longer, there could be no doubt that their mode of governing Ireland would have produced a sanguinary insurrection in that country. Mr. Richards would give to the people of Ireland a system of Poor-laws, while he denied them justice; they asked for bread, and be would give them a stone. The people of Ireland were by no means anxious to join with him in this experiment of Poor-laws. What they would have, was the experiment of fair and regular government in Ireland. At present the con- dition of Ireland was terrific. There were to be seen persons desolating the land by decimating the country of the tenantry. Landlords were recommended by the Orange party. in that country to get rid of their tenants; and the result w as, that the miseries described in the Borrishull petition would speedily extend all over Ireland, if something were not done to arrest them. In con- sidering this question, he most confess that he had been obliged to give up logie and resort to feeling. He therefore should concur in voting to-night for going into Committee on this bill ; but he would not do so if something worse even than Poor-laws did not exist. He wished them to go into Committee on the bill, in order that this subject might undergo inquiry by a Select Committee during the remainder of this session, and entertaining a hope that they would arrive at sonic proper course to be pursued. After some remarks from Mr. BENETT, Mr. A. LEFROY, Mr. SHEIL, Mr. AGLIONBY, and Mr. BARRON, Mr. SPRING RICE said that he would not obstruct the measure, if Sir Richard Musgrave's in- tention was merely to have it go into a Committee, in order to make it as perfect as possible. With this understanding, the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed that day fortnight.


On Monday, the motion being put, that the House should go into Committee on this bill,

Mr. H natE moved to postpone its consideration for three months. This bill, he said, was founded on principles opposed to all those on which the manufactures of tbis country were founded. The more free the manufactures were left from those restrictions and regulations contained in this bill, the better for the manufacturers and those whop they employed. Several Irish Members supported the bill ; and Lord MORPETII said, that though its provisions might not in strict theory be all per- fectly justifiable, yet as it bad received the general assent of both manufacturers and operatives in hated, be %%amid give it his support.

Mr. Hors's motion was rejected, by l24 to ill The House being in Committee, Mr. Hume expressed his surprise that Ministers should abandon their free trade principles on this occa- sion.

Sir llontatur PEEL was disposed to defer to the opinion of the majo- rity of the !louse— It was inexpedient to form even light pi ineiples nn those who were engaged in the manufacture in tpiestimi. If it email be lacuna"d to him that the measure would permanently promote that matinfiele.re, tlie benefit to morality w Lich must thi•ii ensue would leave Lim without he•iedion en the siiIii••et. But he

confessed hr I i4

some donl,tf respelling it, mel emild nor ek•arry see that that

must he good for Ireland which was no. can- id: red good ler eountriee.

In his °pink s, a Comniii,ei: tinglir. to be appnlie,•:1 in the ei•ei et• of the next ses- sion to itivestig de the suliji et. In the meanwhile, as the fir which the

bill was to be renewed was o three year he thought it would be leeter not to force upon the mannfaetiners prineipks the suundeess of tvhirtr they were nut disposed to ack

Lord Mon 'Flit jira Him the conewl of ministers ; nn the gromel that a serious iiijury ‘votild be iffiliptual vu dm trade in question, if the set were not passed for a limited period.

The bill then went through the Committee.

6. MastAceatrxr OF '111E POST-0E1 Fix.

Mr. WALLACE, GO Thursday, raved FOP a Select COLVGit(Ce to in- quire into the management of the Post office. Ile supported his motion in a vet y able speech, full of important details ; given so Sue cinetly as to defy nny attempt at cumin ession. We have not space to quote any considerable portion of it : but the reile.ers of the Niieetsi are already familiar with most of the topic: and arguments advanced by Mr. IVallace. Soffits facts relative to the " Money-order Office " are, we believe, new. Mr. ll'allace said— Ile had moved for a return in detail from the Money. order Office. of the whole amount of poundage chat g sl by Poetanastets upon Post- olliee Mom:y- orders, in each of the last three years. TLis office was estahlisbuil for the pur- pose of enabling the poor to transinit to their poor friends any sum to the amount af fit in a way that was not to (met them any thing. New, what was the return? Why, that the Post-office knew nothieg about it, lc:cause it was not in their department. The return said, " The .31iine -order Office is a pi ivate establishment, and the business carried on by itrivate carltal, undt r the sauction of the Posturtster •General ; but as no accounts connected in any degree with it are kept at the Post. office, no return can be made by the. Postmaster- General to the above order of the !louse of Commons." Now he wished to know with whose capital the establishment was carried ? Was it not the country's ? Whose were the servants? The country's. Where were the to-counts kept ? At the Post-office of the country. He hope!! that the I louse would not be con- tent with such a return as this, but that it would order another :11111 more per • feet one. The House should see who received the emidattnent derived from this source of plunder. Eightpence in the pound was the sum takes by this jobbing from the pour parent or child, instead of their being allowed to seed their money free. This was not ali ; the Post-office made an m der necessary, and tie: the pat- ties were put to the additional expense all ii :table letter. What became of this eightpenee? There were two or three officers in the country who divided it amongst them ; in London they raised eight pence in the pound, and the Post- office people put it in their pockets. Who they were who did so, they refused to tell : but if the Douse would giant hint a Committee, he would undertake to discover them. In the country, the Deputy Postmaster, who took in the letter, put threepence of the eightpence in the pound into his Own packet with the sanction of the Postmaster General ; the SUM of threepence mote went into the pocket of the Deputy-Postmaster to whom the order was .sent; the re- mainder found its way to St. Martin's-le-Grand to the General Pest-office. Yet they said they knew nothing about it !

Mr. LABOUCHERE complimented Mr. Wallace on the talent and in- dustry he had devoted to this most important investigation. He admitted that there was very great room for imrrovement in the Post- office system of management ; but be objected to the appointment of a Committee, as a Commission was already employed in investigating the Post-office affairs. That Commission was resolved to do its duty fearlessly— It was 110W but a year since the Commission on this question haul been instituted ; and notwithstanding the changes in the Government which had taken place within that writat, he thought he should he able to show that the Commissiotiers had nut been idle in the pet fitrmance of the task whirls had been allotted to them. One very important result of the inquiry had been, that a total change of system had been effected in one branch, by determining that one of the most improvident contracts which had ever been entered into—he meant the mail-coach contract —should cease on the 5th of January next. At this moment, indeed, the matter Was submitted to public competition, by the permission which was given to send in tenders for the supply of coaches for the next year. There had been under this contract a most absurd charge of 2100/. for oiling and greasing, Willa was abolished, leaving it fur the fin e to be borne by those who fur- nished the coaches. With respect to the facilities of communication with foreign countries, the good effected by the labours of the Commission on this ground was, that a bill was now before the !louse by which he had little doubt a more expeditious and less expensive mode of exchanging letters and papers between this and other countries would be effected.

With regard to the abolition of the office of Postmaster-General, and the appointment of a Board of Commissioners in his place, Mr. La- bouchere said that this was a point which the Commission would care- fully consider. Under these circumstances, he hoped Mr. Wallime would not press his motion.

Lord Lowther was in favour of Mr. Wullace's motion— Ile knew from experience that a Commission was inefficient to grapple with so along a body as the Post-office department. When he had the honour to belong ton Commission of that nature, the Post-office almost set them at defiance; and it was found by the Commission to be a matter of the greatest difficulty to extract from the Post-office any information necessary for the elu- cidation of the inquiry. The returns made by the Post-( ffice were always defective in some most important points. For instance, in their return re. specting steam-packets, they omitted the most important information, that which related to the expense of the establishment, and communicated only the tonnage of the vessels. With respect to the question whether contracting for steam-packets, or having an establishment of them, was the preferable course, Lord Lowther had a paper which showed the number of miles that the mails were carried by contract, and the number of miles that they were crusted by the establishment; and from that paper it distinctly appeared that the contract system was nearly a hundred per cent. cheaper than the system of establistments The cost of the steam-packet Post-office establishment between Dover and Calais was 14,000L a-year ; and just before he ceased to be a member Commission to which he had alluded, an offer had been made to 0: the pei

work by contract for half that sum. The question of fees was also one of great importance. It was not that he grudged to any public servant the fair cowls_ ment to which he was entitled. But whenever an attempt had been made to secure better accommodation for the public in this department of the public set vice, the fees had always been found to stand in the way. Fees had been abolished in every other public department, why not in the Post-ollice ?

The packets were very badly managed—

Unquestionably a vast sum was wasted in the establishment of steam•paekets ; than which, lie was convinced no system could be more impolitic. lit Liver-

pool, the Post-office packets reduced their fares to defeat the ae st. individuals. The same took place with the Post-offiee packets to Ostteel ; and when the Commission to which lie had belonged endeavoured to olas:a par- ticular information on the subject, owing to the existence of a contbiu:than they had found it exceedingly difficult to do so. It was absurd on the par: f flit! Post-office department to maintain an establishment of steam-paekets. Who was there in the Post-office that could possibly know any thing :dead eau: cat matters? The consequence of their ignorance was, that they bought staies am' other necessaries at random, and at exorbitant prices. Convinced, as kir was, that a Committee of the House of Commons would be more likely to te-t to the bottom of all these mysteries than a Commission, he should support the notion of the honourable Aleitiber far Greenock.

Dr. BOWRING alluded to the manner in which the negotiations ‘vitil the French Post-office Lad been carried on.

Ile had had occasion to know, that the communications of the Po edict: with the French Government hail been tirade in a most uncouttemis and taunt.

coin lilting spirit ; that that Government felt inueli annoyed at tic eiretion. stance, and much indebted to his Majesty's present Ministers for their readiness to remove the existing inconveniences.

Mr. SPRING limn said, that no Member could speak with so much weight us Lord Lowther ; for lie possessed eaoknnth s.o‘thtiliigei.coeft the principle on which the Post-office ought to be managed, nut of the manner in which it had been conducted. He was, howeverival.:1.),.1ii:ia iiio::

that a Commission would inquire more effectually into the

a Select Committee. He was sure that Lord Dune:ninon, who at the head of the Commission, would not suffer himself to be balled by the species of combination to which Lord Lowther had alluded ; and he would say distinctly, that if any person in the Post-office department refused to give the information he possessed, when required by the Commissioners, he should be dismissed from his place before the lapse of twenty-four hours— The Commission should not be defeated in its object by obstinasy •ttil- bornness. No sinecure, whether in the Post-office, or any other department, should stand in their way. Ile put it to his honourable friend, theref ire, the Member for Greenock, whether it trould not be better, for the pre,ent, to per- severe in the course which had been adopted. Let him recollect, tl: ,luring the period at which his Committee must necessarily he inoperative, the k:0:.t- mission would be working its way to the production of an efficient reform.

Mr. HUMF: thought a Committee of the House ought to sit no the facts already collected by Lord 1Vallace's Commission. If Mr. nice were sincere in his determination to eject persons who refused to an- swer queStions put to them, then Sir Francis Freeling should be at once dismissed; for his returns to orders of the House requiring infor- mation respecting the Money...order Office, and the expense of moil contracts, were the grossest insults offered to the House since he had had a seat in it Mr. WARBURTON wished the Committee and the Commission both to proceed in inquiring into the subject.

Lord HOWICK said that this would be impossible ; the authority of the Commission would be superseded by that of the Committee— The character of the Government was involved in carrying on this investiga- tion. The Commission would have made further progress if the recent elemgts in the Government had not occurred. But the present Government was no sooner appointed than it took up the subject in earnest. They had nissitly in- troduced two measures—one respecting contracts for mail-coaches, and : other respecting foreign communications. lf, however, the result of the Cominissiou should not be satisfactory when the report should be laid on the table, he wiaild, in the course of next session, most heartily join in the motion of the Lon arable Member for Greenock ; who deserved the thanks, not only of the Boasts but of the Government and the country, for the great pains he had taken on this sub- ject. ( Cheers.) Mr. WALLACE expressed his confidence in the promises of Minis- ters, and agreed to withdraw his motion.


Mr. CHARLES WOOD moved, on Wednesday, that the House should go into Committee on this bill. The object which it had in view was to raise the condition of the sailor, and to render the naval service as agreeable to and as advantageous for him 1,-; the. merchant service. With this view it was proposed that the period cf five years' service should entitle him to his discharge : and in order to guard against the hardship which had hitherto been often imposed on the sailor, by obliging him to enter on active service a second time immediately after the termination of the first period of his service, it was intended that he should be protected for two years at the end of the five, against being recalled to duty. The latter in ovi- slim would enable the sailor to see his family and friends after he had eerved for five years, an advantage which he now rarely enjoyed. If the five years ser- vice terminated in any case on a foreign station, the commander on that station would he empowered to detain the sailer for a farther period of six months, on giving him one fourth additional pay. The bill also provided, that on the breaking out of war the sailor should receive the usual bounty. This bill left the question of impressment exactly where it ought to stand—on tie prerogative of the Crown. Mr. BUCKINGHAM, Mr. HUTT, Mr. A. CHAPMAN, Mr. HOME, and Admiral ADAM, expressed their strong approbation of the measure as it now stood, after Sir James Graham's impressment clauses had been expunged. Captain ALSAGER approved of the bill almost entirely— lie was sorry that impressment, which was certainly reduced to a dead letter by it, was not altogether abolished. As one instance of the lengths to which impressment was sometimes carried, he could state that he knew of a vessel which was homeward-bound from the East Indies, and which had four men taken from her by one frigate, and four more by another, and when she came to Beecby Head was deprived by another frigate of every man on board fit for

naval service. She was then left, with a cargo worth 150,000/., in the care of three or four men. A MEMBER suid, that such conduct would subject the officers alluded to by Captain Alsager not merely to a court-martial, but to actions in- stituted by the owners of the vessels whose men they impressed. Captain ALSAGER knew himself the instance he had mentioned : the Captain's name was Page, and the ship's nume was Caroline. The bill then went through the Committee.


Last night, the House voted a considerable stun on the Miscella- neous Estimates, in a Committee of Supply. There was scarcely any opposition to the votes proposed by Ministers; and only two or three points in the discussion require to be noticed.

On the vote of 17,000/. for Milbank Penitentiary, Mr. PEAsE asked if that establishment was to be converted into a great military prison? Mr. F. Barnet: said, it bad been found necessary to send soldiers, "who were crowdioy the gaols," to that prison. Mr. LAW Honors said, he understood the prisons had been crowded with soldiers. The vote was passed.

The stun of 1:11,S-11/. to pay the Poor-law Commissioners was agreed to. Mr. Iltoae, Mr. Pease, Lord JOIIN RUSSELL, Mr. CLAY, Alr. Mena Porataes, and Sir AI. W. Hunan, expressed their satisffietion with the win-king of the new Poor Act ; which Sit. S. Wearatrv, Lordoatt:e. ET, and Mr. Law Homes, complained of, in some respects.

For Secret Service 'Money, 36,000/. was voted ; after Mr. Hume had expressed his hope that in future under a Reform Ministry there would be no occasion for this vote. Several other sums were voted ; and then Mr. KEARSLEY rose, and amidst shouts of laughter, spoke us follows.

"I have often considered the honourable Member for Middlesex a useful cheek to the extravagance that would otherwise be indulged in ; but after what I witnessed five minutes ago, I must put down his conduct as peafect humbug. I say it without any feeling of unkindness to the honourable Member. 1 have thought him hitherto a vigilant and active overseer. But when a vote was just now put to the House for—for-1 don't recollect the amount—for the Secret Service—(Several Members named the amount)—it was thirty something thousand pounds—I saw an honourable gentleman go over and check him for his interference. (" No, no !") I saw it—("No, no! ")—I saw it—("No!") —and 1 say I will see no humbug."

Mr. HUME feared that Mr. Kearsley's optics were not in a good state—he believed that Mr. Kearsley saw double. (Shouts of laughter.) No person had spoken to him on the subject of the vote in question ; which he had not opposed, as the sum had been reduced, and Minis- ters seemed inclined to lessen the expenditure.

Mr. NEARSLEY complained of Mr. Hume for attacking him on ac- of his infirmity of vision.

Mr. HUME—" I beg to explain : I do not accuse the honourable Member of not seeing, but of seeing double."

Mr. KEARSLEY—" The Member for Middlesex is out of his reckon- ing: I can see to count the tattle of the whole' as well as he can." (Cries of" Chair !" and " Order !" in the midst of which Mr. Kearshy resumed his seat.) Soon afterwards the Committee rose.


On Monday, Mr. C. VILLIERS aslied Mr. Hutt, as one of the Com- missioners appointed by the Crown to carry the Act of Parliament for establishing a new colony in South Australia into execution, whe- ther any, and what steps had been taken with regard to effecting tl.e object of that Commission ? lie asked this question at the instance of many persons interested in the formation of this new colony.

Mr. Hurt was happy to give Mr. Villiers: such informs tion as it was in his power to do on this interesting subject— As soon as the Commission was issucd by the ('town, no gentlernen named in it directed their earnest attention to the object, with a view to carry into effect the p1ovisionS of the Act tinder which they were appointed. !however easy and simple that task might appear, the Commissioners had found it sur- rounded with considerable difficulties. They bad, however, overcome those difficulties; and had printed and circulated widely a paper, the result of their !Moms, in which were set forth the rules and regulations be which the new colony of Smith Australia was to be governed. By these rules and regulations the Commissioners had endeavoured to prevent that dispersion of prisons which had been too much the case in former colonies. Ile was anxious to set the Commissioners right with the public on one other point. This Commission had been described out of doors as being a mere job. Ile denied this ; and to show that it was no job, he begged to inform the House, that the gentlemen who were now appointed Commissioners to carry the Act into (ft...et were the identical parson:: intended to be appointed by the Government' el which Sir Robert Peel WAS the head. With respect to the Commissioners themselves, he could only say that they had undertaken a duty of considerable responsibility— that of caimying into effect a measure of great public good ; and they would endeavotir to obtain that reward which they hoped would nut he withheld from them—the public approbation.

Mr. MACKINNON said, that as his name was connected with the Commission in question, he was desirous of saying one word.

Ile felt extremely anxious to do his duty to the first of his power; but it would be upon a clear and distinct understanding that he would never receive any reward or compensation whatever for any ditties that he might perform. It was unnecessary for him to say more than that, generally speaking, he con- curred with the Member for (lull in what he had stated ; and that he believed the object they had in view in that part of the world to which the Commission related, would ultimately be attained. liow long it might be before South Australia should become such a colony as it was desirable to make it, he could not possibly say ; but that it would eventually be successful, he did not hesitate to declare as his decided opinion.


COUNTY CORONER'S BILL. On Tuesday, according to the new ar- rangement, the House of Commons met at twelve, and went into Com- mittee on the County Coroners' Bill. It was agreed, by a majority of 44 to 37, that the Coroners' Courts should be open when the majority of the jury wished the public to be admitted ; after which the Chairman reported progress.

PalsONElts' COUNSEL BILL. 11lr. LwART, On Thursday, moved the third reading of this bill. Mr. (Malmo moved that it be read that day six months. Sir EARDLEY WILMOT, :Ur. CRIITS, Mr. Al acetNNote, Mr. Pout:rim, Mr. E. But.arat, Sir C. Briturta., and Mr. Eta astarow, opposed the bill : it was supported by Sir G. STRICKLAND, MI% LEN- NARD, Mr. C. BULLER, and Alt.. RUTIIVI:N. The House divided ; and the amendment was rejected. by 43 to 36. Mr. C. Buta.ett proposed the omission of nlifil,4.! ; but it was retained, by 39 to3S. Mr. BULLER then proposed the omission of the clause which empowered counsel to make speeches before Magistrates ; but this amendment was rejected, by 41 to 40. The bill was then read a third time, and passed.

ELECTION EXPENsts BILL. Mr. HuME1.,f4 night moved the second reading of his bill to diminish the Exia•lises of Elections, and to abolish the Property Qualification of Members for I:1%1am! tool Ireland. Colonel Siertioare 11111V01 that the bill he read a second time on Thor-day next ; Iwt hie motion was rejected, by raft to G. Al r. A. Tat•wrot moved, that it he read that day six months ; but the House rejected this motion ; In; .".i.S; to 5; aro! the hill Wei then read a second time. Air. SCIIING linWnSur, gave Police that he should

oIgrose the clause fan abolishing the Qualilicat:on of :embers of Parliament.

1.av P.arecreaec or SCOTt•II ANInti:11. JOHNSTON .itt0;11,tt'd loot right to this. subject hnfore the I louse ; but Alt. Ilree. Air. l'ax Ilaeate Lord Ad■-ovate Aluiteay, Alr. BRUCE, Sir G. Ceara, an.I Ala I I a eov, arlteer d Lint ro des;, -_not a single

Member supporter, :Mr. J ; and ho withdrew his motion.

ENTartro Starrett lisrA'rES PILL. C :parin Fratousoe, on 'tired- needay. moved the further coosideratir it of the repart on this bill. Lord Advocate Mr attAV LILA die I ili could not pass; in its present shape ; and moved to postpone its lualier consideration to that day three months. This metier' was agrt ell to, by E9 to 19.

A 1:EILDELN 1 'NI v It -1111:S BILL. On the a otion of BANNER- 3IAN, on Monthly, this hill, width will tin to the two tit ire:sitieS of Aberdeen, uses 1:•imd a second time, arid ordered to he committed.

11.01STMENT or CoLONEL losnrsay. 31r. flume presented a petition on Tuesday, signed munciously by the inhabitants of Cepar, Fife, against the appoiatinete of Colonel Liielesay to the command of

the Ft teshil e and ferilyilig that it alight be cancelled. Mr. Fox Mauer rlefend«1 the appointment on the ground that,

though it iniglA not be in eiceorditnee with the of the Govern- ment, or agreeable to the inhabitants of the place where this officer was stationed, still :is Coloet1 I.imdesay was I:unlimited by the Lord Lieu- tenant, exereisieg erg of the prerogatives of the Crown, he did not see how the house remit' he celled 011 to interfere. elt a Leer hum is the te:Id...ea Lund Join Resat:Les:aid, in allusion to this potirion, that The maitioners c. g7.11 to know wb tt at as tl:e state of the lave on the subject. The aotlintntent td. Colonel of 31ilitia list, .1 uith the Lord Idauteuatit of the comity, with this rcsarvatitat, that he inest it fy tlic appointment he wished to make to time Secretary of :::rate, and rhat if the Se...:.erary of State did not intimate to the Lola Licultm trot hi. !.Z.,j.,ty's disJpinaati.,0 of the selection, the appointment was to stand good. The ;111/1011ltIlleitt, the' fore, by no means rested with the Som.:tar). of state: it tested only with the Lord Lieutenant. Difference of political opinion would iti.!‘ :I justify the Secretary of State in intimating his Illajest■ 's disapprobation of the L. id Lieutenant'. choice. With this understanding of the law, he (1.m.1 John Russell) had felt it his duty, when Lord Itioden nem:net...a Cohand Lindesay, not to signify any dist pproba- tie.] of the tiomitiati a on the ;::art of the Caton. This i.xplatiation be had thought it nceesate sa mate, ie. e ::11* b n nark misinterpreted. Sir lioinate Peei. \pies tai 11 . ac: with lard Jolts and e ;ea a ;eel le, (eye being silvered In'1 ea.] Pe,,!■ar -u. : !cc for them.

'Fria e:•-: Tr- . r. i'• 1 - . for copies of an Treasury 1.:i!:!,!,• the money ad- vanced lee ,vee :::ent . the Thames• Time. 1 lie. V....‘.•.The conk ■.. 1. hail been ad- vanced cut of the piddle purse u, : ,•L.u:I of a erivate bill,

which wits as i.r. criine ; :'.utr. the security for the

til.viitive was wor idess. err. Have • a, he it:ol offered to allow Mr. Welter to inspd et ell ,s of the Company, but that 1 had iwt The money ad- vane. d w;a: (Ade ;",a er.,e/ ; .•eal ere • a ; lint t: public net, which au, !Raiz:a the laa.afey e• uu uccoant of public works. Itreame. Pala. stipd motion; which,

he said, was a "racy ',roper" ot;e. r. Si.--elilt:: said, that no

money Levu mlvaticad without security Imiog teken. He had offered to allow Air. 'Welter to inseeta the docturtents at the Trea- miry; be: hie re ject was to get up a a debate, nut to procure informa- tion. There vra, :.o clijre,.ii,i to I..y the impers niuverl for before the

!louse. was agreed to.

SER,..".EANT- AT- 21 On Thursday, the House, on the motion of SratNG Rice., eel reel to add' ess the King to " make twit provi- si or allowance as he may graciously think lit, to :Ivory Sey- , emr, Esq., din S,..rgeatit-at- Arms nttemliog ti. t iioust, rind that the :louse would erialle his Majesty's Treaeury to carry such order for

allowance i ido et." He explaieed, that it woos intended to continue

to AIr. Seymour the diffrri nee bt I %%Tot .tt year, his present

salary, end the amount which his successor would receive as a

retiring pension. ledge the force of these objections; but said, of course the House felt grateful to the King for his liberal offer. The conversation then dropped.

HOUSE OF LORDS. The Peers agreed, on Tuesday, on the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, to an address to the King, " praying that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to give directions for the erection of a temporary building for the use of the House of Lords, on the spot recommended by Sir Robert Smirke ; and also that he would be graciously pleased to give directions for the removal of part of the old walls of St. Stephen's Chapel, for that purpose; and also because such walls were now in a dangerous state."

Lord BROUGHAM suggested, that the Commons should be requested to concur in the address ; as it referred to a building which for so long a period had been peculiarly appropriated to them.

Lord LANSDOWNE approved of this suggestion.

Isl./swim:a MARKET Btu. On the motion of the Marquis of SALISBURY, on (Thursday,. Judge Park delivered the opinion of the Judges who had been consulted respecting this bill : it was to the effect that " the grant of a charter for a new market would be void as against the :'privileges of the City, and that the eircurnstence of the public convenience alone would not warrant the grant of :anew market." This opinion was ordered to be inserted on the journals ; and Lord SALISBURY gave notice, that when the time caine for recommitting the bill, he should more the further consideration of the Report.

LORD LIMERICK AND THE MORNING HERALD. On Thursday, the Earl of LINIERICK complained to the Peers of some very harsh and unjust remarks on his conduct as an Irish landlord, which had ap. peared in the Herald; and said, that he had consulted his lawyers with the view of prosecuting the publishers of that journal, and would riot be deterred from so doing by trouble or expense.