11 SEPTEMBER 1841, Page 2

Debates an Wroreebirtas in if3arliament.

THE CHANGE OF PLACES.

Both Houses reassembled on Monday, after the adjournment of a week, to give time for the formation of the new Ministry.

The Lords met at three o'clock ; oaths were administered to a few Peers ; and the House then adjourned till five. There was but a thin attendance at that hour. The Duke of Wellington was, as usual, one of the first in the Mouse : he took his seat at the table for a short time, bat on -the House resuming he removed to the seat usually occupied by Viscount Melbourne. There was soon afterwards a good sprinkling of Peers on both sides of the House, but the Ministers and their friends were by far the majority. Viscount Melbourne entered the House soon after five, and took his seat on the Opposition bench, but not in that place usually occupied by the leader of the Opposition. He was soon after joined by the Marquis of Lansdowne and several Ministerial friends. Lord Brougham placed himself on the Opposi- tion bench, exactly opposite to where he generally sat when on the Ministerial side. Some slight laughter was caused by the Duke of Sutherland, who, on entering the House, went to the place he usually occupied on the Ministerial side, took his seat, and did not seem to find out his mistake until he saw some of the ex-Ministers opposite to him. The noble Duke enjoyed the joke to which his error gave rise. and made his way to the other side, along the front of the Ministerial bench; every Minister on which good-burnouredly shook hands with him as he _passed. The Duke of Sussex and the Duke of Cambridge were present during the sitting, and sat together for some time.

The House of Commons met at four. The Conservative Members, of whom a considerable number were present, took their seats ou the Ministerial side of the House. The Opposition benches were much less fully occupied. Mr. Wakley remained in his old place in the centre of the Ministerial ranks, and appeared, says the Times, peculiarly delighted. Much mirth was occasioned by some of the Members proceeding to their accustomed side, and vainly looking in amazement for their friends, until awakened by the laughter to a sense of their error. Mr. Litton stood for some time, and carried his eye along each of the Opposition benches one after the other before he discovered his mistake ; and then crossed over, joining very heartily in the laugh that he had created.

ADMLNLSTRATION OF JUSTICE.

In the House of Lords on Monday, on the motion of Lord COTTEN- MAX, the Administration of Justice (Courts of Equity) Bill went through Committee. On the bringing up of the report, Lord BROUGHAM moved as an amendment, that there should be only one new Judge under the bill— The bill contemplated two Judges, one permanent and the other for the life .ef the individual appointed. Now, it appeared to him that neither ought to be permanent; and that one appointment, and that one appointment for life, would afford abundant means of removing the evil complained of'. It nes now four- teen months since a bill having an object similar to the present was sent down by their Lordships to the other liouse, where it was allowed to fall through and did not pees. He would not then enter into any of the reasons why it did not ; but ilthe occasion for its being sent down were so pressing— If the relief which it was intended to give were so necessary—he should have thought that so long a period would not have been suffered to intervene as be- tween that and the present time. He should propose that in the 19th clause, Instead of the word " two " there should be inserted the words "an additional Judge." Lord lecerrstinen said, that any addition of judicial aid in the Equity Courts less than that proposed by the hill would not be sufficient to re- Neve the suitors from the evils of delay.

The amendment was put, and negatived without a division.

Lord CAtarnr.m. proposed an amendment, of which the object was to remove all doubt as to the eligibility of Irish barristers of fifteen years standing to be appointed to the Vice-Chancellorship equally with gen- tlemen at the English bar. Ierd BROUGHAM observed, that the exalt-

sive mention of the eligibility of Irish barristers to appointments under this bill, might cast a doubt on the power of -the Crown to appoint Irish barristers to the Vice-Chancellorship created by the Act 53d George III. On the suggestion of the Loup CuArimmx.on, it was agreed that the amendment should be postponed till the third reading of the bill. The report was then agreed to. The bill was read a third time, and passed, on Tuesday ; Lord CAMP-

BELL having introduced a clause to declare that the word " barrister in this or any other act of Parliament should be held to refer to the Irish as well as to the English bar ; and Lord COTTENHAM another clause fixity, the commencement of the operation of the bill for the 15th instead ofthe 5th October.

On the -motion of Sir Tuostas FREMANTLE, the bill was read a first time in the House of Commons on Wednesday. lord PAraizaerois seconded the motion ; and in doing so paid a tribute of respect to Lord Cottenham, with whom the measure originated— There was but one opinion among the entire bar as to the merits of the noble lord ; and that general feeling of respect, arising in the entire oblivion of all party and political differences, reflected an equal honour upon the bar -and upon the noble lord who was the objectof it. That noble lord, by his indefati- gable and most laborious application to the business of his office, by the strict impartiality and soundness of his decisions, by the large scope of mind which he had brought to the application of the great principles of law belong- ing to that department which be had had the honour of administering, would rank among the most eminent of those men who had filled the great and im- portant office which he had recently resigned.

Mr. WAKLEY said, that the loss to the public a 'Lord Cottenham'a

services afforded one of-the strongest illustrations thateould be adduced of the gross impropriety Of combining political with the judicial functions of a judge, in the case of the Lord Chancellor : that a man who had so discharged his high duties as to have Obtained the general approbation of the public, of men of all parties and all opinions, should be compelled to leave the judgment-seat 'because there happened to be a change in the political administration, was a violation of all common sense and of the first principles of justice. He hoped the present 'bill wotild provide a remedy for the evil. Mr. CHARLES Burman -likewise condemned -the absurdity of the existing practice. By all persons who came before the Court of Chancery as suitors, by persons who were.engaged there as practitioners, by the entire public, it was felt as a heavy calamity that a judge like Lord Cottenham, in the prime of his life and faculties, should be thus lost to the country. A remedy could not well be provided in the bill before the House, but he trusted that the present Government would take up the subject.

The bill was ordered to be read a second time on the 17th.

LEGAL OPPRESSION.

Lord BROUGHAM called attention, in the House of Lords, on Tuesday, to several cases in which much injury -was done by the operation of the law. The first was that of Isaac 'Winter, of Walton ; from whom Lord Brougham presented a petition—

This unfortunate man stated that he was suitor in a case pending before

their Lordships as an appeal, and his complaint was of the delay which had occurred in its consideration. In the course of the discussion on the appeal some questions of law had arisen, on which it became necessary to have the opinions of the Judges ; and the questions had been referred to those learned persons, some time in 1839 ; but they had not agreed upon the answers that should be given. The fact was, the questions involved. points of law of great difficulty; and he believed that of the Judges to whom the questions were referred, half were of one opinion and half of another. However, it 41-4.13 of great consequence to this poor man, who was now seventy years old, that a decision should be given as early as possible, for the case was one of great hardship. Lord Brougham next referred to-many enactments remaining on the Statute-book, which are generally considered to be obsolete, but Which are sometimes made a handle of for purposes of oppression— The case of the bill which their lordships -had passed yesterday [to indem- nify Lord Scarborough) was an illustration of the kind of penal statute to which he had referred. 'There were on our Statute-book certain high penalties to be inflicted on Members of either House oft Parliament for taking their seats and voting without taking •the oaths and subscribing the Parliamentary roll; but those were ao highly severe—so far out of all proportion toile acts or omissions to which they were attached, that no one ever dreamed that they ought to be inflicted. If the penalty were a fine of 401., or 50/., or 1001., It would be considered quite enough, and it would be at once paid, without for a moment rendering a bill of indemnity necessary : but what were the penalties as they now existed 2—They amounted to a total and perpetual disqualification for holding any situation of trust, or honour, or profit ; -they-incapacitated the unfortunate offender, however much his act might have been an error of which he was unconscious at the time, for ever having a seat in either House of Par- liament ; they incapacitated him from the power of suing or of entering any plea in any court of law or equity, or from taking any legacy or any gift or profit by any'legal document. In fact, they inflicted total civil incapacitation, almost equivalent to civil death ; and the consequence was that-no one thought that they ought-to be enforced : ;but, -as they ought not to be enforced, they ought not to be allowed to remain on the Statute-book. Lord Brougham then alluded to the statutes for enforcing attendance at parish-churches on Sundays— Br an act of Elizabeth, neglect to attend divine-service was punishable by ecclesiastical censure, and by a given penalty of Is. : the 3d Elizabeth inflicted a penalty of 201., to be levied on land and goods,for being absent fottrouccessive Sundays from church ; and if that absence were persisted in for several months, the penalties became much more severe. Now those acts still existed on tberpages of the Statute .book,tesides an act of James the Tirst, WhiCh provided means for the recovering of the penalties. These laws were in themselves most annoying, not so much from -the amount of the fines-they inflicted, though in the second case to which he had referred the fine would be ruinous to many, bat from the harassing and abuses to which they might give rise. It was not, be believed, more than a month back when eleven persons were convicted in shilling pe- nalties for non-attendance at church on Sundays. The fines, itwas true, were not much, but there were besides costs in cases where the partiesrefused to pay. In-one case the costs were 14s., and in another23s. ; and for non-pay- ment one patty was imprisoned six weeks and the other Entity-one days. Now, he supposed their Lordships would agree with him in thinking, that >any person who was anxious to see the parish-churolies duly attended on Sundays, could not well hit upon a mode worse calculated to insure 'that object than those coercing fines. Indeed, it was about the best mode Of instertng church non- attendance that could he devised : besides, as he had said, this power was liable to be perverted to most capricious purposes. He cast aio blame on anybody; but surely our statutes ought not to he left in a state in which to enforce them would be disgraceful. He had heard blainecast for having many of these fines received on account of the Sovereign, or of the State; but there was no option,

when once the statute was enforced. He mentioned these circumstances for the purpose of having the attention of Government, and particularly of his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, directed to the subject. The law ought*, be altered on these matters ; or perhaps, what would be better, there

olitt not to be any law atall on many of them. No reply was made to Lord Brougham's remarks, and the subject dropped when he ceased speaking.

Mr. MILNE'S gave notice, on Wednesday, in the House of Commons, that immediately after the recess he should move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal so much of the act of 2d Elizabeth and of the act of ad James "L as relates to compulsory attendance on Divine service.

IRISH MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS.

In the-House of Lords, on Monday, the.Earl of GLENGALL called the attention of the Government to a petition from the rate-payers of the city of Dublin, complaining of fraudulent alterations made in the burgess-roll -lay which the Municipal elections in Dublin must be re- gulated— The burgess-roll was filled up, or ought to be filled up, only with the names of those who were under assessments to the poor-rates to the amount of 10/. a year. Now the petitioners complained, that in order to create a fictitious -constituency, many alterations were made, and names were so entered that it was impossible for the Revising Barrister to know who had the right to vote and who bad not : names were entered to give facilities for personation • the net annual value was also altered—some who had been assessed at 71. had that changed to 101., others again had an addition of 1/ 5s. Gd. made to the assess- ment, so as to bring it up to IOL The fraudulent practices were, in a word, so -various and so numerous that it was almost impossible to get a correct-list. How all those evils were to be remedied he did not know • but he supposed the subject should be investigated in some way. He believed by one clause of the Irish Municipal Corporation Act, the Lord-Lieutenant and Council had the power to grant time for the purpose of entering into inquiries where such abuses were proved, in order to have the false entries corrected.

Lord Glengall had predicted the evils which the bill would produce in Dublin— 'When the Irish Municipal Corporation Act was tinder discussion, he, in common with many other noble lords, strongly objected to including the city of Dublin in the operation of the bill, because he foresaw the gross practices which would be resorted to by one party to carry the elections of corporate officers their own way. The facts now stated in the petition before the House fully bore out all that he had anticipated. The struggle which he had foreseen had now commenced ; and if the Churchwardens and others in authority per- mitted such scenes, they would become partisans, and in a short time it would be seen that the Corporation of Dublin would be in the hands of Repealers and other agitators, that the Mausionhouse would become the arena for those -scenes which now usually took place at the Corn Exchange; and that in "the King's room" questions would be discussed whether Ireland was to continue under the sway of a British Sovereign.

The .Duke of WELLINGTON said the matter was properly one for the consideration of the local and Poor-law authorities ; but he would never- theless cause inquiry to be made into it.

THE POOR-LAW : MR. ROEBUCK AND THE TIMES.

In the House of -Commons, on Monday, Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice, that at the proper stage of any bill which should be introduced for the purpose 'of continuing the present Poor-law Commission, he should move clauses abolishing the Commission, and vesting the discretionary powers of -the three Commissioners in the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

On Wednesday, Mr. ROEBUCK complained of a breach of privilege committed by the Times [in an article attacking him on account of the

foregoing notice.] He did not do so on account of his own personal

interest, for what the Times said could not affect him in any way : he was of Dr. Johnson's opinion, that no man could be written down except by himself. But although he did not call upon the House to exercise its power in the matter, the article in the Times was so.gross a breach of privilege, • that for the sake of morality, as well as of the ordinary business of Government, he thought it behoved him to meet in front any attempt of the kind. The Times had attempted to frighten—ay, to bully a Member of the House out of the performance of his duty. On account of the notice which he had given, he had been visited by the virulent abuse of the Times, as a person only "honourable" by being a Member of that House. He defied all the world to bring forward one act of his life that ought to deprive him of the appellation of " honourable"— "Honourable, Sir!" continued, Mr. Roebuck who evidently, says the Morning Chronicle, spoke under the influence of great and unusual excitement—" why not honourable ? They say in this paper that 1 am of the humbler order of society. -Suppose I were so, is 'that any reason why I should be interrupted in the discharge of my duty, chosen as -I have been by a large constituency of my countrymen to represent them in 'Parliament ? Suppose I were not, as I am, distinguished in science and literature by the ancestors who have given me birth—suppose I were not so, is that any reason why I should be put down by an insinuation of this sort ? It is said iu that article that Lain a wholly unable, unfit, and improper person to suggest such a proposition to the House of Com- mons : of that, I think, the 60,000 inhabitants of Bath who sent me here are better judges than the anonymous scribbler of the Times." He claimed the attention of the House and of the constituencies -while he referred to this flagrant abuse of the liberty of the press- " In the Times newspaper there is a person as necessary to it as the-editor ; I mean the person who is called its responsible proprietor, and is registered as such. His name is Lawson ; but, taking the probabilities as they stead on the cards, he is most likely at present in-prison. I say so because the chances are that that individual is in prison ; for so libellous is the Times, that anybody who represents it may be considered as a general rule to be in prison. This man, however, bears the responsibility of the Times—first, as to the fines which it may have to pay; next, as to the punishment which he may have to bear and thirdly, as to the cudgellings which he may receive. But the writers of the articles are totally irresponsible. The man who has expended his venom in the article in question is as irresponsible as if he were living in South Aus- tralia at this moment, and had penned it there. Do you think, Sir, or does any one honourable -Member present think, that he will send me his name to- night when I go home? No I Be chooses to pen an article in which he de- clares me to be totally unworthy the name of honourable,'—,yet he dare not give me his name I" He asked whether it was for the benefit of society that such •proceed- ings should exist? and whether the abuse was not likely to lead to one of two things—either that society should demand-that every man should put his name to the article which he should write, or that a bill should be brought into that House for the purpose? Before he hushed ke

would suggest !a: is ble Member:, more sensitive than himself an

infallible rem e' - for the es il- " The parties who attack us here ere rotelly irresponsible. You cannot ge at them by the law or otherwise. I therefore suggest to honourable Membelss who may be similarly situated with myself, that if any one of them should be attacked by the Times newspaper, and should not wish the attack to be re- peat-al, he shodlo at once-horsewhip Mr. Walter, the real proprietor. He may depend upon it thet the attack would never be repeated." Here Mr. Roebuck was interrupted with loud cries of " Order! " and Sir Itousaer INoi.is asked whether he meant to make any motion ? Mr. ROEBUCK• bad said in the first instance that he did not. Sir ROBERT remarked, that Mr. Roebuck had spoken about his ancestors having con- ferred distinction upon hint in science and literature, though he had not told them who they were ; but ou no single ground had be claimed the attention of the House. After a good deal of chaffering as to the right order of procedure, Mr. RoF.necat, in order to comply with the forms of the House, moved that the Clerk should read the article upon which an ulterior motion was to rest ; but the reading of the Clerk not satis- fying him, he went to the table and proceeded with it himself. The -whole of the passage which was read ran thus- " The circumstance that certain small gentlemen, who form a sort of one- shilling gallery class in the present House of Commons, entertain a very mis- taken sense of their proper province and duties, is likely, we fear, to prove a materitl hindrance to public business, as well as a serious annoyance to the honourable circles who wish to behave peaceably in that great political theatre. The House, it seems, is not without its Olympus of disorderly gods, who, are the curtain is well drawn up, have already begun their noisy and inconvenient interruptions, which will probably continue throughout the remainder of the session; nor, unless some effectual restraints be imposed on them, do we see how their incessant disturbance of the Parliamentary ass,oubly can be otherwise than productive of the most mischievous re- sults. Amidst the pauses which sometimes occur in the melodious voices of Messrs. -Hawes end Ward and Dr. Br:leering, the House is threatened with an interlude by their gallery friend Mr. Roebuck, on the snbject of the -Poor-law Commission. Nothing could be further from our habitual civility, or -more at variance with our known respect for the humbler orders of our countrymen, than to represent Mr. Roebuck as a nuisance. Having been made an honourable gentleman by dint of getting into Parliament, that ele- vated person has an undoubted right to exercise the privileges of his sphere— we admit it. That those privileges entitle him to fling orange-peel at the prin- cipal performers, or to have a sally at the dress-boxes now and then, might not, if' his class-licence were moderately used, be reasonably complained of Chartists, such as he, are chartered men ; and their occasional impertinences are both expected and endured. But Mr. Roebuck and his associates must nob be permitted entirely to forget their station. That he should be allowed to injure (Neu thing at his mere pleasure is wholly out of the question. If he do not kiiow his jte-t limits and latitude, the lesson must be seasonably taught him. The evil of seeing important interests made utter havoc of by a precipi- tate and pert interference is not to be endured. lu point of personal and poli- tical influence, he is just as fit to lead in modifying the new Poor-law as the one-shilling gentry of Drury Lane." Mr. ilambuek then moved, that the printer of the Times newspaper he ordered to attend at the bar of the House. The motion was not se- conded.

Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that the more regular course would have been for Mr. Roebuck to propose, as a preliminary motion, that the ar- ticle iu question was a breach of the privileges of the House.

Mr. ROEBUCK was ready to take the course suggested ; and he -ac- cordingly moved that the article just read was a breach of the privi- leges of the House.

Toe motion was not seconded ; and the subject accordingly dropped without result.

Mr. YORKE gave notice, on Tuesday, that on the introduction of the Poor-law Bill he should move the insertion of a clause to prevent the Commissioners from enforcing the separation of man and wife, where the application for relief arises from infirmity and not from improvi- dence or crime.

MISCELLANEOUS.

SormT. In a Committee of the whole House, on Tuesday, on the -motion of Sir GEORGE CLERK, the Commons resolved " That a sup- ply be granted to her Majesty." This resolution was affirmed on Wed- nesday, and a Committee of Supply was appointed for Friday next.

NEW Wnrrs. On Wednesday, new writs were issued for the follow- ing places, the Members whose names are enumerated having accepted

office : 'Farnworth, Sir Robert Peel ; Cambridge University, Mr. Goul-

burn ; North Lancashire, Lord Stanley ; Dorchester, Sir James Graham ; Kent, (Eastern division,) Sir Edward Knatchbull ; Launceston, Sir

Henry liardinge ; Nottingham, (Southern division,) the Earl of Lin-

coln; Monmouth County, Lord Granville Somerset; Westmoreland, Lord Lowther, (also called to the House of Peers) ; Cardiff, Dr.

Nichol' ; Cornwall, (Eastern division,) Lord Eliot; Bury St. Ed- mund's, Earl Jermyn ; Marlborough, Lord Ernest Bruce ; Newark, Mr. W. E. Gladstone ; Huntingdon (borough), Sir Frederick Pol-

lock ; Exeter, Sir William Follett ; Bute, Sir William Rae ; Wen-

lock, Mr. J. M. Gaskell ; Marlborough, Mr. H. B. Baring ; Sligo, Mr. A. Perceval; Selkirkshire, Mr. Alexander Pringle ; Aberdeenshire, Mr. W. Gordon ; Tyrone, Mr. H. T. L. Corry ; Huntingdon (borough),

Mr. Jonathan Peel ; Chippenham, Captain Boldero ; and Lisburne, Mr. H. Meynell. Writs have also been issued for new elections at Bridport and Sunderland, m the acceptance of the Chiltern Hundreds

by Mr. Warburton and Mr. W. Thompson ; for York, (North Riding,) on the succession of Mr. William Duncombe to the barony of Fever-

sham ; for Bradford, on the death of Mr. W. C. Lister; and for Lich- field, Sir George Anson having accepted the stewardship of the Manor of Poynings.

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. Petitions have been presented against the election-returns for the counties of Cork. Kerry, Wigtown, Carlow, Louth, Tipperary, Flint, and Rutland, (two petitions) ; and against the

returns for boroughs of Cardigan, Nottingham (two petitions), Wake- field, Dudley, Rochester (two), Athlone (two), Gloucester, Dublin, Blackburn, Lichfield, Southampton (two), Newry, Newport (Isle df Wight), Kinsale, Elgin Burghs, Sudbury, Bewdley, Reading, Belfast,

Wareham, Newcastle-under-Lyne, Lyme Regis, Merthyr Tydvil, Shrewsbury, Down patrick, Barnstaple (two), Stafford (two), St. Ives, Har- wich (two), New Windsor (two), Carnarvon, Waterford, and Thetford.

Mr. OVONNELL'S ELECTION. The SPEAKER announced to the House on Wednesday, that Mr. O'Connell, who had been elected both for Cork

and Meath, had informed him by letter of his having selected Cork as the place for which he should sit. The Speaker added, that Mr. O'Connell seemed not to be aware that he must withdraw until the determination of the House should be known on a petition which had been presented against his return for Cork.

PUBLIC BUSINESS. In answer to an inquiry by Lord PaLarEnTroze, Sir GEORGE CLERK said, on Wednesday, that'as soon as Sir Robert Peel resumed his seat in the House, he would no doubt state the course which he proposed to take. PROVISION-DUTIES. In the House of Commons, on Monday, Dr. Bowiwea, after moving for returns of the Customhouse Tariff of duties on exports and imports, gave notice that be should shortly move for the appointment of a Select Committee to take into consideration the duties on the importation of cattle and live stock ; and also of another Committee, to consider the duties on the importation of bacon, pork, lams, salt provisions, and potatoes. THE M'LEOD AFFAIR. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that he should move, at an early day, for copies of all correspondence between Mr. Fox and Mr. Webster relative to the case of Mr. M`Leod. RAJAH OF SArrARA. Dr. BOWRING gave notice, on Tuesday, that on an early day he should call the attention of the House to the case of the Rajah of Sattara. THE IRISH BISHOPS. On Tuesday, in the House of Lords, Lord WHARNCLIFFE having brought up the report of a Committee naming the four Mali Bishops whose turn it was to sit in the House for the present session, moved that the Bishop of Down having taken the oaths and his seat by mistake, thinking that it was his turn to sit as one of the four Irish Bishops for the present session, his name be struck off the roll. [This motion will only have the effect of depriving the Bishop of his seat until his regular turn come round.] LORD SCARBOROUGH'S INDEMNITY BILL. The bill for the indemni- fication of the Earl of Scarborough from the consequences of his having, through inadvertence, sat and voted in the House of Lords before making the formal oaths and declaration, passed every stage in both Houses on Monday. The bill received the Royal assent, by commis- sion, on Wednesday. ENGLISH BISHOPS ABROAD. On the motion of the Archbishop of CANTERBURY, on Tuesday, a bill to legalize the consecration of Bishops in foreign countries, more particularly on the shores of the Mediter- ranean and in the Turkish empire, was read a third time, and passed. ADJOURNMENT OF PARLIAMENT. On Wednesday, the House of Lords adjourned to Monday the 20th instant, and the House of Com- mons to Thursday the 16th.