Dtbates aIIb Vrottannas in Varliament.

STATE OF THE FINANCES.

The House of Commons was occupied on Thursday with an portant discussion on the financial condition and prospects of the country.

Mr. HERMES moved for the following papers. " An account of the income of the Consolidated Fatal, iiieluding therewith the dutie on sugar, and of the charges thereupon in the year 18:,9, distinguished under the bead of receipt and expenditure ; and also an ettimate of the. same for the year 1815, showing, in each ease, the .urphis applicable to the supplies voted by Parliament. "Account showing the amount of the Deficiency Hi i,s charged on the growing pm. dime of the Consolidated Fund Old oanding, unsatisfied on the 14th day of February 1839 and the 14th day of Felawv:y 1840, respectively. "Account showing the stuplits or delicieney of the net Income of the United King• dm, compared lvith the Expentl,ture thereof, (exclusi‘e of the charge for a fixed sittlting.fuLd, while such was imposed by law,) iu each the live years preceding she 5th day' a January 18,t1, and also in each of the live yeas preceding the 5111 clay d Jemmy 1840. " Account showing the total amount of the Funded or Unfunded Debt created, and also of the Funded or Unfunded del.t extinLuislicd, in each of the three years mud• ing the Itb day of Jaimary 1840; distinguishing the Suck created in lien of Exchequer Bills cancelled, Leine life pro.Mce anionic,: invested by ,tring. banks. "Account of the t ;mow; of the Unfunded debt outstanding on the 5th &ye( January, 5th day of April. 5111 day or duly, and 10th day of Oetoher, to each of the years 18:t7, 18.18, and 18;c9; stating the rate of interest en Exchequer Stills issued at of about the same periods, the current rates of premium or 11,seount on the same in the public market, and the prices of the Three per Cont. Consolidated Annuities. "Account of the total net Income and Expenditure of the United Kingdom in each of the twelve years between the Oth day of .lanenry tct,8 :cud the 5th day of January 1840 ; in continuation of tl,e nee,amt annexed to the Fourth Itepoit of the Committee on Finance in I8t18, wherein dm same is exhibited from the year 179.:. " Account showing the blot sums expended for the service of the Army, Nary, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous in each of the twelve years between the 5th day of January 1828aud the 5th day January 1840.

Mr. Berries said it was necessary for him to request attention for some time, as he entertained no doubt that the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer intended to oppose his motion. There was no objection to pro. duce most of the accounts be called for ; but Government refused to give a return of the estimated income of the Consolidated Fund for the year 1840. If the finances of the country were in an ordinary condition, or if Ministers, in return for the forbearance they had expe- rienced from the Opposition, had offered candid statements of the financial prospects of the country, Mr. Herries could never have pressed them with this motion. 'But, notwithstanding the repeated solicitations for information last session, Ministers allowed July and August to pass away without a complete financial statement, and only produced it when most Members had left town. He acknowledged that the Conservatives were in some degree obnoxious to Mr. Hume's reproach of not assisting him to press the Government on the subject of finance ; but they considered it wrong in any way to increase the monetary and commercial embarrassment under which the country had laboured during the last two years. That motive for reserve no longer existed, for Lord Melbourne and Lord John Russell had both described the financial condition of the country in words far more forcible than he could use. Mr. Herries read an extract from Lord Melbourne's speech on Lord Ripon's motion in the House of Lords, in which the Premier fully ad- mitted year after year a deficiency of revenue as compared with expo• diture, and that the time had arrived when it was necessary to look in the face of the difficulty and the danger and earnestly apply a remedy. Lord John Russell had said on a recent occasion, that the imposition of fresh burdens on the country might perhaps be required to maintain the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, in a condition suitable to the character and dignity of the country. Well then, it was admitted that it was in- dispensably necessary for the House of eommons to meet this most dan- gerous and most arduous state of . boldly in the face. It would be

alleged that his demand was unusual. It was so, and it was painful that after twenty-six years of peace, it should be necessary to make such a demand. It was not, however, unprecedented. Lord Ripon had not withheld similar information ; and during the three years he had taken a humble part in the administration of the finances, a statement of the finances had been laid on the table of the house in the February of each year. Lord Althorp had done the same in the first session that

he acted as Chancellor of the Exchequer. But Lord Monteagle bad given them a budget in July, another little budget in August, and again another statement laid before the House of Lords first and afterwards furnished to the House of Commons. Mr. Herries wished the Chan- cellor of the Exchequer distinctly to understand, that he asked for no disclosure of secrets. Ile did not wish to know what new taxes were to he imposed, or the balance of Exchequer Bills remaining out, or how they were to be paid off: but the House and the public had a right to the information as to the income and means of the country, which the

papers be moved for would supply. It was universally felt that the finances of the country were, he would not say in an inconvenient—

that was too slight a term—but in a deplorable condition. In every society, and among all persons with whom he conversed, there was the strongest manifestation of alarm on this subject. It was not his province to make a financial statement to the House of Commons ; but, le support of his motion, he felt bound to let the House know the real state of the case. He found that in the year 1837, the deficiency of re- venue to meet expenditure was 726,000/. ; in 1838, 440,000/. ; in 1839, 1,512,000/.—together 2,678,0001. From the best information he could get—seeing that there was an increase in the Navy Estimates of

500,0001.—he felt justified in assuming that the deficiency for 1S40 would be 2,000,0001.; which would increase the total deficit at the end of 1840 to 4,678,000/. Then there was the great question of Post- case revenue : having some acquaintance with the Post-office depart- ment, he ventured to calculate the loss arising from the change in the rates of postage at from 1,200,0001. to 1,400,0001. Add the smaller sum to 4,678,0001., and the deficiency would be nearly six millions. Was this a state of things under which the House should remain quiet? Was it a state of things which justified the House in allowing the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take his own time and pleasure for stating•how he meant to deal with this increasing deficiency ? He could not pass over the extraordinary misconduct of the Government in reference to the Post-office question. With a full knowledge of the financial difficulties existing and sure to arise, they introduced a new system, by which the revenue was certain to be diminished to a large extent; and this they did, not from any conviction that the measure was a good one, but merely in consequence of the circumstances in which they were temporarily placed. Lord Melbourne's excuse for it was the difficulty of withstanding a general demand for cheap postage but Ministers knew they would have received the support of the Con- servatives against a measure to increase a deficiency in the revenue. Aud now, how was the Government to be carried on ? By means of peace-loans—than which he could not conceive a more dangerous ex- pedient. Again and again had Ministers been warned, by Mr. Goul- burn and others, that it was a dangerous practice to sacrifice revenue to popular demands for the reduction of taxes, and that there was a great difference between continuing old taxes and imposing new ones. Mr. Goulburn had reduced taxes to the amount of 6,000,000/. or 7,000,000/. annually ; but he always provided against the possibility of a deficient revenue ; and he left a surplus to his successor, Lord Althorp, of 3,000,000/. A different principle—that of having a small surplus—had since been noted upon ; and the consequences were lamentable. He did not think that the resources of the country were diminished, and he believed that Parliament would repair the evils which the folly of Go- vernment—want of firmness, judgment, and skill—had brought upon it The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. F. T. Baring) replied to Mr. 'ferries : but the reporters complain that many of his sentences were indistinctly heard. He admitted that, of course, motives of the purest patriotism influenced Mr. Herries ; but nevertheless, he could not conceal from himself the fact, that if Mr. Herries had put in requis sition all his ingenuity to devise a course most embarrassing to those at the head of the finances, he could not have been more successful than lie had been in preparing. the present motion. Ile would state at once, that he objected to give the estimated income of the Consolidated Fund for the year 1840 ; the other accounts he would willingly produce. He had ban a pressed with the precedents of Lord Ripon and Lord Al- thorp ; but Mr. Herries must know that when those noble lords had the control of the finances, the financial year commenced in January, not in April. It was not a case of compulsion at all; and the practice, moreover, was loudly condemned by all parties, as most inconvenient. Even in times of war and of the warmest opposition, returns such as Mr. Herries required had never been demanded, and never granted by Government. It was a principle in the conduct of the affairs of au in- dividual, to ascertain the amount of income first, and then cut down expenditure to meet it ; but the contrary rule obtained in the manage- ment of a nation's affairs ; the amount required for the services of the year having been ascertained, it was the duty of Government to provide that amount, whatever it might be. This was the principle laid down by Mr. Herries himself before the Finance Committee. Now, it was at all times difficult to arrive at an estimate nearly accurate of the probable laconic; but at times like the present, that difficulty was very much augmented. The income must necessarily very much depend upon the Spring trade, and the receipts from the Customs and Excise. With respect to the Post-office, a sense of duty alone compelled him to with- hold information ; and he would take care not to utter by word of mouth what lie would not put upon paper. It was impossible to arrive, without more experience, at a probable estimate of the deficiency to arise from the Post. office experiment. In reply to Mr. Herries's statement respect- ing the increase and decrease of the Debt, he would read a statement showing the real state of the case— On the 5th January 1831, the amount of Funded capital was 757,486,997/. ; on the 5th January 18:39, the amount was 761,347,6901. ; showing an increase of the Flunk,: Debt of 3,860,693/. On the Sth January 1831, the amount of capital Unfunded was 27,271,656/.; on the 5th January 1839, 24,655,30W.; showing a decrease of 2,616,350/., and showing tog-ether a total increase on capital Debt of 1,24-1,343/. Thus stood the course of the Whig Government, which had difficulties to deal with which no filmier Government had to sustain. There was an addition, under their Administration, of not less than twenty millions to the Public Debt, and this effected not by any financial arrange- molts of the Ministry—not by any of the mismanagement of which the right honourable gentleman talked so much, but added fur the purpose of freeing our fellow subjects from slavery. Mr. Baring then read several comparative accounts of expenditure tinder Tory and Whig Governments, to prove that the Whigs had been most economical for the country. Ile concluded by declaring his conviction that Parliament would vote whatever stint was required ; and lie would not himself shrink from the unpopular task of calling upon the House to redeem its pledges and provide for the public service. Mr. CIOULBUItS observed that no answer had been given to Mr. Berries. Th ere were precedents flir acceding to the motion ; but it' there were no such precedents, the alarming state of the finances was a sufficient justification of the demand for inthrmation. He entered into

defence of the financial measures of the Duke of Wellington's Ad- ministration, by which a reduction of the Debt to the extent of 20,000,000/. had been made. He was convinced that the real motive for concealing the present state of affairs, was the hope that some un- foreseen circumstance would arise to put them in a better position.

Mr. HumE said, that the House must be prepared to encounter great difficulties. Besides the deficiency of six millions, they must expect a serious falling-off in the tea-duties, and in the duties on spirits occa- sioned by the spread of temperance—a large portion of the Irish people were abandoning whisky. Mr. Hume complained that the Tories op- posed his motions for reducing the expenditure. He protested against the doctrine that the Estimates were to be first voted and the ways and means found afterwards. He acknowledged that, from the hope he had entertained that Ministers would improve, he had not lately been so troublesome with motions for reducing taxation and expenditure as he was formerly. He regretted that Ministers should oppose the mo- tion : it gave the impression that they wished to conceal something.

Mr. LABOUCIIERE denied that any Parliamentary grounds had been stated, or any valid reason assigned, why the House should assent to the novel and unprecedented demand made by Mr. Herries.

Sir GEORGE CLERK replied to that part of Mr. Bating's speech which related to the comparative expenditure of Whig and Tory Administra- tions; contending that a correct statement would be favourable to the Tories.

Mr. ILemuEs spoke a few words in reply.

Mr. W'ss n t- ;TOX endeavoured to address the House, but was inaudible amidst loud cries of "Divide!" . And a division took place, with the following result—

For the motion 182

Against it 172 Majority against Ministers 10 The Opposition cheered loudly on the announcement of these num- bers.

CHURCH-RATES.

Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMEE, on Tuesday, brought this subject before the House Of Commons, in connexion with the ease of John Thorogood. He reminded the House, that at the close of last session the following resolution had been adopted- " That it appetite to us, by certain papers laid before this House, that John Thorogood, a Protestant Dissenter, has been confined in her Majesty's county gaol of Es,iex since the 16th day of January last, for neglecting to appear in the Consistorial Court of the Bishop of London, for the rem-payment of as. fid., being the an-Tunt of clam:It-rate lissessed upon hint for the parish of Chelms- ford; and it is the opinion of this House that it will he the duty of the Legis- lature, at the earliest possible period of the next session of Parliament, to make such alterations in the existing laws for lanyieg ('Larch-rates, as shall prevent the recurrence of a like violence being yVvr :t.11:1 indicted. upon the religious scruples ,)t that portion of her Maj,.-tv's it-;t= who conscientiously dissent from the lite, or doctrines of the Esta'■ii,he,i The opponents of Church-rafes ought to lea irivi i d into two classe,— Churchmen, who thought the revenues of the E-,aniishment sufficient for its maintenance without the levy of compals9ry rates; and Dissent- ers, who conscientiously objected in contribute to the ernansents of a wors,hii, nut their own. Ile intended to move f leave to brin in a bill to relieve from the payment of Church-rates that portion of her Majesty's subjects 'who emiscientionsly di.,:sent from the rites or doc- trines of the Established Church." His bill pnovided for the immediate dischar:fe of Thorogood and all other persons in ea:study for non-pay- ment oi Church-rates, or for contempt of any Court ; also to prevent any future proceedings for the recovery or Church-rates from persons m ho had made the following declaratbm of dissent from the Church before a Justice of the Peace ; the pro Me don of the Justice's certificate that such a declaration had bsen made, to be pleaded in bar of any action for three years from its date- " I A. B. do solemnly declare that I am not of the communion of the Church of England as by law established, :ml that in my conscience I do dis- sent therefrom; and do also solemnly declare that in objecting to pay Church- rates, Ida so from no pecuniary- motives, but salely and sincerely for conscience' sake. (Signed) " A. B." He had founded his measure on it suggestion in a most able article in the Edinburgh Reciew for October. Part of his article. describing the indecent scenes which Church-rate struggles gave rise to, was read by Mr. Duneombe ; who referred to proceedines of Margate, where a rate had recently been rejected, in illustration of the Reviewer's remarks. Against 31r. Thorogood's character nothing w,irse could be stated than that he was a political partisan. His unmoral eharacter was good, and he suffered for conscience' sake. Mr. Duncombe hoped, he should not hear any attempt to ridicule Dissenting consciences— If the question of conscience was to he discussed, where was- that, he asked, of the rector of Chelmsford, under whose authority and sanetion this individual

was imprisoned lle could 1101 understand of what mat...rials his conscience was composed, who day after day would call upon his congregation to suppli- cate mercy trout the Almighty 1111,111 prisoners and captives, and could yet be the cause of a captivity like this. But he hoped that it Iva,: not necessary for

Mat any longer to detain the he did not think that any opposi- tion would be offered to the motion 1\11i.11 he intended to submit to its con- sideration. He knew that all those Dissenters. as well as Churchmen, by whom its provisions load been seem had given them their appruh.uiuu. and he trusted that her Majesty's Ministers, when they had also impfired into them, would take this great and important question out of the hands of so humble an individual as himself.

He concluded by movims for leave to bring in the bill.

Mr. Gmt.ox, on seconding the motion, censured the oppressive pro- ceedings of the clergy of the Church of Scots std m collecting the Annuity-tax. Lord Jolts; Russin.t. could not agree with _Mr. Duncombe that Tho- rogood was suffering for conscience' sake in a cause which entitled hint to sympathy and support. He was imprisoned for declining to appear before a regularly-constituted tribunal. Now, NV hati'e en an individual's private opinion might be of any law or any tribunal, 01A...he:lee to lawful authority must be yielded by bins or he must suffer the penalty. As long as a state religion was maintained, the laws made to support it must be obeyed. No moral crime was imputed to Thorogood. He might be a very sincere supporter of the Voluntary principle ; but he was not at liberty to disobey 1110 law of the land. Lord John pro-

ceeded to state objeetious to Mr. Duncombe's bill-

Iu . the first place, there was the obvious temptation to fraud, by holding out a pecuniary benefit arising out of the avowal of conscientious dissent. He could very well understand the admission of a declaration, where the object of it was to admit the person making it to a participation in equal privileges to those enjoyed by other persons in the realm. Such, for instance, as the decla- ration requirot of certain -Protestants, in order to entitle them to the enjoy- ment of enjoyed by other Protestants, or the declaration required of Roman Catholics, in order to entitle them to certain immunities and privileges granted to them by act of Parliament. But hi those cases, the object was to entitle them to au equal share in benefits already enjoyed by others. In the present ease, however, the person making the declaration would, by so doing, entitle himself to a greater benefit. • As a member of the Established Church he would be obliged to pee the church-rate—to pay. certain stuns for the repairs of churches; but if' he declared himself a conscientious dissenter from the Established Church, then, 1,y making tt declaration to that effect, he could free himself from the pecuniary ohligatiou. So wit ht regard to this sum of 5s. Oa., which 1:Vc1".' wan of eyed station to John Thorogood in his parish svould be comp..11,:d to pay by law, Thorogood, according to the plan of the honourable gentleman. would be able to evade the paytnent by declaring ldm- self a con.cientious ni,senter. Here was obviously a pecuniary snare. A. man might be ostethibly a member of the Est,iblisbed Church ; but be might be a lukewarm member or inaferent, yet the temptation was held out to him to relieve himself front the payment of the 5s. lid. church-rate, by simply making a declaration that lie conscientiously dissented from the doetrirws of the Cherrh. ("Hear:" fr,,ni )1i. .) fume.) The honourable Member for lakenny ti4ht possibly hove soma very good argument to offer in contradiction of what be had s:lid ; but he really could not see what could be urged in support of their thus setting up in bribe to induce persms of a luke- warm attachment to the Church to abandon it. Independent of all other ob- jections. there was one great objection to a measure of the kind, on the broad principle that there on...dit not to be created a distinction between those typo were and those who were not menders of the Church. When any public bur- den was proposed—whether of tithes or one other—it was always imposed equally on all the subj,q.ts of the Crown; and it was upon that principle alone that au Established Church could be maintained, because an Established Church was assumed to be tbr the common good of the whole—that was the principle on which an Established Church could alone be asked for. Ile for one would Fay, that he world be sorry to see the time when those who preached the gospel in this country would be obliged to look for support to the voluntary contributions of their congregations. Ile could understand, with regent to the lighter arts, tl.e principle embodied in those lines of Dr. John- son—

" The drama's laws the linnets patrons site, For those who l'ou to pkiso mast pleaiu to But sorry would he be to bear that

" tel urges Ana t, 1,r-••■ pee..eb to live." Sorry indeed would he be H. titme who tilled the pulpits now tilled by members of tice Established Church. were to become claimants on the voluntary contri- butions of their congregations on the score of their being taking, eloquent, preacher:.

Several attempts had been made to effect a settlement of the Church- rate question satisfactory to Churchmen and Dissenters; but they had all faihel, and he really did not see how the grievance of Church-rates could lie y; holly removed. lie was of opinion that the Ecclesiastical Courts were not the proper tribunals for the decision of cases arising out of disputed Church-rates. The payment was purely civil, and asedeslestieal Courts ought to take no cognizance of It. He also thought that proceedings for the recovery of the rates ought to be against the goods, not the Terse.] of the recusant., He was ready to

introduce or support a measure to effect alteration3 of the exist- ing law. but would oppose Mr. Dttn...,mtbe's bill, which was not founded on sound principles, and was eakeleted to lead to dangerous conse- quence

Mr. Mm; regretted that Lord John Russell should have arrived at

such f! conclusion : and he was surprised that the noble lord should have disavowed all svmpathy fhr Thorogood suffbring the punishment of a fel, in f■e• opposithm to a cruel and unjust law. No cause had ever teen carried without martyrs, and John Thorogood had been and -would he a martyr in this cause. What was the main objection to this

forsooth, that Churchmen would abandon the Establish-

ment to escape the payment of 5.s. eat. or aa. Oil.: Such was Lord John Russell's confidence in the attachment of Churchmen to the Establish- ment. Lord John professed great desire to uphold the respectability and influence of the Church, but he refused to remove the most fruitful cause of discontent with the Establishment. Did lie think that the small alteration he proposed wield give satisfaction, or that the people would accept such a eompronise Thorogood was opposed to the laws and institutions of the 0,11!!::y regarding the Church no doubt—hut did he stand alone? 1,...,1. ti -,totland-

What were one-11:11f of the clergy of Hugged doing at the present time ?

They leu;shed at the authority of the mewl-r-ses,,ions, and they defied the Plot. , of Lords. They Isitejd to aet on tonscientions scruples—they threw all otle r considerations on one ,ble—and they were still determined to resist the ims ss"en of any per-ma pr,,esied hg the patrons of livings, and therefore as inueb mitled to the:, livings the limit was to Church-rates. Why did not the noble lord grapple with these peNom ? Because John Thorogood was it r 5.111,t :101,10 TONI had no sympathy for him, but he did en- tertain ,yinpathy for the: elergy in Scollatel. Ile would tell the House the reason u fiv. ‘..: a gaggle ad, simple individual. but time Scott;-1. clergy formed It po,i. rfol roly, who were tearing the country up. Indeed, peeceedines were oo'ma nit v Mel, were disgraceful to the country. He match d that the prooe.sliny:s \ems• delmt as much hurt to the Church as ever John Fret had Mom to the Stste. Their language was as violent. and their pr.,reemling were in dulimee of 1f- law. What more had John Prost

zoo, any of the I, wler- of the Chortbis ? They had not done so much

in r:;, I ly mi. IN leg the Imo, and e%les t how-olds to defy it, as these persons had e, tm. Ile I ep,alud 11.e 1 i.• • iii mpatimized with the Scotch clergy bees.; • tim■ e brit not ..vtlipatIlize with John Thorogood, bee,: he vs. p. loiec;.,. The noble lord abolished Cimrell-raCe, in

Ireluml—why 1 Lleese o• emild not help it. It was now ,eventeen years

since 1 alp 1 a FY' itien si r,, d by 1111 classes in Irchdal,

Churl t the m mutt I hi— I wee not more than 76,0oot. per

annum. .13 the ot, by the noble lord when introducim, the melt-

Euro b,r tio• omi %.1hOlics from the payment of Church-rates,

, lomotit trimtien. 'Then it Was neces,ary to alloy th,00mm,t, ,o it it 's olisy diosnitent out'. were had not been collected in Sheffield for twenty years; and that in Leeds, Manchester, Leicester, and Nottingham, nobody was punished for re. fusing to pay Church-rates. Thorogood, unfortunately, lived in a smell place where the Church dared to enforce laws which were in abeyance in the larger towns. If the calculation made by Sir Robert Inglis were correct, the amount of Church-rates collected from Dissenters only amounted to 7,600/. annually ; and he would ask, whether for this paltry sum it was worth while to agitate the country from one end to the other? He blamed the Rector for prosecuting the poor man.

Sir RomenT Isom expressed general concurrence with Lord Jolla Russell, and was quite ready to share the responsibility of opposing the motion. He wished to put the House in possession of some eireem. stances respecting John Thorogood-

It had been stated that Mr. Thorogood was at first willing to appear before the Court, but that he had been dissuaded from it by the consideration of the great expense. That this was not correct, would be proved by a letter from Thorogood himself. On the 23d of November last there appeared a letter is the Sun from Thorogood, in answer to a memorial sent to Lord Normanby% Li that letter he said, " The memorial to Lord Normanby gives an entirely different impression of my refusal to appear to the citation issued against m from that which is the true one. The paragraph is as follows—' That be did not appear to such citation because of the expenses that would attend upon such a proceeding.' Sir, it was certainly urged by the gentleman whom I saw at the Patriot office, the secretary of the Church-rate Abolition Society, that it would be an enormous expense; but that which alone tempted me to give up my intention to appear anti contest the lawfulness of the rate was the assurance made to me, that if I did not appear, more good would be effected to the cam of religious liberty, which I have nt heart, than would be effected by my op. pearance to question the legality of the rate. In addition to this, Mr. Boykett assuted me, to use his own words, that they would move heaven and earth in the cause if I should be committed." He added, " I forgive my persecutors, as well as those who, by giving me false counsel, have led me into creator (nifty and suffering.—John Thorogood. Chelmsford Gaol, 23d November 1835." So that from this it appeared that he had been badly advised, and then neglected, until this grievance-gathering Socibty thought that his name and case would fbrm a good ground for speeches in and out of that HOUR; and then the circumstances of his imprisonment were cried up though the country.

With regard to the agitation of the entire country on this question, he could state, that out of 13,000 parishes in England and Wales, there were only 17 in which Church-rate contests were carried on.

DT.LUSIIINGTON explained, that it was entirely through his own fault or by his own choice, that Thorogood came within the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts. He was brought in the regular way before two Magistrates for non-payment of the rate. He disputed the right of the Magistrates to decide in the case, alleging. that the rate was invalid. He delivered a paper to the Judges, assigning reasons why the rate was illegal, and declaring his determination to dispute its vali- dity in the Ecclesiastical Courts— It was, therefore, by his own deliberate act and deed, by adopting this parti- cular mode of proceeding, that he was brought into time bonds, as he termed it, of the Ecclesiastical Court, and he had no person to blame but himself. Navin; done so, what did he do when he had appealed to the Ecclesiastical Court! He refused to appear ; and the consequence was, that in this, as in every other court, there was it purer of sufficient jurisdiction for contempt, and he had a decision made against him on a matter of Church-rates for contempt, and he was in consequence imprisoned.

It had been said by Mr. Baines that the law was differently admi- nistered in Chelmsford and in Leeds—

But what was the fact ? Why, at Chelmsford the people made a church-rate, whilst at Leeds there was not any rate. The Churchwarden, therefore, in the latter place, had no power to levy or collect a ehurchsrate; but the law was the same at both places. The inhabitants of Sheffield and Leeds chose to go on without a church-rate, and provided for the maintenance of the edifice of the church in a different way; but on that account could it be said that it was a hardship because there was a different state of things elsewhere, and a church- rate was levied?

Mr. IlAwEs referred to a recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Coin missioners respecting Church-rates-

At present they were, as they ever had been, altogether a voluntary contri- bution, which the majority of the vestry in any parish could refuse ; but the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if acted upon, would convert Church-rates into a statutable tax. This was a change which all the friends of religious liberty were bound to resist. At present, in one-third of the parishes of England, there were no Church-rates at all, the church repairs being paid out of voluntary endowments ; and in many other parishes these repairs were met by voluntary contributions.

Mr. WYNN ELLIS briefly supported the motion.

Mr. MILDMAY explained that the Rector of Chelmsford, his relative, had nothing whatever to do with the imposition or the collection of a Church-rate.

Mr. LIAISES withdrew the expressions he had used on the supposition tttdthe Rector had joined the Churchwardens in prosecuting Those- gMr. I)t:NCO:VIM hoped the House would not stultify itself by nega- tiving the resolution of last session.

A division took place—

For the motion 62 Against it 117 Majority SCOTCH COURTS OF JrsTICE.

Mr. Wamsacts moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the ad. ministration of the law in the &prone Court of Scotland, with a view to ascertain whether the number of Judges might out be diminished. his stated that a large decrease had occurred in the business of the Su- preme Court, and it was fit the I louse should consider whether under such circumstances the same number of Judges were required— It appeared from the returns laid 'Aloe the House, that five Judges in the Outer Home in 1r11-2, had 1,05ti causes belitre them ; in 183:---9, 1,486 MOWS, showing a diminu t hal of about one-thud Ii, or nearly 25 per cent. in the natiober of etoNes brought into court. The return Ibr the year 183940 showed an incrom:e upon the year of 72 causes, which, however, did nut ina- terielly alleet halt (Arida tiom With respect to tile Inner House. it appeared from the returns, that eight Judges sift Mg in the two Courts of Review de- cided 495 cause; fun 18:11-2, whilst in 1832-111 eight Judges, sitting in the same Courts oh' Review, decided only 288 causes, showitm to reduction of more than twu-fifths in their labour. The short period the Judges sit in court, and the vacations extending to six months at least out of twelve, would show that one Court of Review would be quite enough for the business of the country, and that uniformity of decisions would by this means be insured, the notorious want of which, under the present system of two Courts of Review with co- ordinate jurisdiction, would be provided against. By the return last laid on the table, the number of causes enrolled last year, for the first time before Lord iioncrieff (one of the oldest and most able judges of the Court of Session) was only 21n; whilst the new Judge, Lord Cuninghatne, in the same period, had 513 causes enrolled before him ; showing an increase of more than double the number by 81 causes, and showing also that one Judge did not perform one-half of the duty which another Judge could and did perform. With regard to the diminution of the number ofJudges, it would appear that sonic diminution might be made, from a consideration of the returns which had been just printed, showing the time during which the Judges of the Court of Session sat daily. It appeared that the first division of the Inner House sat, on an average, two bolus and forty-nine minutes daily ; and the second division two hours and eight minutes daily; making an average for both of less than two hours and a half, or a sitting from deceit o'clock to half-past one. It appeared that the Outer Court at from four to live hours daily, but, in fact, the average length of its sittings was less than four hours, or from nine in the morning to one o'clock. The five Judges of this Court who sat about four hours a day, did not go into court more than one hundred and fourteen days in the year. Their vacation was more than six months in the year, and the same might be applied to the Court of Review. It was the universal opinion of his countrymen that the periods for Which these Judges at was a great deal too short, and duet the length of their vacation was one great cause of the delay and expense incurred in their Courts.

Mr. Fox MAULE said, it was not the intention of Government to oppose the motion. An increase of salaries to the Scotch Judges had been granted last session, and the public had a right to know whether the strength of the Scotch Bench was greater than the business required. i Be was convinced that an impartial inquiry would satisfy the public that it was not greater. Having assented to the inquiry, however, Govern- ment ought to conduct it ; and he hoped Mr. 'Wallace would allow him to nominate an impartial Committee.

Sir GEORGE CLERK had hitherto voted against similar motions to the present, in conjunction with her Majesty's Government ; and no new

fact or reason for assenting to the proposed inquiry had been adduce Mr. Fox Maule had indeed alleged as an excuse for assenting to the appointment of a Committee, that the salaries of the Judges had been increased. He could not afford a greater triumph to the gentlemen who, in opposition to the Government, had last session argued that in- quiry ought to precede increase of salary : but Sir George Clerk's opi- nion remained unchanged as to the unprecedented proceeding which 'Ministers had been prevailed upon to sanction. The subject had al ready been thoroughly investigated by a Commission of inquiry, not consisting entirely of Scotch lawyers, but including such eminent men as Judges

Tindal, Littledale, and Alexander. Five years were never soared to elapse in Scotland without some important alteration— in IMO a great number of subordinate courts were abolished, and the number of Judges in the Court of Session was reduced from fifteen to thirteen. At the same, time the Court of Admiralty was abolished, as well as the Consistary Courts, and two Barons of the Exchequer were reduced. In two years more that Court was entirely abolished, and its business tens transferred to the Court cf Session. What was the consequence? It was felt in two years that from the temporary absence of two Judges, the Conit could not get through the but: nose, and an act was brought in by Lord Jeffrey, in 1832, to remedy the arrears occasioned by the absence of the Lord Ordinary. A Committee was appointed in 1834, on the motion of the Member for Caithness, to consider whether there should be any increase in the salaries of the Judges, their business having su greatly increased through the reduction of their number. In that Commit t,e the honourable Member for Greenock had put a question to all the Judge.,, win- ther a greater reduction in their number could be made, and every one had stated that in the present mode of proceeding any further reduction was im- practicable. Some of the witnesses were of opinion that the reduction had been carried too far, and that it would lie better to recur to fifteen. Lord Brougham had been examined on this point, and he had expressed a similar opinion. The only witness who was in favour of a further reduction, was a young writer of twenty-one. Was it likely that more competent witness,e, would be examined before the Committee now moved Mr, than before that of 1834? If the Committee were to examine all the must eminent lawyers at the Scotch bar, they would be of opinion that no reduction should he made, and the present Lord-Advocate would state, lie was certain, that no reduction of the Judges in the Court of Session could be mad without the greatest in- coneentenee.

He was quite at a loss to know by what arguments or information Lord John Russell and Mr. Fox Manic had been induced to alter their Course— It was true, Mr. Wallace had given notice of his motion before the late motion of want of confidence in the present Ministry, the result of which was then uncertain. The Member for Sheffield hat been induced to promise his support to the Ministers by the concession of open questions, and he should like to know whether the support of the Member for Greenock had been ob- tained by the, concession of this Committee. Ile knew not on what other round the Government hail changed their opinion.

Mr. Item; maintained that inquiry was most proper ; and Mr. GILLON said it was the only apology for consenting to increase the Judges' salaries. Mr. Pittxtax charged Mr. Wallace with utter ignorance of the extent of the business in the Supreme Court. Mr. I km.: considered the motion as tantamount to a censure on the Judges. Mr. Romer Srsatawr supported the inquiry, with a view to prove that the Judges were not overpaid or too numerous. Lerd- A Jvorate lit-rummy nn was of the same opinion, and voted for the Committee with the like intent.

Sir ROBERT PEEL condemned the conduct of Ministers. They professed to be convinced, to have intuit up their minds, that no reduc- tion of the number of Scotch Judges ought to lie made. Then wily not state the grounds of their1

Leterminat ion, and resist the motion ? A similar motion respecting the Ene:lish Judges might he made ; and Ministers might say to that too, " We hare made up our miuds :" but how could they oppose the moion ? It was a complaint against the Judges that they had refused to hear long law arguments, and had eta short counsel, saying their minds were made up. Mr. Wallace thought that this should be inquired into. Suppose the Judge were asked why he stopped the counsel, and should reply- " II you press me on that point, I must tell von that the counsel was to tedious that I thought he was consuming the public time, and really pre- venting the Court perthrtniug the duties which it owed to the pubiie.- Sir Robert Peel must say his leaning would be with the Judge. He could in,t conceive a Judge better performing his duties to the public, when his mind was made up, and when he heard counsel wasting the time of the court with frivo- lous matters, than saying, " Other cases are pressing, and my mind is satisfied on the question." Ile remembered a speech made by v Scotch counsel at the bar of the House of Lords of eleven hours lung, six hours one day and five hours the next ; nay, he believed three days were consumed in the argument. The LORD- A nvoc ATE—"Sixteen 11 WI (Litdpfilir.) Sir R. PEEL cm:tinned—When lie Fa:dell bours,the honourable gentleman, in his anxiety. Mr the honour of the Scotch bar, corr-Tted him by saying, "You do injustice to the Scotch bar ; instead of eleven hours. the speech was sixteen hours long." Could there lie any thing more ridiculous thancalliurontheseJudges to explain why, when they had made up their minds about the eighth or ninth hour, they should then tell the count el that the time of the Court was valuable, and that they begged permission to proneanee 'flair judgments, their minds Laving been made up some time before? What a den-tiling inquiry! The tensors assigned for the inquiry convinced him that the House would best per- form its duty, and best consult the dignity of the judicial functions of the Court of Session, by refusing the inquiry-.

Mr. Wam..tes; would tell the House that Ito was not to be cough with chaff. Ile would have the Judges' full time or half their salaries he preferred having their full time. As Rir the nomination of the Com- mittee, he was content to leave it in the hands of Government.

Motion carried, on a division. by 12S to n 1.

COMPTROLLERSHIP 01"111E EXCHEQUER : SIR JOHN _NEWPORT'S PENSION.

Mr. Lthom.t, moved for copies -of the warrant grantitn ff pension"

to Sir John 'Newport, and ef '• letters potent granting the office of Comptroller of the Exchequer to Lord .7.doviteagle." lie prefbeed his motion with an account of the anaingament by which Mr. Ellis, who, as Clerk of the Pells, had done the whole i,usiness of the Exchequer for 1,4o0/. a year, was removed, told his fall salary continued to him as a retiring pension the management of the department 11A ig confided to Sir John Newport, as Comptroller, with a salary of 2.000l. a year, aided

by a Deputy Comptrole7 Ivitit a salar, of i' year. Sir John

Newport was seventy-nin,? whe9 apia,ier e I ;,) fire years ago;

and he continued, notwithstae-dim ; .1g e, to ell charge the

ditties of his office till e:eptein'aw an arranzement very

convenient to all the parties court re, e evt: up his office to Lord Monteagle, and retired on a peisiun ot'ear. As, however,

it happened that the Comptroller of' the e• .;.ter was an ()Aker

specially excluded from reedivin:a a rceirle ; :el h. the act "to amend the laws reguhAng pensiou.: e. as nee, scary to resort to the Civil i.:st, and Sir : , eee• to the Queen for a pension of 1,o1 !, a year . year placed at

her majesty's dispo,...: for Thus it appeared, that tive--iN!lis e;' riLmtent fur the enewirtigement e, , 1,.,.tits of every description, Ott , t,..r• certainly not performed any gr.,!at public stir, t;,:,1 under the act empowering the t 'amen to c:,r to the

principal 011ieers Lord

Monteagle retired front the was therefore, no doul,t, very amp- trollership; but Mr. I 1.. ,,11: the

transaction, could not 31-1.) ' of' a Ministerial job. I!'

tnent. It remained .

butt its either ease the facts he had stated.

The CHANCELLOR of the ExonEoteee the most implicit an 't winch t, de':;! .ti :•, Newport hal beer i

of putting Lord .\ fole•eale .- On this point he N,

Sir joint Newport 1:::•—• . Newport better than of thirty years. that . r a. • follows c "fliat my Mt: appointment, and adept, per-on ntmt react:.:...:.

t%)

the I:ea:LIM:try einbarvis-... heavily :t very moder.,:e....

pell....1 me to look fm: • stance of that letter. 1 tory or the imput:iiio., mo-e whit the to him was I .1 —

1:11...,ition. It t •, the same stat,:invilf lis,1 the authority 1. ,r, :II.: • morning with 11,o- invnt,s.. Lord floe iek eet• , 111202S:11'. V. Lc, (1,31 N%i {t distinct denial. Mr. liarinie d the various re-. I, Irish Exeltispi, r, 5: , L as fully entiCti,ig. (,i. Lord" hisord

services as

fonteagle's imble friend hal nee e any

other man living. and flu:A hi .i,tro:lership of been in.ide.

the ner was the Cry Mr % 1 ! ton!: ulaet.

011 Lis (mil ii110i.`ation Late a id. :1 eopy of the le.tter coin tilting suet! it

Mr. hi.twet. sage., that i( itecessarL, it. tbe first place to knots whether smelt a letter reelly

ta give John

1 ..or r: muse ut upwards tuns as 'h:11 your

r S '••

o'Nett

cumstances, and at his advanced age ; but he objected to giving one person 1,0001. out of the 1,200/. allowed to the Crown for rewarding

merit of every description. lie saw no reason for the removal of Sir John Newport, since an assistant was provided to do his work. But, at all events, Sir John's services were not of the description to be re- warded with a pension from the Civil List. Those services were not of an oflicial but a Parliamentary character— It would be a dangerous principle to adopt, that mere Parliamentary services should be so rewarded. The limitation of such a principle could not

be determined. A powerful party lied a friend not holding any official station, but taking an active part in polities, liringing forward useful measures; but would such a circumstance entitle him to remuneration from the funds at the

disposal of the Crown? The Crown was the judge of official services performed,

but it would he dangerous to make it the judge also of those of a Parliamentary nature. Here was a special instance standing on its own grounds, and he thought that that authority \villa' had witnessed the useful and meritorious employment of the person to be rewarded, should also be the judge of the re- muneration to be given, and the claims of any person for services performed in Parliament should be recognized and attended to by Parliament, and not by any other power.

He considered that Mr. Liddell was justified in his motion, because, supposing Sir John Newport's pension to have been granted for the pur- pose of facilitating any political arrangement, a grosser or more scan- dalous perversion of authority could not have taken place.

Lord JOHN Ressms. thought that if any person had a clear claim to a large pension, that claim should be attended to, although, as in the present instance, it absorbed 1,000/. out of the 1,2001. allowed for pen- sions. He stated some eircumstances respecting the particular case of Sir John Newport— The fact was, tlmt Sir Jan Newport, in 183£4, was attacked with a severe illness, and expressed to Lord Melbourne a wish to retire. Lord Melbourne regretted the state of Sir John's and there was a possibility of his ill- ness assuming a more serious clturoeter, but he became better, and did not give up the duties of his office. In 1,-t39, however, his indisposition increased, and, after a 'prolonged stay abroad, he said that he could not return to England with

any conduct to himself. Sir lttl.t.rt. Peel had described this offiee very properly as one of no very great or vtry irksome labour, but it required an accurate knowledge of the financial tIttaifs, strict attention, and the greatest care that

no error should be committud. w Idle the Comptroller was in the management of the office. Ile thought, then, that they might easily determine whether a man of eighty-four years of age we.; well qualified to till such a situation ;

and he was of opinion that the Firs' Lord of the Treasury would not

lie justified in saying to a man in the position of Sir John Newport, who bad so long and so fltithildly served the public, that he must continue in office, when the effect of doing so might be to shorten the duration of his lire, and even to bring it to a sudden terminatiou. It appeared to him that the repeated remonstrance of Sir John Newport to Viscount Mel- bourne was quite sufficient to authorize the step which hailbeen taken. But Sir Robert Peel said that the Crown should not be allowed to be the judge of Par"--nentary services. Ile agreed with that as a general principle; but no one would think of making any objection if a distinguished statesman, being eat off in the middle of his career, a grant was made by the Crown to his rela- tions. But was it because the lire or Sir John 'Newport was prolonged beyond the usual time, that the remaining period of his existence should not be ren- dered comfortable ? Ile thought tint there was no reason why a pension should not be granted to him pers'nelly, instead of his relations. He should

say nothing further of Sir John Nt..V, port, after what had fallen from the right

honourable baronet, exc. it that he had acted with him for many years, and from peculiar eirculll,talICCS had known much of his labours in 1806, and that he did know that he had bestowed very great labour upon the subjects which had been relined to, and he believed that no less than nine Acts of Parliament, prepared by hir», had ptep,.epl during the short time during which he was in office. Ile must say, that many of them were nut of a party description, but that they referred to subjects in which he took very great interest, thinking that his native country would be benefited by his exertions. He thought, therefore, that after such services, Lord Melbourne had done nothing but what was perfectly right in recommending his retirement.

Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET asked whether there were no means by which Parliament could formally be put in possession of Sir John New- port's reason for his retirement?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not tell whether any reason had been as- signed or not— No communication had been made to him of that nature. All be knew was from the statement made to him hy Lord :Melbourne on the one hand and Lord Duncannon on the other. Lord Melbourne stated that he had received a communication that it was the wish of Sir Joint Newport to retire. Whether any letters passed as to the cause of his retiring, he did not know.

Sergeant Jaessox remarked, that as Sir John Newport was in Ireland at the time of his resignation, there probably was some letter.

Motion agreed to, without a division.

Pitivisser.

Lord Jona; RUSSELL, replying to a question put by Sir EDWARD &CODES on Tuesday, said lie was not prepared to state whether Govern- ment would introduce a bill respecting the publication of votes and pro- ceedings of both I louses of Parliament. Subsequently, Lord JOHN said that he would not then agree to any motion for the release of' the Sheriffs. A short time hefure the House rose, Sir EDWARD KNATCH- num, mentioned that he had seen Mr. Brookes, Sheriff Wheelton's medical attendant, who bad said that the Sheriffs life would be en- dangered by further confinement ; aml the surgeon was in attendance for examination. On Lord Jolla illessta.i.'s motion, Mr. Brookes was called in, and made a statement, coofirming Sir Edward Knatchbull's. Sir Roma PEEL would not consent to keep the Sheriff in custody for a single hour after henriIi!giiis surgeon's statement. The House agreed to discharge Sheriff Wleadron ; and, zieeording to the custom of the House on such occasions, without payment of fees.

On Thursday, Sir Em.wa Ito Svc Des; ask sd Lord John Russell, whether, having discharged one of the Si-riffs, he intended to keep the other in custody ? The two persons constituted (me Sheriff.

Lord Jon:: P t-ssEt.t. said, that the two persons constituted the one Sheriff' of Middlesex ; but there were two Sheriffs of London ; and although one of the latter had been released .on account of ill-health, he saw no reason for discharging the other.

The Lord Mayor, Alderman Johnson, and some members of the Common ( 'mtel!, appeared at the bar, and presented a petition praying for the discharge of the Sheriffs from custody, in order that, in com- pliance with immemorial custom, they might wait upon the Queen to ascertain when her Majesty would receive an address of congratulative on her marriage, voted by the Corporation of the city of London.

The petition was ordered to be taken into consideration next day,

Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from Messrs. Hansard; praying for the protection of the House against the new action brought by Stockdale. A writ of inquiry had been issued, to be executedee the 20th instant.

The petition was ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday.

A motion by Alderman Woon, that the Speaker should write to the officers of the Court and prohibit them from sealing the writ of in. quiry, was met by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL with " the previous ques. Lion;" -which amendment was carried, after some discussion.

MISCELLANEOUS.

TITHES. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL, on Wednesday, moved the second reading of a bill he had introduced for the amendment of the Tithe Commutation Act : it provided that tithes in kind should not be taken where the rent-charge had been fixed under that act. The me. tion was agreed to, and the bill referred to a Select Committee.

TILE SPIRIT LICENCES (SCOTLAND) BILL, supported by the Govern. meet, was rejected on the motion for the second reading, by a vote of 60 to 42.

DIVORCE BILLS. On Mr. LABOUCIIERE'S motion, all divorce bills were ordered to be referred to a Select Committee of nine Members, Mr. Hiram wished the jurisdiction in divorce cases to be removed alto. gether from the House. Sir ROBERT PEEL would retain for Perlis, meet the power of inquiry at the bar into all cases where fraud or cols lesion was suspected. Mr. Wanninierox would not agree to any measure -which made a difference in such cases between rich and poor— Tile giving to Parliament exclusively the jurisdiction in divorce eases, was to give to the rich an advantage, such as it was, from which the poor were en chided. It seemed to be an assumed axiom that Parliament, and Parliament alone, was to decide in such cases : but that would be making the law unequal': it would be making one law for one class, the rich, from any advantage of which the poor would be excluded. To that he would not be a party.

Motion agreed to.

CHINA Titans:. On Thursday, in reply to questions from Mr. GEORGE PALMER, Mr. LABOUCHERE stated, that although clearances were given at the Customhouse to vessels bound for China, Government would incur no responsibility as to what might happen to those vessels in China.

Mr. Hum: gave notice, that on the first motion of Supply he should move for papers relating to the affairs of China.

BREVET. In the course of a conversation on Thursday, between Lord GEORGE LENNOX, Captain PECUELL, Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN, and Sir HENRY HARDINGE, relative to the proceedings of the Military and Naval Commission, Sir HUSSEY Vivias stated that there would be no brevet on the occasion of the Queen's marriage.

LATE SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE. A motion by Mr. DROTHERTON,I0 prevent business being brought on after twelve o'clock at night, if ob- jected to by any Member, was negatived, by 145 to 25.

SUPPLY OF WATER TO TILE METROPOLIS. On the Marquis of WEST- MINSTER'S motion, a Select Committee of the Lords was appointed, on Thursday, to consider the means of improving the supply of water to the Metropolis. Lord Westminster wished to refer to the same Com- mittee the proposition for rendering the construction of railways more safe, and for improving sewers ; but, on the suggestion of several Lords, agreed to confine the labours of the Committee to the supply of water.