25 NOVEMBER 1837, Page 2

Debated an liraceeltingl in parliament. THE QUEEN'S SPEECH—THE ADDRESS.

QUEEN VICTORIA opened her first Parliament on Monday the 20th instant. The appearance of the House of Lords on this occasion was very brilliant. The number of Peers and Peeresses present was un-

usually large. The ladies occupied nearly all the gallery, as well as the seats appropriated to them in the body of the House. There was also a full attendance of the Foreign Ambassadors. Soon after two o'clock, the Queen entered the House in the royal robes, accompanied by the Dutchess of Kent, and attended by the Dutchess of Suther- land, Alistress of the Robes, Lady Barham, Lady in Waiting, the Earl of Albemarle, Master of the Norse, and other members of the Household. When seated on the throne, she was supported on the right by the Earl of Shaftesbury, holding the cap of maintenance, and by the Duke of Norfolk, as Earl Marshal, the Lord Chancellor, and

the Duke of Somerset, bearing the crown upon a cushion; on the left, stood Viscount Melbourne, holding the sword of state, Lady Barham, and other members of the Household: behind the throne were the Dutehess of Kent and the Dutubess of Sutherland ; and at the foot of

the throne, the Duke of Sussex and the Duke of Cambridge. Having taken her seat, the Queen desired the Peers to take theirs; and ordered the Usher of the Black Rod to summon the Commons. In a few minutes, the Speaker appeared at the bar, with the Sergeant- at-Arms, mid a crowd of Mrinheis, jostling each other for standing. room " Full, full!" and "Order, order !" being the undignified cries.

Silence having been obtained, the Queen repeated, atter the Lord Chancellor, the usual Declaration, and signed it. The Lord Chan- cellor then, on betided knee, presented the Queen with a copy of the Speech which her Majesty read, as follows, in a very distinct and audible manner—taking especial care to articulate clearly the letter r, and laying much emphasis on the passages which related to the pre- servation of peace, the fulfilment of the national compact with the Queen of Spain, and her own firm reliance on the love and affection

of the People.

" sty t.ad, and Geutlemen—I have thought it right to as.enthle you for the trans- 01.pui,lic lousiness at the e5liest cuuteuietit p rill :titer the itssulutiou of the '' It is uult great satislitetiott that I hate received from all foreign Powers the %tr,algest ;1,11fallet'S of their fii. hub disposition, and or ;1;6; cal tiv.t desite to culti• luts slat mailitaitl %kith tile the irlatams ut unit) ; awl 1 a juice iu the prospect that I slots' be able to promote the best iitt. rests of n y is by secutiog W taein the advantages of peace. " I lament that civil war still afflicts the kingdom of Spain. I contlnee to exercise with fhlelity the engagemeuts of my crown with the Queen of Spain, beet Wing to the stipulation* of the Treaty of Quadruple Alliance. ° I have directed a treaty of commerce which I have concluded with the United Re. public of Pent and Bolivia to be Mid before you, and I hope soon to be able to comma. ideate to you similar results of my negotiations with other powers.

° I recommend to your serious consideratiun the state of the province of Lower Ca. nada..

" Gentlemen of the Honse of Commons—The demise of the Crown renders it me. eessary that a new provision should he made for the Civil List. I place unre- servedly at your disposal those hereditary revenues which were transferred to the ribhie by my immediate predecessor ; and I have commanded that such papers as way be necessary fur the full examination of Dos subject shall be prepared end laid before you. Desirous that the expenditure in this, as iu every other di part ment of tie Govertunent, should be kept within due limits, I feel confident that you will gladly wake adequate provision lire the support of the lemons and dignity of the Crown. fine E • t I la 'I t1•S for the services or next year are in cease of preparation. and will be laid befere you at the accustomed period. I have directed that the utnanit economy ,,huul l be enforced in every brat eft of the public expenditure.


M Lords :Ind Genthenen —The external peace and domestic tranquillity which at present happily prevail, are very favourable fur the consideration of sash measures or rer,,,,,rtion rind amendment is may be necessary or expedient; and your attention will mutually be ilk. quo,. to that course of legisl ttiou which was interrupted by the neces. sus dissolution of the last Parliament.

° The result of the inquiries which have been made into the condition of the poor in Deltoid has been alreat4 laid before Parliament, and it will be your dory to consult whether it may not be safe and wise to establish by law some well-regulated meaus of relief Mr the destitute in that country.

The municipal government of the cities and towns in Ireland calls for better regulation. The laws which govern the collection of the tithe composition in Ireland require revision and amendment. Convinced that the better and more effectual administra- tion ofjastice is amongst the first duties of a Sovereign, I request sour attention to those measures %shish will be submitted to you for the Improvement or the law.

You cannot but be sensible of the deep importance of these questions which I have submitted to you, awl of the necessity of treating them iu that spirit of impartiality and justice which affords the best hope of bringing them to a happy and useful


station. In meeting this Parliament, the first that has been elected under my autho- rity. I am anxious to declare my confidence in your loyalty and wisdom. The early see at which I am called to the sovereignty of this kingdom renders It a more impera- tive duty that, under Divine Providence, I should place my reliance upon your cordial cotirration, and upon the love and affection of all my people."

At the conclusion of the Speech, the Queen spoke a few words to the Dutchess of Kent, and then left the House.

The Commons retired to their own chamber; and the ladies and strangers soon departed. The Peers then adjourned to five o'clock.

At that hour, Lord MELBOURNE, as a commencement of business, moved the first reading of the Vestries Regulation Act; which form having been gone through, Lord Chancellor COTTENHAM read a copy of the Queen's Speech from the Woolsack; the Clerk read it over again ; and then

The Duke of SUSSEX rose and moved the Address-

" My Lords, did I not feel satisfied that the sentiments contained in the Speech delivered from the Throne this day, as well as the language employed in communicating them to you, were of a nature to preclude the necessity—I would almost say the possibility—of discussion, and were I not equally certain that the correspondent answer to that Speech which I shall have the honour to propose to your Lordships, for your consideration and approval, is one in which you may safely concur without compromising any of your opinions as to the manner of carrying into effect the objects alluded to therein, I should feel great hesitation in presentiug myself to your notice. My Lords, we can have but one object, and but one feeling—that of assuring our Sovereign of our loyalty and attachment to her person, of our readiness to meet her wishes, and give effect to her benign intentions, by devoting our most serious attention and considera- tion towards discussing those measures which are most calculated to promote the best interest of the country, and the welfare and happiness of our fellow subjects. Time and circumstances, my Lords, often give an additional conse- quence to events which of themselves are already of considerable importance : such I coiweive to be the case at the present moment. The annual opening of a session of Parliament is always an object of great interest, when considered as one of the constitutional modes by which the Sovereign comes into immediate contact with the other two branches of the Legislature ; and when, in addition, one reflects upon the consequences which may result from such communication, involving the consideration of measures in which the welfare of the people, as well as private interests, are most deeply concerned. If such be the case in the centurion march of human events, how greatly is that importance increased by a new Parliament being called together—whether it be occasioned by the usual progress of its course towards a termination, or from Ministerial changes, when the Sovereign wishes to ascertain the free opinion of the nation ; and more par. tieularly so when the necessity of the measure is in consequence of the demise of the Crown ; the law of the country being imperative, that upon the decease of the Sovereign a new Parliament shall be summoned after the expiration of six months at the latest. This, then, is the position in which we are placed at this juncture of time ; and when, besides the observations which I have made, we advert to the age of our youthful Queen, ascending the throne of her ancestors by the right which the constitution has given, and that at the expira- tion of one month only after the period fixed by the statutes for considering the Sovereign of age and capable of assuming the reins of government, I cannot but hope that your Lordships will agree with me in seeing the propriety and the duty imposed upon us to avail ourselves of the earliest opportunity of ap- proaching her Majesty with the assurances of our devotion to her person, of our determination, by our counsel and advice, to give that support to the Crown which will enable it to maintain the rights and liberties of the people, as well as its own dignity."

The Duke then touched upon the several topics of the speech ; carefully avoiding allusions arid expressions which might give the slightest offenee to any member of the House. He referred with great satisfaction to the declanstion of the Duke of Wellington at the close of last session, that he was desirous of aiding in the settlement of the Irish question, also to the testimony the Duke had borne to the value of the Poor-law and its successful operation. The affectionate reception the Queen had met with from the immense concourse of her subjects assembled on the 9th of November to witness her progress to

the City, had been a source of the highest delight to his Royal High- tl ss ; and he trusted that the Peers were prepared to manifest by their acts a similar devotion to their Sovereign. In conclusion, the Duke reminded the House of a circumstance which gave to himself and the Duke of Wellington and the Archbishop of Canterbury a peculiar in- terest in the welfare of the Queen-

" I have addressed you, my Lords, with the view of testifying to my niece and my sovereign my loyalty and my affectiou ; and, independently of this, I Lave done it front my feelings of affictian for the Duke of Kent, her dear and Luueli:ed father, whose kindness I never can forget. And I must be per- orate.' further to observe, that I, with the illustrious Prelate now the head of the Chinch, and the noble Duke then President of the Council, were among the first to witness the birth of that illustuuus pi toe.•-s I trust th tt use interest which the noble Duke feels in her will lead him, ins, to co.yerate in the promotion of the measures to which I have referred. My Lords, I have done. I hope that your Lordships will allow this Address to lie read by the Clerk ; for the state of my eves, my Lords, is such as to prevent me from se doing ; and with confidence I submit it to the consideration of this House."

The Address having been read by the Clerk,

Lord PORTMAN rose to second it. He said that he felt sensibly the dis- advantage of following the Duke of Sussex; as any thing which he could offer to the consideration of the House must be of little or no weight in comparison with what they had heard from the illustrious Duke- "i cannot but feel, looking at myself individually, that among all your Lordships I should have been the last to have been selected for this honour ; for, my Lords, I must confess it to be a high honour to he allowed to second the illustrious Duke upon this oecasiata in moving the tirst Address to her Majesty from this blouse—or, I orielit rather to say, the first Address from her first Parliament. I cutout, my Lmruls, but he to bell, ve that i have been called to this task more out of complinucht to the inhabitants of this me- tropolis than to myself. I say this, my Lend:, because you will all be aware that I am the only oile of your Lordships' House who has ever been intrusted with the representation of any part of the constituency of this great town. Looking, then, at my situation as a compliment intended to them, I trust that your Lordships will feel that I have not improperly accepted of the honour proposed to me."

Lord Portman then went over the principal topics of the Speech ; dwelling on their importance, and recommending a calm and dispas- sionate consideration of the measures.,.which Government would pro- pose. With " humble submissioe," ':s begged to second the Address.

The Duke of WELLINGTON asset ed to the Address with great satisfaction ; and would follow the example of the Duke of Sussex

and Lord Portman in abstaining from every remark that could awaken party feeling. He congratulated the House on the prospect of una- nimity. He perfectly well recollected the interesting event to which the Duke of Sussex had alluded; and trusted that during the remain- der of his life he should behold her Majesty prosperous and happy. He could assure the illustrious Duke, for whom he was anxious to express his high respect, that with regard to the measures for ths settlement of the Irish questions, and the Poor-law, he had not by any means changed his opinions. The Address was agreed to, and ordered to be presented with the usual forms.

On the motion of Lord Mesrornsre, the Earl of Shaftesbury was appointed Chairman of Committees ; and the House adjourned.

In the House of Commons, after a brief adjournment, the Speaker took the chair a few minutes before four o'clock. Several Members were sworn in ; and numerous notices of motions (mentioned else. where) were given.

The SPEAKER then informed the House, that, " to prevent mis- takes," he had procured a copy of the Queen's Speech ; which be read.

Lord Levesom then moved the Address ; and delivered a cento of commonplaces. He urged the House to settle a liberal Civil List, if they wished to avoid future application for the payment of debts in- curred by the Crown.

Mr. GIBSON CRAIG seconded the Address ; but with distressing embarrassment of manner, and in a tone of voice so feeble and falter- ing as to be unintelligible.

The Address having been read from the Chair, Mr. Harvey and Mr. Wakley rose together. There were numerous calls for each ; but finally the SPEAKER called upon the latter.

Mr. WAKLEY said that he rose to discharge the humble duty of acquainting Ministers that they bad some Radical supporters in the House ; a circumstance which, he regretted to say, they seemed to have entirely forgotten- " I have seen several copies of the Speech ; but until I heard it read from your lips, Sir, I did not believe it was the Speech which her Majesty delivered from the Throne. I am disposed to ask, after that Speech, a question of the

noble lord himself and of his colleagues. I wish to ask for what purpose her Majesty's present Ministers were so anxious iu 1833 to eject the right honour-

able baronet from office? (Loud cheers from the Tories.) I feel bound in honour and candour to ask the question ; and I hope that in the course of the night's debate, her Majesty's Ministers will answer the question as frankly at I

put it them. I came into the House to support the cause of the People and not the cause of faction or party. Party and faction have been the curse of this country for centuries ; and if we follow the course which her Majesty's Minis- ters this night have marked out, it is not likely that we shall be relieved from this curse. When the right honourable baronet opposite produced his Speech in 1835, the friends of the present Ministers told him that the Speech from the

Throne dealt in vague generalities—that there was nothing specific in it, and nothing to satisfy them what reforms the right honourable baronet intended to propose. They have nose got their friends in office; and there can be no reason for their not s tying what reforms the country r ee ls, and what specific reforms they propose to effect. But they have omitted miry thing of the kind front their Speech ; they are entirely silent upon these subjects ; nor is there a single enunciation of one of their reforms in the whole Speech (" No, no 1 ..) I say yes ; I have the speech in my hand ; and I must say more, that I never read a speech from any sovereign of this country more vague, more general, of less precise. (Cheers and laughter from the Tory benches.) He advised the Tories not to cheer too much : he had no wish to see them in office. On the contrary, he desired to do Ministers a real service. He looked upon Ministers as squeezable commodities, from which some good might be pressed ; hilt the gentlemen of the Opposition were petrilactione, out of which nothing good could pos. sibly be moulded. Mr. 1Vakley then quoted passages from the speech of Lord .bun Russell, when leader of the Opposition to Sir Robert Peel's Go. :invent in 1533, which showed that Lord John called for a clear statement of various reforms requited by the people, and warned the House that, "by an implicit acquiescence in every thing suggested by the Crown, tbere was danger of losing the essence of Reform." Now, Mr. 1Vakley wished to know where was the specific and distinct mention of reforms required by the people in the Speech delivered that day from the Throne ?

" We all have collie fresh from our constituents ; then are you not aware that the voters of nightie' require protection? Cheers.) is the *Nord Ballot in the Speech ? (Laugh r, r from tht. Opposition.) The Meitibers on that side of the House may laugh. The Speech is just such a one as you yourselves would have made on a similar occasion. Instead of feeding the People with the wombs of charity, I claim for them political rights. At the commencement of a oew reign, with a young Queen, educated as ours has been, the People were entitled to expect that something more explicit should have appeared in the Speech. I will ask, Sir, is the elective franchise extended enough ? I say ao; and the People of England, Ireland, and Scotland say no. They grind their teeth under the infliction, and I ant afraid will never be relieved without the introduction of their grievances specifically into the Address: I do not


expect that I shell get that done on the present occasion ; but I think it right the People should know what is the disposition, what arc the feelings of the Moue, and what there is reason to expect at their hands. We have all just come from the hustings, where even you, gentlemen, (the Tones) were Liberals. (Luny/der.) At Liverpool, and indeed throughout the whole county'', the seine language was used—all were there the friends of the People, 'et as soon an any eperific proposal is brought forwent, nearly all of us fly from it, and Dave the People at the mercy of the Aristocracy."

Lord Sandon and other Tories, in electioneering speeches, had ex. pressed their delight that the oper:tives were corning forward and taking a part in politics : and to be consistent, they should support him in endeavouring to obtain an extension of the suffrage. Ministers aught see that the Tories were cutting the ground from under them ; but be would test the sine. i ity of both patties by moving an amend- ment, in general terms, in favour of an extension of the suffrage. He shnel1 be glad to know how Ministers expected to maintain themselves

oi,ice? Where was their majority? At most it was 23 or 30, and might dwindle to a minority. Was a coalition intended? Were the two parties, who had been so long opposed, to unite in a friendly em- brace? In that case, the opposition to the Government of Sir Robert Peel in 1835 assumed a fattier character. Contrasting Sir Robert's declaration in 1835 with the prA)fises in the Speech they had that day beard, Sir Robert appeared quite a Radical Reformer. What was there in the Address that should induce a Radical Reformer to support it? Nothing. It was plain that the Tory aristocracy were resolved that the principle of the Catholic Relief Bill should not be carried out ; and unless the Ballot and extension of the suffrage were granted, the Irish reforms mentioned in the Speech would be brought forward in vain. The Tories had made the Catholic Relief Bill a dead letter, and their aim was to make the Reform Act a dead letter also. Hence their expenditure during the late election, and hence the Spottiswoode conspiracy. [From what follows, Sir Francis Burdett seems to have

smiled at this remarkj- He saw an honourable baronet on the other side of the House smile, who ex- ceedingly resembled a gentleman sonic years ago his Representative ; but it could nut be the same, for the remains of that venerable old man were buried in Wiltshire. (A lough ) That honourable baronet was his political sire— with whom be bad winked in the cause of Radical Reform in 1818, 19, and 20: he had great difficulty in restraining his eagerness in the cause; and in fact he did bring forward resolutions in that House in favour of universal suf. rage, for minuet Parliament*, and vote by ballot.

Mr. Wakley trusted that Lord John Russell would say something that might dispel the gloom which the Queen's Speech 'had cast on

the Radical Reformers. It was a good Tory speech, and nothing

better. No Minister disposed to go into the field of Reform with a iron step and determined mien would have so addressed the House. There was no mention of the repeal of the Coru.iasys or the law of

Primogeniture—both grievances which ought to be redressed. His amendments, however, would not embrace those subjects. Ile in- tended to move three distinct amendments, in favour of nn extended

suffrage, the Ballot, and the repeal of the Septennial Act ; and he should move them separately, in order to relieve 'Members from the

necessity of making excuses for not voting on any particular proposi-

tion. When a number of subjects are blended in is single resolution, one Member would say, " I would vote for one, but not for the others —I am in favour of the Ballot, but am opposed to an extension of the star:lite." To obviate this objection, he should move each amendment nepteutely. He did trust, that, as a party, Ministers would not at any rate oppose the Ballot. But if they did not abandon the policy they seemed inclined to pursue, as surely as he stood there, political de- ettuetion would be their doom. Mr. Wakley then moved to insert in the Address the following clause— it That ibis flume embraces the earliest opportunity of respectfully assuring her Majesty, tl.at it will, in the present session of 1'arlianicnt, take into consi- deratiou the state of the representation of the people in this branch of the lagisletime with a view to insure by law an equitable extension of the elective Sir WILLIAM MoLeswoieru seconded the Amendment. The Speech from the Throne ought to state distinctly the course of policy intended to be pursued by the responsible Ministers of the Crown-

" lestead, however, of the Queen's Speech being what it ought to be, it was a bald, disjointed assemblage of welds, in which every phrase was in- tentionally obscure, from which the framers seemed carefully and successfully to bete laboured to exclude all sense and all argument, and to have kept in view but one einle Wee, namely, to frame a discourse about which all dis-

cussion 41, he impossible, as it should centain Ito topic for debate. The omie,ieee in the Speech which had just been read to the Clouse were most im- portmet, ni d be rejoiced most sincerely that an honourable gentlemen had isms ed au amendment to the Address for the purpose of supplying those semi., Mlle. Ile trusted likewise that her Majesty's Alinisters were prepared to scpply rise. had been omitted in the Speech by their acts during the session of Parl.,,•,, . and that they would make a declaration to that effect that night. The omiesious of which he complained were, that no reit:mace had been made to the evils of the present electoral system, or to the necessity of remedying theta. The annoyance, the expense, and the vexation caused by the system of registratien established under the Reform Act were now apparent to every one, and the a" stern could not long be ending). The elective franchise ought to be viewed as an obligation imposed by the Legislature upon the elector fur the advantage of the whole community, and the elector in properly exercising his franchise rendered an important service to his country. The Legislature ought, therefore. to facilitate, by every means in its power, the possession of the elective franchise to those who were entitled to it. As the Legislature re- quired a sit vice and imposed a mural obligation upon the elector, the ("teeter was jnetifie.I in demanding in return that the laws sLuld be studiously framed so es to protect him a: much as possible in the exercise of hie electoral rights; bat unit r tl.e pre-cot system every elector was exposed every year to a lawsuit twfore the revising bat Inter at the malice of every polities' enemy. lle need Lot ta..r to the cemluct of the Tories in the Registration Courts, or to haw coal. 'daily they hail followed the advice of the right honourable baronet. Ile need sot rtffr to their system of wholesale objections. In some cases they had ob. jetted to the majority of a constituency. For instance, in the town which he had the honour of representing, the Tories, at the last registration, objected to more electors than the whole number of those who voted for him at the election which had just taken place, a very small portion of which objections they were enabled to maintain. In every quarter complaints were beard of invidious and vexatious objections awl improper claims being made; and the experience of the last few years had convinced the great body of the electors that at least that portion of the Reform Bill must be amended which referred to the registration of voters. The events of the last elections had likewise produced the general conviction, that the Reform Bill had not attained its object of securing a real representation of the People, and that it had only reproduced in another shape and in a more aggravated form the evils of the ancient system of representation."

There was no reaction in favour of Toryism : the elections in the metropolis and in the large manufacturing districts, where the reaction would have been most conspicuous, proved, that the masses were inclined to good sound Radicalism. The demoralization and corruption which had existed under the old system bad been increased manifold under the Reform Act ; and he sincerely hoped that Ministers would reply to Mr. Wukley's motion by announcing their intention to bring in a bill to reform the Reform Act.

The question baying been put, the House was about to divide, when Mr. HUME rose, and said that before a division took place, lie trusted that Ministers would state their specific intention with respect to the points in question. All doubts us to their intended eourse ought to be cleared up by Ministers themselves. He was assured that the people would look with great distrust on a Queen's Speech which said nothing of Church-rates, and the reform of the Church itself. He wanted a candid, open, and manly statement from

ters, whether or not they intended that the Reform Bill should he carried out. The real support of Ministers was in the People; That

le ;luatt to retain that support, they must carry out the Reform illi measure was but an experiment ; and lie who called it a final measure, or talked of linal measures in a legislative assembly, was a tool. How the Reform Act had worked, might be seen from the state of the Opposition benches ; and unless protection in the exercise of the franchise were afforded, the Ministry must abandon all hope of sup- port from the People. He wished to know what Ministers intended to do with Canada; and whether the revenues of the Dutch:ee of Cornwall and Lancaster were to be given up by the Crown ; and what reductions would be made in the military establishment of the coni.try. With regard to the motion before the House, he thought it bad better be withdrawn. Justice would not be done to the questions involved in the amendment by pressing the motion to a division ; and there would be emple opportunity for the future consideration of them.

Mr. GROTE agreed fully in the substance of Mr. Wakley's amend. meats; but considered the introduction of them at that time inoppor- tune. Nevertheless, if pressed to a division, he should certainly vote for them. He was sure that the Ballot was necessary to sustain a Reform Ministry— How did the balance of parties stand in the present House? Was it not no. torious that no measure adopted by that House could be passed if not apploved of and countersigned by the right houourable baronet the Member fur Tam. worth and the gentlemen who acted with him ? Was it not plain and ureic. niable, that the party opposite had the power of defeating any projects of Ref am which her Majesty's .Ministers might entertain and that party disapproval of? The result of the present system virtually was to give to the right hollow able harouet a veto upon any measure which her Majesty's Ministers might 1.roeose of a reforming character. This was a painful conclusion. (Lauyhter Members on Me Opposition benches.) The honourable gentlemen opp.eite might laugh; but this was_painful to him and all those who held his prineip! (A deep murmur of " Hear, hear I" from Me Liberals.) They could hut make a matter better by disguising the painful truth from themselves, her ought they to picture to themselves a majority which might fail when the ino- meut of trial came. Gentlemen opposite possessed a negative upon all sulisten- tial Reform. The Conservative principle was really predominant in Parliameat! and action he said Conservative, he meant the negation of all substantial reform. It was in that way that lie understood that the Conservative was tie predomi- nant principle in the present House of Parliament. If this result had arisen under uuy system of representation which would take the means of cuiketiug the fair consent of the People to it, then he should bow most submissively to it, however little he might coincide with it. But there was no pretence for ac,ert- ing any such thing. He could not consent to take the votes of tenauts and tradesmen dictated to by landlords and overawed by customets, as the free opi- nions of willing citizens. He could not consent that any such proceeding she:di be passed upon him as the expression of the People of England. The puhlie of England were at least a reforming public ; and if their sentiments haul bees fairly collected, the result would have been such as those opponents would have little reason to rejoice in.

It would be unjust to charge Ministers with the defects of the Re- form Bill— He, at least, did not intend to be guilty of such injustice; but this he did say, that when they had the experience of the last few years before their eyes, if they still adopted it as a final, complete, and uuimproveable measure,

then he must say that they consented to the present dietribution of ;Aided power ; and they acquiesced in that representative system which deprived them of the power of executing their reforming intentions, unless such intentien

met with the upprobation of the right honourable Member for Taniworth. That was their position at present ; and it was impossible to escape noel the

conclusion that they must understand the exact situation in which the voters were placed ; and it was for them to determine whether they would sanction a system by which the aristocracy usurped the electoral power of the kingilem.

Though he was far from reproaching them for the defects of the Reform Bill, yet, when they were now acquainted with them, if they resisted improvement in the bill, no other conclusion could he conic to but that they approved of the relative power which was now established between the Tories and the Liberals."

Mr. LIDDELL spoke with exultation of the success of the Conserva- tives at the last election ; and called upon Ministers to declare their intentions with respect to the Irish Church, Colonel PERCEVAL protested against the assumption that Ireland was in a tranquil state. In Sligo, sanguinary tragedies were of utmost daily occurrence. Contenting himself for the present with this pro- test, he should vote fur the Address.

Lord Join RUSSELL then rose. He was most ready to admit the reproach, if it were a reproach, that the Speech had been framed with

a view to prevent adverse discussion. It was, be thought, most dc.

sinffile that the Queen should receive an unanimous Address from her first Parliament. Had Ministers introduced into the Speech all the

topics which Mr. Wakley wished to have found there, they would Lave been justly charged with inconsiderate rashness. In 1835, he had thought it right to demand that the measures Lord Melbourne's Government of the previous year had prepared should be stated in the Address, for Lord Melbourne bad been suddenly dismissed from office without the opportunity of laying them before Parliament. And of those measures, could it be denied that several of the most impor. tant had since been carried ? In reply to Mr. Hume, he would state that it was the intention of Government again to introduce their Pluralities Bill, and to move for the reappointment of the Committee on Church-rates. He had been asked by Mr. Wakley, whether he would support certain other questions- " Hellas mentioned the question of the Ballot ; he has mentioned the clues. ion of the Extension of the Suffrage, and the question of Triennial Parlia- ments. These lie has be:tight forward in three separate amendments, all form-

jog pets of the same measure. He has put his powders into three separate papers, as portions of m hat he considers the same medicine. (A laugh.) I

am not going now to enter into the reasons and arguments with which each of these measures may be supported or opposed ; I will not enter into the alien- situ of the question generally ; but I am bound to give some explanation of my view's with regard to the position of the Reform Act and my present position. I cannot conceal the disadvantages and the injuries to which the Reform Act is subject. I admit that, at the late elections, corruption and intimidation pre- veiled to a very lamentable extent. I admit that, with respect to some parts of the Reform Act, they are the means of making it a source of great vexation

toilet real and bona fide voter. 1 admit that, with revere to the registra:ion

of voters in particular, great amendments limy be made. But these are clues. tions upon which I consider Parliement should always feel bound to be alive and attentive,. to see that the Act suffers no essential injury, and that any errors in the details which might be made in the commencement, might be after- wards remedied. But these are questions which are totally different from those now brought forward, such as the question of the Ballot, the Extension

of the Suffrage, and Triennial Parliaments, which are, and I can consider them as nothing else, but a repeal of the Reform Act, and placing the represen- tation on a totally different footing. Am 1 then prepared to do this? hsay, certainly not." With respect to registration, the Attorney-General would be pre- pared to bring forward his bill of last session in an emended form ; and be would himself reintroduce his measure respecting the payment of rates— "But I do say, that having now only five years ago reformed the representa- tion, having placed it on a new basis, tt would be a most unwise and unsound exptaimeut now to begin the process again, to form a new suffrage. a change in the manner of voting, and to look for other and nex securities for the repre- sentation of the people. I say, at least for myself, that I ran take no share in such an experiment, though I may be, and indeed must be, liable to the somewhat harsh term of the honourable Member for Kilkenny. I must ex- plain, however, in what sense I consider myself bound with regard to that measure. When I brought forward that measure, it will be recolketAl that the ery was that it was too large—that it was too extensive: and those who were it adical Refortnere were upon the whole much better pleesed with it than them who were ninderete Reformers. But it was the opinion of Earl Grey-- an opinion stated in the Ii use of Lords, and an (pinion sbited repeatedly by Load Althorp in dot ilotim of Commons—that it was safer to make a large anti eveneive measure of rebwm, that it seas preferable to a smaller mete ure of retorts, for this reason, the• in bringing forward the extensive measure they might have the reliance that they were bringing forward one which might have a pm eveet of being ti measure. Do I then say Flea the People of England are deprived of the right of reconsidering the previsisms of that act ? I say no such thing. I ineietain that the people of England are fully entitled to di; so, Vie the eeople of Englend it shall so Worn lit. BO I rim not myself going to do so. I think that the entering into this question of the construction of the representation so soon again, would destroy the stabiiity of our institutions. It is quite impossible for me, havine" been one who brought forward the measure of Reform, who felt bound by the declarations then m ale, to take any part in these large measures of reconstruction, or to consent to the repeal of the Reform Act, without being guilty of what I ;hid: would be a breach of faith towards those with whom I was then acting. If the People of England are not of that mind they may reject me. They can prevent me from taIong part either in the Legislature or in the Councils of the Sovereign ; they can place others there who way have wider and more extended, enlarged, and enlightened views; but they must not expect me to entertain these views. They may place others in sly situation; but they must not call upon me to do that which I not only con- sider unwise, but which I should not feel myself justified without a breach of faith and honour in proposing."

He bad been asked if there was to be a coalition ? For himself, he could say that he knew nothing of a coalition being intended. With re- spect to the revenues of the Dutchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, he thou:tilt the Speech was sufficiently explicit. It was Lot intended to surrender them; accounts of the revenues, properly audited, would be periodically aid before Parliament. It was intended that the whole question of the Civil List should be laid before a Select Committee. He declined entering on the subject of Canada et that time.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, be adhered to the opinion he had formerly given, that it was most convenient not to introduce debateable points into the Address ; and therefore he approved of the course taken by Ministers,—at the same time that he expressly reserved his opinion as to every subject to which allusion was inacle in the Address. Hew- ever, he might say, that he rejoiced at the determination of Ministers not to cut off the revenues of the Dutehies of Cornwall and Laneester from the Crown. There was a material difference between the two. Over the Dutchy of Lancaster the Crown had a direct and immediate control, but held the Dutchy of Cornwall only in trust. As to the amendment, it was no doubt framed to extort from the noble lord who represseted the " ague& z tide " materials of which the Ministry was said to he composed, incite declaration favourable to the trews of Mr. Wakley ; but he rejoiced that Mr. Wakley's expectations had been defeated, and that the Ministry proved not to be quite so squeezable as he had ateiciputed. The noble lord objected to take one of the pow- ders. Nevertheless, Mr. Wakley must persevere. In consistency he must divide the House, that the People may be aware of the opinions of their Representatives. Sir Robert went on to contend, that a real change in the opinions of the People, and not intimidation and corrup. tion, had caused the Liberal majority to dwindle down from 150 to

30. The People were averse to a succession of constitutional changes, and drew a sensible and manly distinction between projects that would undermine the institutions of the country, and the sober re- medy of proved abuses- " I feel confident, that we may trust to-the sound, deliberate judgment of the

People of England, to assist this mot powerful minority which !nee sirs ranged on the benches behind me, in resisting tie further progress of Democratic change—not the progress of rational, well-cousidered improvement, but the progress of Democratic change, which is avowed as having for its object the altering the ratio of political power, and enabling one class of political opinions to acquire an overwhelming predominance. Was there ever such a reason given fur change? We find,' says the honourable Member for Finsbury, that we have failed ; the constituent body has deserted us; we fear that another election or two will render that desertion complete ; and therefore we call upon you, in order to recover and maintain our predominance, to cut and carve the con- etituent hotly to answer our purposes.' I, for one, after the changes which were effected in the principle of representation in 11832, will not give my consent to any further change of the kind ; but if I were to give the honourable mover a carte blanche to cut and carve the coustituency as lie pleased, my coutitlence iu the good scow of the People of England is such, that with whatever con- stituency lie may form, lie would still be in a niiuority. They may widen the constituency or shorten it—they may increase it as they please ; but they will never be able to modify it so as to render it more in unison with their opiuiouse This is my opinion. I may be right or I may be wrong ; hut, be that as it may, I am not prepared again to incur all those evils which must inevitably arise from the constant agitation of constitutional principles. I shall therefore feel it to be absolutely necessary to oppose the proposition of the hninnti able gentleman ; and whenever any particular measure may be brought female!, whether of Ballot or for the Extension of the Suffrage, I shall be prepared to discuss it in detail, and assign my reasons for not acquiescing in it. I entertain it perfect confidence, a confidence increased by the declatatien of the noble lord, that reason will prevail, and particularly with the experience of the last election in my recollection—that the .estitutions of the country are psrfeetly safe in the bands of the intelligent and enlightened People of this couutry, in whose hearts they ate rooted, not more on account of their venerable antiquity, thou their intrinsic merit." ( °Epos. 'au cheers.) Mr. WARD had intended to vote against Mr. Wakley's motion;

but, after the speech of Sir Robert Peel, and he gi ieved to say, espe- cially after that of Lord John Russell, he should, if it were pressed to a division, vote in favour of the Amendment. Lord John Russell had disappointed the hopes of his best friends, w hen he said that the Ballot would be a repeal of the Reform Act. By that deelarittioia

he had signed his deatl-warraut and chalked out his politicul grave. A division then took place—

For Mr. Waidey's Amendment Agee et it 509 Majority The numbers having been declared, Air. Weeery sued, he would not trouble the House to divide on the other two amendments. lie was persuaded the course he had taken

had not been unproductive of benefit. Notwithstanding the refusal of Lost) John Russell to take his powders, one of them seemed to have operated very well : the dose wars a bitter one, but lie had swallowed it like a maim. The speeches of Sir Ruben Peel and Lord Juliet Russell had proved Gott thsre was at any rete a et...lit:on of principles between the leaders of the two aristocratic Dailies in the House. The people were 'Stilly warned of what they had to expect fio:n the Hewett; end

he advised them to lay their petitions net before the Ilotise, but

before tl:e Queen. Ile was quite steislied toldi Laving made it mani- fest that Lord John Russell and Sir Robert Peel were in the same boat, end must slid: or se lin ((Tether.

The two following areentituetes, moved by Mr. Wekley, were then put and etTetived without a division:--.

• ''It at this ese resercifully acqo tints i.ee y, llmt it will. ;'11 the preqmi Sion af P.adiaaient. I Ow into eamdteraii,JI, the 1,f juot, et tit 11;0 reolae iu the free e \ere:se of Irdruell be a law to establsit a system of see:et voting. ti iveale, of Ballot. " That the Hoe, 70-0 Likes ilie I oppolt mot y r:.•:mect folly to assure her Maje•ty, that it will, ia the present session of l'ar:1t111.,st, :31“, into con4deration the pru,tiety of repealing Septennial !Let."

The question having been again put on the Address, Air. Heuvev sael, that as a Hosed Speech afforded a tempting opportunity to speak on every cenceivaide subject, he might puehlps, had lie gained the Speaker's attention at an earlier hour, hive been tempted tb iiddress the House at greater length than the amendment he had now to propose warranted : as it was, he should not detain the House long, especially as Lord John Russell had already spoken on the subject of the latter part of his amendment, when replying to some iliquiries from Mr. Hume. Ile felt that the House was already exhausted by a debate which had given little satisfaction, and a division which had given none at all. His amendment was as follows-

'"fhat whilst this !louse is deinuas ur ina!iing the most liheral provision for the support of the becoming splendour amid ju.t dignity of the Crown. they feel that the same ought to be &vitt al from ob.:kr:is a ad direct sources; and that to such end every branch of the hereditary revenues of the Crown might to he placed, without re- serve and without exception, under the cue col of Parliament, as the surest weans of protecting the Crown against exaggeratsd impressions tit' their amould, and as security against their misapplication. " That in the aria mamma of the Chil List, we cotilideutly rely upon the ready co■;wration Of your Majesty, iu promoting all needful inquiry into the claims of per. sons to be continued as i■vivieliti of state pre» vi..ion. beiug deeply impressed with time obligation of apply inn; to then a test similar to tied alikh has been emeriti), Sate., (bleed, and is now in force, amongst a less loatatate purtiun of your Majesty's subjects."

Now the first part of the amendment merely went to carry into effect a measure which the present Ministers when in Opposition declared that they only wanted the power to carry. They were vow about to legislate for a Sovereign, the reconstruction of whose revemies nobody ',result would probably live to see. It was thelefore important th A there should be no misunderstanding-

" If lie undsrstuad rightly the noble lerd's explanation, it was to this eltet that it was the intention of the G oval nnsent to hi ing the tevcones of Dutchies of Colowall and Lineaster under the eogniza:nee of that !louse, and to he uceasionally submitted to its in-pection and et titled. If this were the care, it met, to a great exteat, the prelitnibary pert of his amendment. At the sane time, it was important that the actual amount awl native of this property shooed lie fully understood, before they entered on the dimus-;011 of the Geri List, because, whatever was the amount of it, it was to be brought in aid and diminution of the grant to the Crown. It should, thete:.ore, he clearly and fully understood. Perhaps there was no species of impiety of which the Crown was in the receipt respecting the value of which the public was cu completely tu the dark. It had been represented at various times iu various ways, but be had never heard the settled revenues arising from these Dutchies of Coruwall and Lancaster estieutted at less than 40,000/., while the Decisional and frequent fines arising from the renewal of leases 1 rought up the gross receipt to an enor- mous amount. Ile knew of a case, within, the last three years, in which, fur


venewiog a single life in the leases of a Small property in the Dutchy of Corn- wall, the Crown demanded and received the eilortiloue sum of 70,0001. ; and the persons who v duet! the property gave it as their opinion, that if the other two lives had been allowed to drop off, the Crown might have easily procured for it a sum of 140,000/. Now, it was obvious that if this property was with any thing like effect to be brought before Parliament in aid of the Civil List, Par. 'lament was bound, and had a right to know its exact value: and he therefore railed upon the noble lord, to state precisely what were the intentions of the Government upon this poiut.

The second part of his amendment related to the Pension List ; for the revision of which a strong feeling existed in the public mind— He ventured to assert, and he appealed for his „justification to all those Mem- bers present who hal faced popular hustings during the late election, that there was no subject respecting which the public mind displayed so strong and de- cided a feeling as the necessity of a speedy revision of the Pension.list. And it should be observed, that the late alteration in the Poor-law system had nut tended to diminish this feeling. On the coutrary, it had given it more strength and consistence. Itlany of those he addressed were Guerdians under the Poor- kw Act; and they kuew, that in numerous instances persons advanced in years, who for a long period had been in receipt of small sums of money in the nature of palish aid, bad had those pittances either entirely withdrawn from them or considerably 'educed, unless they yielded to the ungracious necessity of taking up their abode in a district workhouse. Now the people pondered much on this; and it was but too well known that comparisons between the lot of these persons and the rich pensioners of the Civil-list were daily and hourly made. To be sure, who would not be shocked at the idea of comparing an aged miserable pauper, without connexions or friends, and scarcely known beyond the bounds of the humble parish in which he was born, with those high and mighty personages who, with all the bloc inry of rank and high station, cut eu conspicuous a figure on the Pension-list ? But he feared the great mass of the people thought differently, and were far more shucked to see the pensions of the latter retained, while the wretched pittance of the former was either contracted or cut oft He then asked the House to step forward, sad, by supporting his Amendment, force her Majesty's loiters to submit the pension-list to some such revision as that to which all the payments wider the old Poor-law were Subjected by the last Act. lie might perhaps he told that the present was nut the most appropriate moment to meet the question, and that many gentlemeu who were inclined to vote for the revision he called for would not support his amendment from a disinclination to Biro any thing but onauimit • at the consineuctinent of her Majesty's reign. If he were to be convinced of this, much as he differed bona them iu opinion, he was prepared not to persist in calling fur a division.

He could assure Ministers, that they had now no popularity to throw sway— The untoward declaration that night made by Lord John Russell—manly and honourable though the confession was—would, lie predicted, oleo ate as fatally to his Govertinieut, awl that it, a short period, as did the memorable declaration of the Duke of ‘Velllugton in another place, when he Said that he saw no neces- aity for any alteration in the state of the representation. Where, he asked, was She difference better en th it declaration of the noble duke's and the noble lord's, aa)ing as he had done tint night, with all the es Muncie of corrupt:U[1 and Ind- xriidatios. alisieg from the elections just concluded, that he was not prepared to sanction any ellattge in tie Reform either as regarded ar. eve:Is:on of the suffrage, the voting by ballot, or the duration of l'ariiattieuts ? Ile asserted them %V.1,1 no distinction to he made between the two eases ; and it the noble lord owl Ids colleagoes were not prepared tit tafeit the little poled it ity wit ch DOW relliaibell to them, they would give their support to his proposition.

Lord JWIN Ilt.551.1.1, that then merits would be produce i before the COMOlittee, showing the actual nod avermao receipt front the flutelike of Cornwall mei Loneastee. Wit!, respect to the Pension- list, the pit:admit of lead would ha stiectly followed. lie and his colleague, agreed with Mr. Perak„ that it was fir raiser r i lay down prospective provision aigainet the repetition of abuses, thee, to take away pensions already gi mated— Ile stated this distirictiy, in miler that it might not be supposed that if lie or any of his colicaguts 1/1:4.41:1111 1:it:1111.10 75 of the Committee about being In:wed for, any proposition embracing a departure front this course tray likely to originate from theme. lfut though this was his general view On the subject, he thougl.t it was perfectly the ri!.;ut of l'arii.:;:odit to :clop; a differ eat course ; and if it so deem tit to enter fudy and complerely into the revision fur which the honourable Alember was so anxious ; the 6111211111101t wool t nut originate such a revision; but if it should proposed, they would claim the light of further considering it before they decided wl.ether or not they should sup.. port UT Dppose Mr. flatters( would not divide the Himee, though he regretted the answer given by Lord John Russell. W hen the Civil List Committee was moved fur, he would move that it be a special inetruction to the Committee to inquire seriatim into each and every case in the Pension- list, with a view to its individual and general revision ; and he would divide the House upon this motion.

The amendments were put and negatived; and the House adjourned at a quarter to eleven.

The report on the Address was brought up on Tuesday, by Lord LtvESON ; and on the motion that it be agreed to, a discussion of some length ensued.

Mr. Laaneat wished to make a few observations on one part of the Address, which he had abstained from introducing OD the previous might from a desire not to interfere with the tenour of the debate- " But the very debate of last night has rendered same locution of the subject more necessary than befae. After the declaration hostile to further reform in the representative system made last night by tl.e noble lord the Member for Stroud, the last hope of obtaining really popular measures from the present Go-

vernment lore been taken from us. After that il-tinted, and to the present Government fatal, declaration against the only measures which can give to the people their just and proper control over the representation of the colintry, the noble lord must not be surprised if he finds that lie has lost the support of the People, on which alone his Administration rested, and that he no longer pos- sesses the confidence of the Representatives of the Popular party in this House. With eager joy the party nppesite received his declaration, and applauded and supported his anti-popular determination. With delight he was hailed as a partisan by those who consider the Reform Act as a solemn compact to he for

ever held as binding. That compact may, indeed, be binding on the members of the two aristocratic factions who ratified it ; but it is not binding on the Peo-

ple, or on the People's Reprewritatives whir never sanctioned it—who had, in- deed, no share in it When allusions ale sneeringly made to the restless desire of change, and the idea of reforming the Reform Act is treated with ridicule, I

answer that the People never desire change for the mere sake of change, but be- cause they find their position uneasy ; and indeed people lately call tut a change of system till they Mel their actual state alumni intolerable. And as to not re- fer:ming the Reform Act, I say that the People are as determined to have a re- form of th it measure as they were to have the Reform Bill itself. They sue. ceeded the.; ; why should they fail now ? When appeals are made to the array of the wea'th and intelligence of the upper classes against us, I fearlessly appeal from them to the overwhelming numbers, to the largely-developed andanrdappirdoli increasing Intelligence, to the steady and improving motality, and to the sound common sense of the commercial, industrious, and working classes of this coup. try. It wild be seen whether they will much longer submit to be mere tools and puppets of the Aristocracy, or whether they will assert their rights, to the aristocratic factions that there is a power above them—the power of the great majority of the people. The line will soon be drawn between the Arista cratic and the Popular parties—between those who wish to keep what is called the representation as it now is, and those who wish to see the People, or even the nominal electors, really represented is this House—between those who are determined to stand mill and those who are resolved to advance in the path of Reform. The noble lord, with sorrow and deep regret I say it, has made com. mon cause with the opponents of Reform : be may now obtain support from them—he rem expect no confidence front the Popular party. He is no longer the Popular Illinister nor the representative of Popular opinions: be and hie colleagues now hold office for the purposes and at the will of the Tories; and they will hold it only until the Tories think proper, on a fit and convenient op. portunity, to dismiss them and to take their places for themselves. Such being the case, any declaration of the present Government must be received by the Representatives of the Popular party with increased jealousy and distrust. Partly for this reason, and partly because I think that theme should be no delay in laying the subject before the public, I think it my imperative duty to advert briefly to that pint of the Address to which I shall now call the attention of the House."

He proceeded to describe the state to which Canada had been brought by misgovernment; expressing his regret that the cause bad been for a time deprived of the unrivalled energy and eloquence of Mr. Roebuck-

" The state of Canada is, indeed, mentioned in the Speech; and the noble lord who moved the Address held out some hope of conciliatory measures: bat what sort of conciliatory- measures can be reasonably expected by the Popular party anywhere, from a Government of which the leader has declared positively against the vet y measures most anxiously expected and most earnestly demanded by the People of England ? if the noble lord treats with cold indifference the almost unanimous prayer for protection of the constituencies of Great Britain, what chance of a more favourable or less chilling reception, what hope of justice or protection, have the people of a distant colony ? Besides, the resole. thins were called conciliatory ; perhaps by the conciliatory measures now pro. mised the noble loid means merely the enforcement of the resolutions, or some equally satisfactory enactment. But even if the Government be sincere in their promise of conciliatory measures, it is, I fear, too late to talk now of con. ciliation, except it be most full and ample, such as the withdrawal of the rem. lutione, and a prompt acquiescence in the just demands of the Canadians. If the noble lord who introduced the Canada resolutions in the last Parliament ever fiir a moment fondly imagined that they would pacify Canada, or produce any thing but indignation and a more determined and open opposition, he must now be fully satisthil that he was grievously mistaken in his expectations, sod that his estimate of Canadian endurance was sadly erroneous. The resolutions were received in Canada as they deserved to be received, with indignation and bitter animosity : the Assembly, in an address which does them honour, have reasserted their rights and their just demands, and have denounced the resole. thine as unconstitutional and tyrannical. The last hope of juetice nom England has been dashed from the Canadians; and they now ill unequivocal terms de- nounce as foreiguers and enemies the :11inisters who proposed and the Parlia- ment which passed the Canada Coercion Bill."

When the resolutions became known in Canada, public meetings were held jn various places-

" In these meetings they were strongly denounced. Amongst other persons, many t dicers and illagistrates attended ; on this account they were depraved of their conimieeions. A royal proelarnation was tint down by a Canadian in the moment of excitement: fur this he was indicted before the Greed Jury ; the bill against him was ignored by the Gland Jury, and the inn was vim tonal} acquitted. In defiance of this decision, the Canadian Attorney- Geuetal issued ex :Viejo informations and proceeded against him. The two great objects of governnaeut should be to protect the persons and the properties Ut the governed. In the eyes of the Canadians, you attacked their propel ty by your resolutions; and now you attack their persons by the must tyrannical and vexatious I in.. proceedings. The consequence is, that your government is at an cud is Canada for all the purposes fur which a government should exist. The people have, in tact, set up a provisional government of their own. The Militia office's and Alagistrates, dismissed by your government, have been reelected by the people; your courts of law are deserted, and the people resort to local provisional courts; and instead of going before your Judges, they take their differences to be decided by pacificators ur judges of their own selection. Your very commerce is denounced—non-intercourse is the watchword of the Cana- dians—they' have bound themselves by solemn obligations to use no article of British prolitee. Should a collision take place, can you depend upon your troops there? Are they not deserting in great numbers ; preferring indepen- dence in America to the aristocratic system and the corporal punishment of the English service? Arc you prepared fur an armed collision with the Canadians; and do you think that the other North American colonies would assist you, or that the people of this country would pay additional taxes to enable you to keep up a sufficient force to coerce the Canadiane ?"

To show that he had not exaggerated the anger and hostility of the Canadians, Mr. Leader read passages from several Canadian news- papers in confirmation of his statement. One of them was from the Montreal Vindicator of the 6th of October.

" The 8131 Regiment, it is reported, is to be stationed at Three Rivers, and along the Rachelleu river, through the winter. Where will they he in the spring ?" 'this warning is repeated on several other occasions. In speaking of a purchase of horses for the Artillery, the sentence is finished in the same wends, " Where will they he in the spring These words seen, ominous of the fate of the oppc:ssors of Canada : thay may be most aptly applied, I grieve to say it, to the preseat Government bent—if they pursue their present course, where will they be in the spring Mr. CliADLED BULLER said, that as a sincere friend to the present Government, he must express his sorrow at the declaration of Lord John Russell with respect to the representation- " I differ from many of the opinions which the noble lord expressed last night ; but much more do 1 deprecate the tone and temper in which he was pleased to avail hies If of the motion of the honourable AIember for Finsbury, to declare his unalterah'e determination not to reform the Reform Bill; and I can only say, that th. tone and temper of the noble lord convinced me that he is only wanting an opportunity of quarrelling with a great portion of those by wl:om he has hitherto been supported. I am sorry to be obliged to say this; and I hope that the nob e lord will give us reason to Hind' differently of him. But if the noble lord is determined to take that course, he is perfectly right in avowing it candidly. If he is tired of the support of a great portion of those by whom he and his colleagues were borne into office, he is right in caulially stating and openly avowing his intention. I only hope that be is well on with his new love on the other side of the House, before he is off with his old one on this side. But if he prefer the tenure of office by sufferance from the other side of the House, instead of support from ours, he is at liberty to do so: only let the pub- lic judge between W. The Reformers of England will feel deep indignation against those who may break up the present Reforming Ministry, who may bring the enemies of the People on the other side of the House into power. But let the People know that it is not our fault, but that of the noble lord, that Ire seeks to quarrel with us. ("Hear, hear I") I must say, that the language of the noble lord on the questions which ht denounced, surprises me, because I cannot reconcile it with good faith on his part. When he wanted the aid of the supporters p of the Ballot and of Triennial Parliaments in carrying the Reform Bill, he held very different language. His language then was, that these matters

were not interfered with by the Bill, and that it did not settle them, for that they were still open to debate. Why, does the noble lord think that if, in that nicely-balanced Parliament, the Radical Members had insisted upon the Ballot and had refused their support unless it was granted, he would have had the slightest chance of carrying that measure?"

The demands of the Radicals were called unreasonable : let them be proved so—.

" The sum of them is, that we require to have the Reform Bill carried out to its legitimate results; but we require to have it carried out in the spirit, and not merely according to the letter. Do you think it was Schedule A or B, or any such devices, that Reformers looked to in the Reform Bill? No; in sup- porting Lord Grey, the principle sought for was representation instead of nomination. We have not got it ; nomination now exists in a worse form than ever—worse, because it is not now in bands accustomed to its exercise, but in those which will exercise it to the injury of the people, and have not the re- sponsibility under which the former possessors of boroughs laboured. The working of the Reform Bill has been to take the nomination out of the hands which formerly held it, and to place it in the hands of a great number of people with less responsibility. The present system is not such a one as will allow the voice of the People to be heard. Bad and gross as the old system was, its corruption was modified in some degree by the force of public opinion over every proprietor of a rotten borough. I am quite willing to leave it to the country to judge whether the Reformers are what the honourable Baronet the Member for l'antworth would represent us. Indeed I have never placed any value on the opinion of the honourable baronet, because I have observed that never on any important occasion has he been able to judge rightly of public feeling. (" Hear, hear, hear !") And I know of no position he has ever taken up from which he has not been driven by the voice of the People. Least of all shall I be driven from seeking the "Reform of the Reform Bill, by the opinion of a man who once said that the Reform Bill itself was not the wish of the People."

Great would be the disappointment of the People at 'the conduct of Lord John Russell- " If the noble lord, using the advantages of office, commits a blunder such as was committed by the Duke of Wellington in 1830, by a course of opposition to the further reforms that were looked for, it would be in fact, on his part, telling the People of England that the franchises which were given to them were not to be enjoyed, and that their privileges were not to be fairly and independently exercised--in fact, that they were not to possess the advantages of representa- tive government."

Lord JOHN Russem. rose, and spoke to this effect-

" I think it necessary, after the observations which have just fallen from the honourable :Wernher for Liskeard, to answer those parts of the honourable Mem- ber's remarks which had reference to myself, as well as to the important subject which List night was brought under the consideration of the House. With respect to the part connected with myself, I very touch regret that the honour. able gentleman, who, in the latter part of his speech, made an admission that what I said must be taken with a qualification, should have been led to attribute to me, in the early part of his speech, an intention of seeking for a pretext thr quarrelling with my supporters, and was ready to throw away the orange which I haul sucked, and that lie hoped that I had found some ground fur placing my future reliance on the opposite party. I must say, that an imputa- tion more base and dishonourable, as it affects the motives and conduct of a public roan, could not he made; and, iu the face of the !louse and the country, I feel myself bound to declare those imputations to be utterly unfounded. (Cheer- ing.) When I epoke Let night, I did not speak altogether from the impulse of the DU/11141A. I had considered beforehand the cum se which I should take in the debate on the Address. I had determined that, if the debate should be con- fined to the topics contained in the Speech or the Address, I would not throw out any allusion to topics upon which there might exist any difference of opinion between her Majesty's Government and those who had accorded to the Govern- ment their most honourable and disinterested support during the time that we have bad the humour of holding the seals of office. But my determination also was, that if topics were introduced which I had every reason to suppose would be introduced, and with respect to which I could not fail to have a strong opi- nion—if topics were put forward which I utterly disapproved of—if, for instance, a topic was proposed to the House which I thought could not be favourably en- tertained without inflicting a deep injury on the public interests of the country, bolding the situation which I do, and being a leading party as I was to the Reform Bill, then it was my intention, as it was my duty, whatever obloquy or whatever imputations might be cast upon me by the honourable Member, or by other honourable gentlemen, not to withhold from the House the solemn and decided expression of my opinion. (Cheers.) I know not whether the House will agree with me, but certainly, as far as my impression went, I did think that the speeches of the honourable Member for Finsbury and the honour- able Member fur Kilkenny were as offensive and insulting to the Administration, to which they profess to wish well, as could well be made by any gentlemen under such circumstances and pretending to that character. I cannot say that I am satisfied with the tone which persons professing to be friendly to the Go- vernment frequently adopt, by saying that the course of policy which they re• commended would be unfavourable to the continuance of the Administration in office. I do not pretend to say that I am indiffereut to the continuance of the Government in office; I will not make any pretence of having a wish to resign office and retire into private life ; but I do hope, that if the question between may continuance in office, and my being forced and pressed into opinions which I do not avow, and supporting measures which I think would be injurious, if not destructive, to the country,—I hope I am at least removed from the impu- tation that I would make a dishonourable choice." (Loud cheering.)

He denied that any thing he had said was inconsistent with the opi- nions he had avowed when introducing the Reform Bill-

" I said at that time, that the questions of the Ballot and of the Septennial Act were not treated of in the bill which I proposed for the reform of the re- presentative system, but that they would be always open for either the Govern- ment or any Member of this House to bring forward as they might think fit. I said also. that I hoped the House would pause before it gave its sanction to a system which would give the irresponsible power to the electors; and that, if it should ever Atones) the duration of Parliaments, it would take care not to render them so very tidied as to produce inconvenience iu the despatch of public business. The effect of what I a aid WAS tether diseautaa:en than otlanwhe to those questions. I am now ready to say what my opinion upon them was at

that time. I thought that it might hereafter appear that those principles might be safely introduced ; and 1 resolved to lateen my mind ready to watch the progress and course of events. I tun now ready to express my opinion with respect to the duration of Parliament. The thee always named by those who advocate short Parliaments is three years I always thought that period too short, and I also think that seven years wee be inconveniently long. But the question really is between seven years and five. As to the question of taking votes by Ballot, I do not attach so much importance to it as others seem to do. I admit, however, that it is a question of importance; but I think that OD! of the chief objections to it is, that it would peeve perfectly inefficacious as a

system of secret voting; and therefore it cannot afford that species of security sought for by the advocates of the Ballet. I snake these observations, not with the intention of entering fully into the subject, but merely that my opinions might be understood. Almost all the advocates of vote by Ballot say at the same time that the suffrage should be extended—they say that it should

be extended at least so as to have household suffrage; but if it were extended so far, many persons agree that it would lead to the most extensive br ibery and corruption in the smaller boroughs which now exist. (hie gentleman of 'great experience on subjects of this kind, who was examined before the Intimidation Committee, and who is a person of the greatest sagacity and intelligence—I mean Mr. Parkes—said, that in the smaller boroughs, with the Ballot bribery would exist in a greater extent than at present. The honourable Member foe

Kilkenny is also the advocate for extending the suffrage to householders as a step to universal suffrage. The late humourable Member for Liverpool, Mr. Ewalt, in a pamphlet which Inc has addressed to the country on the subject of the Reform Bill, also recommends a great extension of the suffrage. The honourable Member for Westminster is also an advocate for a great addition to thefranchise ; and in the changes which he recommends the Ballot only forms a part. It appears to me, taking all the eilcurnstanees together, that even if I were disposed to think that the opinion in favour of the Bailot was a right opi; nion, I am obliged to stop and consider, supposing Parlianierat were to enact the Ballot, whether the Ballot would of itself form the end of those discussion with respect to the Parliamentary constitution of the country. The honourable Member for Liskeard says it is desirable, when we settle questions of this kind, that there should not be a perpetual recto renee to them. This is the doctrine of common sense; and if the time of Parliament is occupied in continual con. stitutional changes, a great portion must he lost uhicis might be better employed in useful, effectual, and practical reform. Then, agreeing with the honourable gentleman that cinch a course is nut desirable, I come to the conclusion, that if the Ballot were adopted alone, or that if the shortening of the duration of Par- liament were adopted alone, at the present time, they would not so far either satisfy them with regard to the Reno m Bill, or make it appear to them a com- plete art, as that we should not be immediately required to grant further champs. With respect to the question of the Ballo: itself, I very much apprehend that if the voting were secret it would be said you are right iu establishing secret suffrage, but the franchise ought to be far more extended. I must say that is a rational observations. Then I can hardly be prepared to enter upon one course without being prepared to pursue it. I recollect lately read- ing an account in a newspaper of the proceeding.; as a meeting which was convened in favour of the Ballot, %Conch ended hv atiellier taking the chair, and the passing of a general resoltini.m that the Ballot would be ueelees unless there be a further extension of the In order to adept these measures, we nand emit ely reconstruct the Ref,: in Act ; we inee: ex•end the suffrage; we collet abulish, according to seilie eeatlemen, many of the smaller boroughs; and we must disturb what at the time we deliherately ceueidered a fair balance between the agricultural, the matnifeeturing, aed the other interests of the country. It ie therefore my opinion, fir, that gre-at ae the VA it of much of the present system undoubtedly is,—thougli I hardly dirk cv nr this deserves the epithet bestowed upon it by the Lemon-able Men,luee; it is no opinion that it will be far better for ter to ende ivourn, iii.ruse the s, stein in its .Serails, and carry on the lei-ine,s of the counny under tLe ileferin Act, than attempt aay new plan of stdrage."

Ile had been reminded that tile Ministerial majority was small, and that it was necessary that souse tinirg should he dune to awaken public enthusiasm in their favour : but, tiwu h nr)t blind to the nature of his situation in tine Ilutn,e, be held (oat ha was bound nut to forget the situations of the country—

"Sir, at the time the Reform Lill passed, I stated my belief that it must necessarily give a prepouderance teu :he lieuled interest; and, although it may be deemed that such preponderance Lea been eoine what unduly given, I still think that a preponderance in Leone of that interest tends to the stability of

the general institutions of the eauentry. ( espreeitiee doe us. It is my opinion, that to frame a plan of le nalin m1 kit should give weight only to the large towus, to the exclusion of the _rest Feely of the boded interest,—meaning by the term not merely the Loathe ds, but the firmer, and tenants of the country,—would be to inn wince the elements of general disorder; and I can- not suppose but that thuae who wild be thus cu nst.v deprived of their fran. chise would never rest quiet under oat plan of governitien:, until they had by every means endeavoured to reinstate themselves in their due positiun in the country. With respect to a large portion of the interest to which I am allud- ing, I am well aware that the opinions both of the honourable Member for Kilkenny and my own are unpopular wit): thent ; and therefore, when I look at the great strength arrayed on the other bide of the House, althutigh 1 fully be. lieve that many unfair means have in a number of cases been resorted to in the recent elections, I can account for nitwit of the focus opposed to us in the pre- valence, particularly in many of the counties of England, of opinions—consci- entious opinions—hostile to the meaeures. which we have brought forward. ( Opposition cheers.) Such being the sum of any opinions, and looking to this side of the )louse, the present and future interests of the country, I must say that I for one air assuredly not prepared to go into thew general questions, which I consider would render an entitely new Reform Bill necessary. Honour- able gentlemen, however, are unataken in repreactiting me as determined to make no alteration in the Reform Act. I never described that act as 'one entire and perfect chrysolite,' without a al iw or an impurity. On the contrary, I have repeatedly expressed my cunt ict ion, that in matly parts. particularly with reference to registration, it ru.taired conaiderabie anienilmeut. The alteration made two years ago, which empowered an increase in the number of polling-places—an important alteration iu its regulation—rendered it obvious that no determination had been come to which prevented amendments in the provisions of the act. Sir, I might go further into this and other matters; but my intention in rising was nietelj to state to the Hurler the reasons which in- duced me to speak last night, to explain the grounds of niv conduct. Sir, I am seeking no coalition with any opposite party ; but I du tech, that in the situa- tion which I hold, and in the present state of the cottony, if I had entirely withheld those opinions last :tight, I should nut have been acting as became that situation, and that I might frilly have been reproached with a culpable evasion of a difficult question. k,Cineers.1 And, Sir, be we or be we not Ministers of this tummy, I trust that, havmg proposed not a few great mea- sures, and having carried many of them, the country will du us the justice to believe, that on no occasion aliall we behave so unjustly, so treacherously, so basely towards the People who have hitherto supported us, as to refuse to theta a tair sitatement of 4.o. opinions, or a fair vote un any of the great interests of the countiy, whenever t,.ev may be placed in ivy 41 ify by of au kind what...weer." (.1/..(4 cheering, especially from the •Oipoiition.) Mr. GROTE Wil!Hlgly nave Lord John Russell credit for the manly avowal of the course he hall resolved to adoto ; but he complained that Lord John had treated the question of the Ballot unfairly— What be complained of was, that the noble lord had treated that question as though it were inseparable from the others which had been brought fotward. Last night the noble lord had complained that the questions had been spread over three motions: now the noble lord Lad thrown the three into one. No person, he felt sure, who supported the Ballot denied the necessity of other reforms; but he had to cemplain that honourable gentlemen adduced arguments against the Ballot which were irrelevant to the subject. He had given notice for a future day of a motion on the subject of the Ballot ; and he would then intro- duce it, as he always had time, on its own merits and without connexion with extension of the suffrage or any other matter. At the same time, he would give to all these questions his cordial support. He hoped that when the noble lord opposed his motion, he would be prepared with arguments against the mea- sure itself, and not seek to derive an unfair advantage by draggirig in any other proposition. If such arguments as were now used by the bible lord told been allowed to prevail en a former creasion, the Reform Bill wcialil never have passed. He felt deeply sorry for the declarations the noble lord had made on that and the preceding night—they would diffuse sadness through the bosoms of Reformers. The hopes offish they entertained of Iris lordship's Government would be de,troyed by that declaration. They all remembered the celebrated declaration of the Duke of Wellington against the Reform Bill ; but he believed that the declaration of the noble lord would produce as great a sensation.

Mr. BULLER explained, that he ought not to have used the expres- sion that Lord John Russell sought a pretext to quarrel with the Re. formers and to coalesce with the Tories: that was language he ought not to have employed.

Besides these speeches, there was a long harangue from Mr. PeTra Boaenwlex, to which nobody seemed to listen. We understood that his text was the war in Spain : and Colonel Evaxs expressed an anxiety for an early opportunity of disburdening himself on that subject.

The report was then agreed to, and the Address ordered to be pre- sented in due form.

On Wednesday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL informed the House, (which met at twelve o'clock,) that her Majesty would receive the Address at half.past one that day. Soon afterwards, the Speaker, with many '_Members, went to Buckingham Palace to present it.


On Thursday, Mr. SPRING Bien moved that the passage in the Queen's Speech relative to the Civil List should be read by the Clerk ; which having been done, Ire proceeded to address the House. lie commenced by observing,, that he relied on the support of men of all parties in the course he ititended to why. with a view to secure an adequate provision for the honour and dieeity of tha ('rown. lu con- formity with the course he rind his friends had taken wle ti in Oppo- sition, he should move that tire sul.ject e,f tbe Civ:! :.ist Lc refened to a Select Committee. Ile nerd trot go at ::try leneth into the history of the various iirridigements of the Civil List. It was not till fur It ign of George the Third that :toy thing nproeching to a Sidi.lactory arrangeinClit errs r11:1(11.. George tl.e Third relinquished the whsle of his ordinary 10.Feditlry reve1DICC., and reeeived in return a settled Civil List. This arrangement was substantially in force till the ac- cession of William the Fourth, who, in addition to the reveldics surrendered by his predecessors, gave up curtain casual revenues, surf, RS the Molts of the Crown 11101 the Gibraltar revenue. The sums thus relinquished amounted, during the reign of the late King, to 70,0110/. But a more salutary mid irnportnnt alteration was made by the separation of the charges properly !rforming to the itelividual ex. penditure of the Sovereign from those respired by the public service. It could not be denied that the subject of the Civil List NV:IS ap- proached more conveniently in consequence of that alteration. '1 he result, moreover, had been a saving in the reign of William the Fourth, as compared with that of George the Fourth, of about 100,000/. per annum on the entire charge of the Civil List and it was to be re- membered that the late King was never obliged to apply to Parliament for the means of paying off any debt on the Civil List, although he practised the most unbounded hospitality and the most eclurged atal generous charity. In the reign of George the Third, the Droits at the disposal of the Crown yielded the enormous soul of 1.2,705,461/. ; out of which, 2,6000)0/. had been contributed by the Sovereign to vards the ordinary expenditure of the country; while the expenses of captors and payments to those concerned in taking prizes amounted to 5,372,834/ : but, deducting these two sums, in large amount of casual revenue still remained to the Crown. In addition to these receipts, Parliament voted no less than 3,398,000/. between the years 1769 and 1816, to discharge the debts of the Civil List ; and during the same reign, 413,000/. was derived from the fees on suppressed offices. These facts should be borne in mind when settling the Cis il List for the present reign ; and it should also be remembered, that whereas former Sovereigns had inherited considerable personal property from their predecessors, Queen Victoria had derived nothing from tout source, or from the revenues of Hanover, now separated from the Crown of England. The establishment of her Majesty must be different from that of a King or a Queen-consort : it must be an establishment of ladies as well as gentlemen. Keeping these eircurnstatmes in view, he would proceed to explain to the House the arrangement he intended to submit to the Committee. Mr. Rice then went into a comparative statement of the charges of the establishment of the late King and those he submitted as proper for Queen Victoria. The whole will be found in the following papers, which, along with others, Mr. Rice referred to.


Willi.,,, IV. Her Melville. 1st Class—Privy Purse £110041) .4:1;0.1tun

2,1 Class—Salaries 1:ilt.040 130.0110

3d ChM—Hills 171:0) 172.5110

4th Class—sreci41 Service, Royal Bounty g:tgon 23.200 5th Class --Pensions sewer 73.000

1:nalipropriated Money 9,000

Total £510,000 £470,000


EstsbliIhrnent of her Majegy. Lord c hataberlaiu. Vice.Chamberlai rt. Eight lands in Waiting. Eight brooms in Waiting. Muster of the horse. Chief Equerry.

Four Equerries. Four Pages of Honour. Mistress of the Robes.

Eight Ladies of Bedchamber.

Eight Maids of Ihnnatr. Eight, 1\ 'omen of Bedchamber.



1820, £203,058; 1830, £180,914; 1837,1Xt49,802.

Mr. Rice drew attention to the decrease in the amount of the Pen. sion-list ; and with reference to the pensions granted by Earl Grey and Lord Melbourne, he should be prepared to show the Cernmittee, that they had been awarded in strict conformity with it resolution of the House passed on the 18th of February 1834—to the effect that the responsible advisers of the Crown should only recommend his .Majesty to grant pensions to persons who had just claims on the Royal benevo- lence, either by personal services to the Crown, or by services to the public, or who by useful discoveries in science or art merit the con. sideration of the sovereign and the patronage of the nation. The greatest efforts had been made to bring the whole subject of pensions into disrepute. Charges previously refuted have been reproduced, if riot for the purpose, with the effect of deluding the public mind. The subject had not been fairly treated. It was very easy to object to names ; it was very easy to say things true at one time and apply them to circumstances which did not exist at needier. He had seen names most unjustly pointed out and made matter of reproach to the Pen. sien.list. For instance, Lord l'areborough bad not been in receipt of his pension fur miry years past ; and yet it was now asked, what he had done to n:erit his pension? A question put to Bey ['mother of the Ministry wurild have elicited the flet—'bat Lord Farnborough had given op he: pension 011 succeeding to conisidereble property. So also with regard to 1.0rd Sidinouth : he II;Di given up his ;pension upon ac- quiring l roperty which had devolved to him. With a week it bird bete a-krl, why Lord Auckland and Lord Elphinstobe con- tinued to reecive their pensions, when in point of fact both these noble ]oldshad elven up their pensions en lade; appointed to the offices in India they now lull. lie bud Imani questions put with respect to females—Ire had been asked Mist 'Miss Charlotte Stewart had done to deserve a pension ? Miss Stewart was the daughter of the lute Colo- nel Stewart, Assistant-Secretary to the Treasury,—a man of indefati- gable industry and spotless integrity, a Ito, though in ill health, refused 11 superannuation allowance, and died in the public service. That was his daughter's claim to her pension. Mr. Morton had been long em- ployed in the investigation of a most important question—that of the terminable annuities, and succeeded in supplying itiformation by which n loss of 170,000/. was prevented ; and surely ire deserved the pension of e50/. a year, which stood against his name. The names of Airey, Faraday, und Somerville, were an humour to all parties. It was in- seeded that the resolution of 1834 should be introduced into the act for settling the Civil List, and thus have the force of law. It was also proposed that the pensions granted Should be laid annually before the House of Commons. Then came the motion of Mr. Harvey; who put the question as Mr. Rice believed it had never been put before. (Mr. "harry handed Bin. Rice a cnpy of his resolution.] He had come down to the House prepared to discuss the motion as it appeared on the Vote-paper, and now he found that Mr. Harvey had substituted a different motion. This course was not very fair. The motion on the

paper was for a return of all pensions and sinecures, and for a Commit- tee to inquire how far it was right to continue them; but the motion

as handed to him by Mr. Harvey was, " that the Committee do cause

full examination to be made into the circumstances under which each existing pension was granted, and whether the continuance of the same be justified by any public service or special cireumstances." The effect of this motion, if carried, would be to throw a new duty on the Civil List Committee. What was intended ? Did Mr. Ilarvey wish the Com- mittee to go into the question of pensions, sinecures, superannuation, and retired allowances ? Why, you might us well refer the Consolidated Fund to tire same Committee. Now he would say what he was wil- ling to accede to. Saving the just rights of the parties, he was ready to go into an inquiry whether the pensions were or were not properly given. Goversineet was willing to undertake the responsibility of moving for a T;ommittee to investigute the whole subject; and he pledged himself that the inquiry should be conducted in the spirit of' Mr. Harvey's motion, and that the public should have the full benefit of it. But he could not undertake the conduct of the two Commit-

tees at the same time; though as soon as 11114 Civil List Committee had

concluded its labours, he would be ready to oedemata the other. With respect to the four-and-a-half per cent. duties, it was intended to repeal them entirely; and to bring the affairs of the Dutchies of Co all and Lancaster by an annual report before Parliament. Mr. Rice concluded by moving, that certain papers on the table relative to the Civil List be referred to a Select Committee.

A Member, with a strong Irish accent, asked whether Mr. Thomas

EsTAbLIsilmENTS OF WILLIAM E,D,bli.hment of William IV. Lord Clia11114n Wu.

Vice.Chatriberlain, I:room of the Stole.

Taelte Lords in waiting. Thirteen Grooms in Waiting.

Master of the Robes.

Master of the Horse.

Chief Equerry.

Four Equerries.

Four Pages of honour.


First Lady of the Bedchamber a::40(.0 Ladies of the Itedelianther 1,1100 Maid of I tumour 300 Aud a coutiiiiit gilt of 3,000 Total of Quccu .1one 14,,00


Lord Chamberlain .£1,0a5

Lord Stexrud..

Master of Horse

Groom of Stole (tbolighed) Four Lords in M ailing (.- Five Grooms

51u,ter Mille Robes



51,0 1;100 t,„tittl

Moore's pension was granted for making ballads for love-sick maidens, er for slandering George the Fourth ?

Mr. RICE really thought that the honourable Member might also have asked whether it was not given as a reward for distinguished talent. He had hoped that no Irishman, of whatever politics, would have objected to see the name of Thomas Moore on the Pension-list. Perhaps the honourable Member would ask whether it was for writing his early works, of a very democratic character, that Robert Southey was pensioned? For his part, he rejoiced heartily at the rewards which both these gentlemen had received in return for their contributions to the literary pleasure of the country.

Mr. HARVEY said, he was in a situation of considerable difficulty. He feared that, in the excessive baste of Ministers to secure the Civil List for their young mistress, the object he aimed at would elude his grasp. He recollected that difficulties accumulated from the commence- ment of the last reign. At first there was no indisposition to grant inquiry into the Pension-list ; but afterwards, circumstances unhappily interrupted those good intentions, and when Members urged inquiry into it they were charged with breach of faith. He was not certain that he clearly understood Mr. Rice's proposition. The arguments of that gentleman, however, were all in favour of his own motion. Mr. Rice had made admissions respecting the receipts of the Crown, whirb, had they been assertions of some fretful demagogue at a public meeting, would have been denounced as a gross untruth. Yet they were to have a balance-sheet from Sir Robert Inglis to prove that the Crown, not the country, had lost by the Civil List arrangements with George the Third. Really that document would be a curiosity. Why, till lately there bad been a loss to the country on the Woods and Forests ; but, thanks to the vigilance of Parliament, about 40,0001.

or 50,0001. per annum was now brought to account ; and that was the boasted benefit the nation received in return for the Civil List. As for the Admiralty limits, for years past they had amounted to 1,2IF1. With regard to the Four-and-a-half per Cents., the 158 new Members fright perhaps suppose that they referred to the Four- and-a-half per Cents. in Threadneedle Street ; and that indeed would be something to talk about; but in fact, the Four-and-a-ball per Cents. were sugar-duties paid in kind by the Colonies: for every bemired hogsheads of sugar or puncheons of rum exported, the Govern- ment took four and a half hogsheads or puncheons ; and upon the funds derived from this source, pensions to the superfluous portion of

the aristocracy %vete charged, till the charges exceeded the income. These Four-and-a-half per Cent. Duties bad yielded 5,0001. a year— never more, generally be believed, about 2,0001. a year.

It was then tlesir.ble fat that House, and, still more, it was desirable to the people—the people who cheered her Majesty, and her Majesty's Ministers (Lontgittr)—it was of tie utmost impertanee that none of their virtues, that none of their n:erits should be lost to those Ministers; that. whenever they went tenth with her Majesty into the streets and upon the Iighways, the pct. ple should take off their bats, and cheer fur those very Alinisteis who had obtained fur them such ia,meise concessions from the Clown at the beginning of the new teign—(Lawybeer)—that, too, the People might say of them, "Those are the :Ministers who, although they have given a Civil List amount- ing to 510,000/., yet have, by their judicious system of economy, contrived to balance the account by various concessions Crum the Crown."

Mr. Harvey said, that the real value of the Dutchica of Cornwall and Lanca‘ter was much larger than was generally supposed ; anti he mcutiorcd some facts in confirmation of this statement. Ile then ap- plied himself to the Pension-list ; declaring that he knew nothing of lir. Aires, or Mrs. Somerville, or Mr. Moore—all on the Pension- list might be as goo I as they for any thing he knew ; but lie wished to aicertuin if it were so. He wanted to have a rigid rule of examina- tion applied to Miss Charlotte Stewart and Lord Farnborough. It would be seen that his amendment had been cautiously worded. Plr. Harvey ushed fur ti.e Amendment he had handed to Mr. Spring Rice, but itcuuld 1101 be iinthd.1 Ile hoped it was taut lost, as it was the first document he bad committed to the care of a Cabinet Minister. But to the Pensiumlist- lle thought that all upon the Pension-list were just as good as Miss Stewart and Mrs. samerville; 12t; t did the world so think? An ungenerens, a censo- rious, a seandablocing world was under the impression that upon the Pension- list there was many a hoary sinner—(Lonoltter and cheers)—that there were stili there those whose pretensions were to be boind in the secrets of the cabinet or of the couch. Many individuals thought this., but he did nut think so. (Loup/tier.) There were certainly individuals who thought that many had found LL, it way there whose pensions were the price of their political apostacy or the iesignation of their virtue. Many, he was sure, were entitled to be on that list lot their meritorious services; and such persons it was the duty of that }louse to save from unjust imputations. After what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had throwil out with respect to tine Pension-list, it became them— it became those young own—it became those I:pi young men to step forward and throw the broad shield of their gallantiy neer those individuals who were wade the stiliject if unjust imputations. (.1-qughter.) It they had any young blood stirring, in their veins, they must have the gallantry to come for- ward and aid the ladies that were thus slandered. Why, he asked, were Mrs. Somerville and Miss Stewart made the express I -1,j;:ets of approbation and ap- plause?—why, for the mere purpose of showing up the Arabellas, and the ether fine ladies who ought nut to have pensions. (Lanyhter.)

It was on this question that the Duke of Wellington's Government

had been overthrown. ("No, no!") It was convenient to say no, but for what he said there was sufficient evidence. He recollected that Sir Henry Parnell had in the most pointed manner declared that the Pension-list required investigation. There was a Committee on the Civil List ; and the result was, an addition of some 10,000/. or 1.2,000/., but not a shilling was saved. There came a film over political eyes;

and it was whispered that in return for a most weighty obligation,

there should be an abandonment of the attempt to revise the Pension- list. The Monarch, whom the Secretary of State had since his death

described as the most pliant and ductile of men, vine: it doeged resolution not to pass the Reform Bill if his Pension-list were touched. That time hied now gone by; and Mr. Harvey trusted that nut enlarg, spirit of generosity and a sincere love of justice would triumph ever every minor consideration. Mr. Harvey contrasted the treatment (-I

the poor, under the new law, with that which the aristocratic. paupers experienced ; and concluded by an appeal to the formidable phalanx of Tories to throw off the shackles of party, and tell the tutor of the land that in the proud Conservatives of England they had generous friends. He then moved his amendment : he bad not the words, but they were in safe custody.

The SPEAKER asked who seconded the amendment?

Colonel SIBTHORP" I do." (Much laughter.) Mr. HOME thought that Mr. Harvey must have misunderstood Mr. Spring Rice; otherwise he would have withdrawn his amendment.

Mr. SPRING R:CE banded Mr. Harvey his amendment ; which that gentleman read ; and then Mr. RICE, after apologizing for the incon- venience occasioned by the loss of the paper, said that he believed, with one exception, his proposition agreed with Mr. Harvey's. Dlr. Harvey wished to include sinecures in the inquiry. (Mr. Harvey—" I do not.") He was glad of it, and would again read his notice of motion : it was " for a Select Committee to inquire into each pension, and whether it ought to be continued, having due regard to the claims of the parties, and to economy in the public expenditure."

Mr. HARVEY wished to understand distinctly whether or not there was to be any money voted in reference to pensions until the inquiry had been completed?

Mr. SPRING Rice said, that the money for the pensions would not be appropriated pending the inquiry.

Mr. HARVEY said, that whilst he had no desire to be understood as placing an overweening confidence in the Government, still be bad confidence in the purity of Mr. Rice's present intentions; and, under these circumstances, would withdraw his amendment.

A Member asked, whether the inquiry would extend to the Royal Household?

31r. RICE would not consent to an inquiry into the wages of the menial servants of the Royal Household.

Sir lloactiT INGLis said, there was an important otnission in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he had not stated the value of time property given up by the Crown in return for the Civil List. It would appear from papers be bad moved for, that the country had profited to the extent of tweitty-trine millions by the bargain. Mr. RICE said, be did not believe one word of it. Sir Robert Inglis was peculiar in his opinions on that point.

Mr. GOULECRN spoke in defence of the financial arrangements in George the Third's reign ; and observed, that after all, that Alonarch only got 100,0001. a year on the overage from casual revenues. It should ulso be remembered that George the Fourth had never applied for payment of debts on the Civil List.

The papers were then referred to a Select Committee, consisting of the following Members—Mr. Spring Rice, Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Hume, Lord John Russell, Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Strutt, Mr. F. T. Baring, Sir Thomas Acland, Mr. Hawes, Lord Ebriugton, Mr. George Evans, Mr. William Miles, Mr. Grote, Sir Thomas Fremantle, Mr. Bannerman, Mr. Robert Palmer, Mr. Villiers Stuart, Mr. William Evatv, Mr. Lucas, Mr. Sanford, Mr. Macleod ; live to be a quorum.


Oa Tuesday, Mr. CHARLES BULLER moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend ti:a. law relating to controverted elections. Mr. Buller did nor enter into the details of his measure, but said it was substan- tially the same as the bill be introduced lust session. Mr. O'CONNELL, took tl:e opportemity of stating the leading pro- visions of a measure which he intended to bring forward fur time same purpose. Ile proposed that the Speaker should name five Members as a Committee to manage the trial of an Election Committee; that the Committee should receive the statements of both parties; and then draw up an abstract of the point in controversy ; furnishing copies to the agents fur the petitioners and the sitting Member s, and calling upon them to mention objections to the abstract, if they had any; that, if required, counsel should be heard as to the questions to be tried, and alter hearing the arguments on both sides, the Committee should decide what the questions to be tried were that the Committee should report thereon to the House ; and the 6peaker should forthwith issue his warrant to the Court of Queen's Bench directing it to decide those questions, as the Lurd Chancellor now does the feigned issues out of his court. A Special Jury should be impanneled to try the case ; and the Committee of five Members should report the proceedings to the )louse. The verdict of the Jury would be decisive ; die House having an ()ppm unlit). of hearing the law of the Judge, and the facts, before affirming the decision. Patties presenting frivolous petitions to

be mulcted with costs. This was the best plan be could suggest; though be knew it was liable to objections. lie now mily asked fur leave to place his bill on the table slung with Mr. Buller's.

Mr. Wyxa; objected to any alteration whatever in the present system; but would nut oppose the intro:he:don of the bills.

Leave was then given to Mr. Buller and Mr. O'Connell to bring in their bills.

On Thurol,y, Lord STANLEY asked Lord John Russell, whether it was his intention to apply the provisions of any bill not yet passed to the petitions arising out of the late elections ; and whether it was his intention to proceed in the regular course with the petitions after the Christmas bolydays?

Lord Joins RUSSELL replied, that it was a convenient arrangement for the House to postpone the consideration of the election petitions till after Christmas; and be should make a motion to that effect ; Lut ha was at loss how to answer the other question—

"l am perfectly aware of the law, and what might be done before the ex- istence of a new law ; )et it is impossible for me to say that before the expira- tion of fuortreu days there may nut appear to be au evident intention to take advama,,,• of that law to set aside, uut airy false returns. not any returns made by er.:t.s. but to set asi:le a great number of elections that have been maMfe••■■ am; obviously fair and Now, 1 do not say that that will be the im; 1 tau ,e. that there were indications in the month of August I ast —;mt ...alive than tbat—which induced me to think that that may probably 14' the t..„-e. Theiefore, with respect to the question the noble hod asks me s until the foul tern days have elapsed I cannot make any answer to it. Buz if it ,lies appear that there is an num:tie:1 to take advantage of the law for the peeversion ;poi abuse of that law, I cannot conceive, if that ease is clearly

! and plainly made out. that this lionae will not at least think it a matter of grave deliberation. Whether in such a rase Government would propose any uwasure—whether any individual Member would propose a measure, or whether the Haase would agree to any measure—I cannot at present answer ; but I say there are such indications which convince me that I should not be quite safe in presuming that these intentions are perfectly fair; therefore I cannot say that it is intended by those parties to abide by the fair interpretation of this law, an I n ,t pervert it to patty and improper purposes."

The returns against which petitions have already been presented, are those' for London (against all the four Members), Neweastle-under- Lyi is Durham, Huntingdonshire, Ipswich, Salford, Canterbury, Pe. ter.ti ld, Bridgnorth, Bristol, Honiton, Marylebone,Tynemouth, Taun. ton, Roxburghshire, Lanarkshire, Longford County, Belfast, Sligo Borough, Queen's County, Tralee, and Youghall.

• This rigmarole is copied verbatim from the Morning Chronicle. MISCELLANEOUS.

LATE. SITTINGS OF THE COMMONS. Mr. BROTHERTON moved a resolution that the debate on any question shall be stopped by the Speaker after twelve o'clock ; upon a requisition to that effect being made bya Member, supported by four other Members. Mr. HINDI.EY and Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN supported the motion. Mr. GoULBURN, Mr. WARBURTON, Mr. SHAW, and Mr. T. BARING opposed it. Mr. Waxsee said that the hour of adjournment should be seven, not twelve. On a division, the motion was rejected, by 76 to 26.

A SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRIVATE BILLS was appointed, on the motion of Mr. SHAW LF.FEVRE.

POST.OFTICE IMPROVEMENTS. On Tuesday, Sir ANDREW LEITH HAY presented petitions from Elgin, Banff, and Dingwall, in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan of Post-office Reform.

COLONIAL SLAVERY. In the House of Lords, on Thursday, Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Southampton, praying for the immediate abolition of the Apprenticeship system. He referred to the prosperity of Antigua, the Legislature of which colony had abolished slavery at once in 1835, as proof that the experiment of entire emanci. pation might be safely and advantageously tried. Yesterday, Lord BROUGHAM moved for some papers connected with this subject. He regretted the absence of Lord Glenelg ; which was occasioned, no doubt, by fatigue arising from close attendance in the House for the last four months.

NOTICES or 111artoNs. The following are the principal notices of motion given since the commencement of the session— Select Committee on the Poor Law, to be movod for by Lord Jots RUSSELL, on the

27th November. Bill to Helical the Pnor4aw, by Mr. Jostle Patrice, 20th February IfOS.

On the Morel and Physical Condition of the Poor in denselypeopled towns, by Mr.

BLANEY, 30th November.

Ou the formation of Public Walks in the vicinity of huge towns, by Mr. SLANE'S, after Christmas.

Poor•Laws for Ireland, by L'ird Jotter RI,SSELL, 1st December.

Bill fur the better and more couvenient Employment of the Poor in Ireland, by Mr.

LYNCH, 7th December. Municipal Corporations for Ireland, by Lord JOHN RUSSELL, 5th December. Bill to amend an Act passed in the second year of the reign of his late Majesty, in- tituled " An Act to amend the Representation of the People of England and Wales," by Mr. Mattel', 9th February. Bill for taking Votes of Parliamentary Electors by way of Ballot, by Mr. Game, 25th February. Bill to repeal the Stamp duty on the admission of Fteemeu, by Mr. WILLIAMS, 14th


Bill to Itepeal the Corn.laws, by Mr. VILLIERS, 1st March.

Bill to Amend the Law of Patents, by Mr. MACKINNON.

Bill to Amend the Law of Copyright, by Mr. Sergeant Tar.votran, 14th December.

Law of Libel, by Mr. O'Costww., 14th December. 'Unitary Punishments, by Captain BOLDER°, on the introduction of the Mutiny Bill, Bill to establish Parochial Schools in the Highlands of Scotland, by Mr. SERINO Rice, 19th December.