Debates anb Vroteebinas trt Warlfament.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

In a conversation with Sir ROBERT PEEL and Mr. GOULBURN, in the House of Commons, on Monday, Lord Jolts; RUSSELL stated that the Poor-law Bill would be proceeded with in Committee that night ; that it would be resumed on Friday ; and that from Friday it would be gone on with from day to day. He intended to supersede notices of motion next week : there were no very important notices ; one for a Committee on Newfoundland, it was not his intention to oppose. Mr. Labouchere's resolutions on Colonial produce, which stood for Friday, would be postponed till Monday week.

POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

On the order of the day being read, on Monday, for going into Com- mittee on the Poor-law Amendment Bill, Mr. HoncsoN II1NDE rose to move an instruction to the Committee, restricting arid defining the powers of the Poor-law Commissioners ; but at the suggestion of Lord JoHm RUSSELL, he reserved it for an amendment to he moved in the Committee. A very desultory conversation then ensued. Mr. W. Dm:eosins urged Lord John not to hurry the measure forward. Lord FRANCIS EGERTON alluded to petitions from Manchester and Salford, not only against the Poor-law Amendment Bill, but also against the permanent reenactment of a Poor-law ; though Lord Francis himself did not concur in the views of the petitioners. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that delaying the discussion from week to week prevented the House from paying that attention to the subject which its importance detnanded. He doubied the extent of the excitement on the subject -which was said to prevail in Manchester: at a public meeting called to oillitisb the Poor-law, only three thousand persons assembled, and they were of no note. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN entreated Lord John to recon- sider that portion of the bill which separated man and wife. Upon which Colonel Wools said, that in his Union they did not separate man and wife. Mr. LEADER said, that if the people did not send in more petitions against the law, it was because they were convinced that their petitions would not be attended to.

Mr. WAKLEY protested against the grasping powers of the Com- missioners ; and was anxious to bring before the House a case of great atrocity which had occurred at Nottingham— It appeared that a pauper of the name of Parks had died of exhaustion ; and a complaint was made that the poor man had not received proper attention— that his case had been most grossly neglected. When the matter came before the Magistrates, the Mayor was examined with regard to the case; and he stated that he bad endeavoured to obtain some relaxation of the rule which- had reference to the administration of nourishment in cases of exhaustion.

The rule was, that when the surgeon ordered any article of food not in the diet-table, it was not to be exhibited until the subject had been brought under the consideration of the Board of Guardians, and had received their sanction.

So that, in point of fact, if the surgeon were called in to a case, and he found the person dying of starvation, either caused by disease or want of proper nourishment, he had not the power to order a glass of wine, or any additional food, until his prescription went officially before the Guardians and received their approbation.

Was the law for the benefit of the poor, or of the rich P Were they prepared to maintain the inflexible operation of a law the effect of which must be to consign the poor to utter destitution— The medical officer of a Union might order for a patient Epsom salts, he might order Nap, he might order rhubarb, or any other drug ; he might pre- scribe medicines to any extent: but, as the House well knew, those drugs would not sustain human life. Still the Guardians put no restraint upon the administration of drugs; but the medical officer must beware how he recom- mended any thing more nutritive. There must be no stimulant ; no reniedy of that descliption could at any time or under any pretext whatever be adminis- tered without the consent of the Guardians previously obtained. Now he put it to the just feelings of Members, to say if any thing could be more hor- rible than this? Could there be any thing more deserving than this was of beiug called direct, cold-blooded, heartless cruelty ? A difference on this subject had occurred betweeh Mr. William Rayner, the medical officer of the Uxbridge Union, and the Poor-law Commissioners. The Board of Guardians had objected to orders given by Mr. Rayner, in several eases, for solid food and stimulants for his patients : in one week he had ordered such diet for fourteen out of nine- teen patients, and the Board required an explanation on the subject. Mr. Rayner insisted upon his right to use his own discretion, and he appealed to the Poor-law Commissioners. To his first letter, dated 4th, 'February last, no answer was returned. A second, dated 26th February, elicited a reply on the 4th of this month, in which he is told that the- medical officer of a Union is not empowered by the orders of the Com- missioners, or by his contract with the Union, to order articles of diet for pauper patients : such a power, observe the Commissioners, would be equivalent to the power of giving relief: a medical officer can only "advise or recommend a certain diet, to be given by the Guardians or, relieving-officer, who act on their own responsibility.' The Guardians,. said Mr. Waklev, were thus empowered to interfere between the- medical man and hispatients- The doctor was called in: he found the patient with a sinking pulse; he found that nutriment, and not medicine, was the chief thing required: he found that beef and mutton, that jellies and soups and wines, were the remedies- which alone could restore time patient to a state of health. The necessity for this might arise on the night of a Tuesday ; the Guardians might not meet until the following Tuesday ; and what in the mean time was to become of the unfortunate pauper patient ? Time Poor-law Commissioners took little pains to provide for his sustenance in such an event. In what light, he would ask, was it probable that the public would view a transaction of this nature?' Would they not view it with horror and disgust ? It was horrible and dis- gusting, and nothing else; it gave the Guardians the power of sentencing the- paupers to death.

What a contrast with the treatment of criminals in prison ! there there was no restraint as to the diet or medicaments which a medical officer might order.

Mr. DARBY said, that the remedy for the evil of which Mr. Wakley complained existed in an application to a Magistrate ; who could order instant relief in cases of emergency. Sir HARRY VERNEY was quite sure, that were an alteration of diet necessary, means existed for enforcing it.

Lord HOWICK could not remember an instance where a Board of Guardians had refused to allow nutritive diet, when required by the medical officer ; and there might be good reasons for their retaining the discretion in their own hands— It did not by any means follow, that because a medical man had received legal authority to practise, he was therefore free from the wish to excite dis- satisfaction throughout the country. Although a member of the College of Surgeons, he might be anxious to acquire a low and despicable popularity; he might wish to flatter the worst passions and prejudices of the multitude ; be might abuse the trust reposed in him ; he might avail himself of the power which he possessed and convert it to urposes of mischief. It did not follow from what the /louse heard that evening, that something of that sort might not be the case ; and if a Board of Guardians suspected that any thing of the kind were practised under time plea of duty, they were bound not to allow the medical officer to take out of their hands the power of giving or withholding relief. It was the habit of Mr. Wakley to give too ready a credence to every story to the disadvantage of the Poor-law Commissioners— Be did not accuse Mr. Wakley of wilful misrepresentation—to do so would be uuparliamentary—(_4 laugh); but he was in the habit of loosely adopting statements with which he might be furnished on occasions of this kind. [Mr. WA FILET 01-served that none of his statements had been rebutted. But, added Lord HOWICK, they bad not been substantiated.] Colonel SIDTHORP said, that others as well 38 Union surgeons might he seeking low popularity : were there not noble lords who, when they were turned out of one place, were trying by all means in their power to get into another? (Laughter.) The Poor-law Commissioners had. allowed three weeks to elapse before they had answered Mr. Rayner's letter : if that Was the feeling that Lord Howick justified, he need not boast of it.

Sir A. DALRYMPLE mentioned a case of an opposite kind to the cases cited by Mr. Wakley, in a place not under the control of the Commis- sioners: there the medical officer of the parish was empowered to ad- minister any species of food or nourishment that he thought fit. Even if a surgeon did court popularity, still it was possible that patients who

came under his charge might really require generous treatment. Many of those gentlemen who acted as Assistant Poor-law Commissioners had theories of their own that Slid not answer when carried into prac- tice; and it was therefore highly necessary that their proceedings should he carefully watched.

Colonel ROLLESTON, an ex officio member of the Board of Guardians in Nottingham Union, had promoted an investigation into the case of Parks— The man was exceedingly ill': he had been removed to the Union Work- house, a distance of ten or eleven miles, in an open cart in most inclement weather, when the temperature was 10 or 15 degrees below the freezing-point: he was received into the Workhouse at about five o'clock in the evening, in a state of extreme debility, and was attended to ; but he never rallied ; and he died at eleven or twelve o'clock the following day. Every thing was done that could be done by the inferior servants; but Colonel Rolleston was surprised to find that the medical officer had ordered nothing hitt tea and water-gruel. The surgeon told him that he should have ordered warm wine, or something of that sort, but the orders of the Board prevented him.

The Commissioners, however, were clearly not to blame in this case ; for Colonel Rolleston believed that the order was quite in contradiction to the spirit of the act, and that it was founded on some gross miscon- ception of the Guardians. The case had been brought before a Magis- trate, and sent to a Jury, the Overseer and medical officer being in- dicted for a misdemeanour, for sending the man in an open cart ; but the Judge before whom it was brought said that the indictment, if preferred at all, should have been for manslaughter. The matter was still under investigation. Mr. CHARLES BULLER must say, that if a medical man ordered wine and extra sustenance for fourteen or nineteen paupers, he should feel bound to make inquiry. General Jornescne combated the principle laid down on former occa- sions by Lord John Russell, that relief to the pauper should be regu- lated by mere destitution, without distinction of merit. Mr. GROTE entirely concurred in Lord John Russell's speech of Fri- day last. If medical officers had unlimited power of ordering suste- nance, they would become the real administrators of the relief to the poor. Mr. EASTHOPE thought that medical officers ought to be allowed a proper discretion ; and if they executed their duty inefficiently, the Board of Guardians had it always in their power to dismiss them.

Mr. WOLVERLEY Arrwoon reproved the House for disregarding the claims of the poor : if it were the case of some one sinking from a cause that produced an excitement in the country, the treatment would be alluded to with the strongest reprobation. On a former night, Sir Robert Peel had shown how incautious were the terms of which the Commissioners made use ; and might uot similarly incautious phrases tend to mislead the Board of Guardians ? He saw no security for the pauper if the medical officer were taught to regard the Board of Guardians in the light of a consulting physician.

Mr. WARD observed, that the argument about the giving medicines in cases of emergency involved a misstatement which seemed almost wilful— -

In every part of the country, the medical officers were empowered to order discretionary relief for the whole week intervening between one sitting of the Guardians and the succeeding sitting. This was the case in Hertford, and the Union with which he was connected. He knew a medical gentleman who pre- scribed the use of wine, meat, and bread, to any extent he pleased, giving in his account to the Board of Guardians at the end of the week; and in no single instance had the exercise of this power ever been found fault with. In the part of the country with which he was acquainted, a low typhus fever pre- vailed in one district, and a number of poor persons were attacked by it : by order of the Board of Guardians, the medical officers attended on these poor people for six whole weeks ; and the charge for wine and other comforts and necessaries amounted to 31., 41., or 5/. for each family.

Mr. COURTENAY entertained respect for Ministers who had the courage to extirpate the cancer spreading on the vitals of the country, the old Poor-law. Still there were occurrences to which he could not shut his eyes— At the end of October 1836, the Workhouse at Bridgewater was crowded to excess: an epidemy of a grave character broke out ; dysentery prevailed, and a vast number of persons were ill : the medical officer represented to the Board of Guardians that the disease was of an infectious nature, and he recom- mended that some change should be made in the diet. The Mouse had heard of wine and meat and all kinds of comforts being prescribed; but in this case, all that the surgeon asked was, that the poor might be allowed to change their water-gruel, which, as honourable Members might be aware, had a tendency to aggravate certain disorders of the bowels, for rice-milk. The answer the surgeon received from the Board of Guardians was, that they could not in- terfere: the surgeon was given to understand that his duty was with the sick only. No redress was to be had. These statements could hardly be believed, unless they hail been proved on oath before the House of Lords. An appeal was made to the Commissioners ; but, from the end of October until the month o'f April following, no answer could be obtained; and no power was given to change the diet, though the people were dying; and in a small population not less than fifty deaths occurred.

After a few more words from Mr. Musuz, condemning the power and conduct of the Commissioners, the House went into Committee.

Mr. EASTHOPE then moved as an amendment on the first clause, that the duration of the Commission be limited to the year 1843, instead of 1846. This gave rise to another general discussion on the measure.

Mr. GROTE hoped Lord John Russell would not consent to a shorter term than five years. Fixing that term now, would not debar Par- liament from interfering before its expiration, if a necessity appeared; but it would not be well to create an impression that the Commission was discountenanced by Parliament. The power of the Commissioners had been described as arbitrary and unlimited : why, it was derived from that House ; their acts were subject to revision by the Court of Queen's Bench, by an easy process; • every order they issued was sub- ject to disallowance by the Queen in Council; besides being exposed in the openest manner possible to public criticism and the control of public opinion. If instances of arbitrary power were wanted, let them look to the Justices of the Peace.

Mr. Honostau HOME said, that the Commissioners bad found a way of setting aside the Queen and Council altogether: they had taken care that their rules should not come under the head of "general order," although they applied them to every Union. Many persons supported the present law, because they supposed that if it were thrown out there would be a return to the old law ; which was a perfect fallaoy.

Mr. WAKLEY had heard no reason for the continuance of the Com- mission for five years longer. The Commissioners had incorporated 13,000 parishes ; 700 remained unincorporated ; and by the rule of three, if 13,000 parishes could be incorporated in six years, it would not take five years to incorporate 700. Mr. Wakley replied to Lord Howick's personal allusion to himself ; regretting that Members un- connected with either of the two great parties could not locate them- selves upon some neutral ground apart from both— He had no desire to associate with noble lords ; and it appeared to him that noble lords had no great desire to associate with him. However much noble lords might doubt the truth of his statements—however much they might pre- sume to treat him with contempt—be could assure them, without ill-humour, that he could return them the compliment ; and if he wanted to establish a character with the people of England, he would nev. r apply to them to repre- sent his worthiness. He thought it unfair in noble lords to cast out insinua- tions against the veracity of gentlemen who, in point of family distinction, might be inferior to them, hut who were their equals with reference to a seat in that House, when the people chose to return them by their unbought, unso- licited, uncorrupted suffrage. It was not merely treating him with disrespect, hut it was treating those who sent him there with disrespect ; and it showed that those who dared to make these insinuations had yet to learn what trite liberty was, and what belonged to the representatives of the people. If his family had been as costly to the nation as the families of some noble lords—if he had weight in that House in consequence of the amount of public metal he had in his pockets—he would perhaps be treated with more respect.

Mr. Wak ley recurred to the subject of medical relief, which he pur- sued at some length. Mr. HAWES remarked, that those who objected to the measure had failed to suggest a substitute. He alluded to the evils of the old law, to which it was sought to return : even the workhouses under the old law, without classification or system—the vicious huddled together with the innocent—more resembled prisons than the vituperated new houses. He mentioned a case which came within his own knowledge, where an account passed at a Board of Guardians, at Richmond in Surrey, which comprised an item of "expenses attending the support of Ann Phipps: eight weeks extra diet at 4s., 1/. 12s., besides wine, brandy, arrowroot, sago, and isinglass." The present law made the first provision for placing the enormous Poor-law revenue of 5,000,000/. in the hands of responsible officers, instead of the fourteen or fifteen thousand inde- pendent and irresponsible bodies who formerly had the administration of the fund. In reply to Mr. Wak ley's remark that the people had not derived much benefit from the Poor-law, he said-

" Was there no evidence before them of any amendment in the condition of the pcople ? of increased attention to their educ. ition, to the state of their dwellings, and to those salutary questions which had been more or less brought before that House, and which had never been thought of until the care of the poor was intrusted to responsible persons ? He could produce fact after fact to show, that not only had the wages of the labourer increased, but greater atten- tion had been paid to the moral and physical condition of the poor than at any former period in the history of the country. Let gentlemen who declaimed so much against the present Poor law look to the working of the law in Scotland, where it was placed in private and irresponsible hands, lie had gone from house to house in the city of Edinburgh in company with a Scotch physician; and he never witnessed such misery in his life, relief being doled out to the poor of that capital at the rate of half-a-crown a month. Scotland was sinking un- der the neglected state of her poor, and there was consequently a growing de- mend in the country for a superintendence and control something similar to that of the Commissioners in England.

Magistrates could order immediate out-door relief in any emergency. In point of fact, the out-door relief amounted to four-fifths of all the re- lief actually granted; the number of out-door paupers being 818,623, while the in door paupers numbered only 126,519. Mr. DUNCOMBE opposed the bill. If it required three Commissioners to expou d this law, why not have Commissioners to expound any other law—three Mayors at Somerset House, for instance, to expound the Municipal law ? Mr. Duncombe dwelt upon the case of Sarah Price, who was ill-treated by the Master of Richmond Union Work- house, in Yorkshire.

Mr. DARBY, Mr. HAMILTON, and Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND said that they would vote for the shorter period. Mr. VILLIERS had listened, to let his vote be guided by the argu- ments; but every opponent of the law had attributed its evils to some different source—one to the law itself, another to the Commissioners, a third to the Board of Guardians, and a fourth to the interests of the rate-payers alone being consulted ; so that his mind was more confused than ever. He therefore turned for guidance to the reasons for esta- blishing the Commission : it was, because the parochial system, which left to every parish to deal with "its own poor," had failed ; and there was a general feeling that responsible and competent men should be appointed to administer relief for the poor on the part of the State— He could not, indeed, wonder that this feeling should have prevailed, when he beard of the cases that people in the country were familiar with. Why, what effect would the honourable Member of Fiusbury have been able to pro- duce, had he been able to say that he had seen fine able-bodied men standing in the square of a market-place, like cattle in a fold, and placed there to be hired like beasts, at 3d. and 4d. a day, whatever more was required to support life being given by the parish? What would he have said, had he lateljbseen paupers brought in after a Vestry dinner, at the expense of the parish, and put up to auction, for the Vestrymen to bid for while drinking at their table?— a case of which, he was informed, was of monthly occurrence in one parish, and of which they should never have heard but for the inquiry, and which never could recur on account of the Commission. Why, in the neighbouring district of the borough he sat for, he was told that the poor used to be farmed by a pauper ; and their horrible treatment was what might have been expected: and in the next district to that, the female paupers were found to have been all impregnated by the Master of the Workhouse, who used thus to conduct him- self without control. (" Hear, hear I " and a laugh.) And these, as every- body knew who had inquired into the matter, were no solitary cases, but only specimens of the vice, cruelty, and corruption which prevailed under the old system. Such were among the consequences of the want of some controlling central power.

After a little more debate, the House divided ; when the amendment was rejected, by 174 to 135.

Mr. Honosoe HINDE moved that the Commission should extend to the end of "the year 1846 and no longer " ; but he allowed the amend- ment to be negatived without a division. Mr. FIELDER moved the postponement of the first clause ; but his motion was negatived, by 163 to 49.

The Chairman then reported progress. On Wednesday, Lord Joust RUSSELL made a statement of his inten- tions as to certain clauses which he meant to introduce himself, and with respect to the amendments which had been proposed. He should assent to the clause proposed by Lord Granville Somerset, limiting the number of Assistant-Commissioners to twelve ; adding, however, one Commis- sioner, Dr. Kay ; who had been acting without being appointed to any regular district, and who would superintend the education of the people. The Commissioners had enabled him to propose a clause obviating the objection which had been taken to the size of the Unions, by appoint- ing local Committees in the different districts of each Union to admi- nister relief in more pressing cases, without requiring applicants to repair from a distance to the General Board. He should introduce a clause giving to the Guardians the power now possessed by the rate- payers with respect to the emigration-fund. He should assimilate the scale of voting more nearly to that under the Irish Poor-law Act ; and should continue the voting by proxy for two years longer. The division of parishes into wards would be applied to parishes containing 12,000 instead of 8,000 inhabitants ; and the e,xtent of the wards would be regulated by the number of houses in each, and not by the number of inhabitants. He should adopt Mr. Rice's amendment limiting the definition of general orders, as it was clearer and simpler than the definition in the bill. And if that definition were adopted, he should have no objection to Lord Gran- ville Somerset's amendment requiring the signature of two Com- missioners and the counter-signature of the Secretary of State. He had no objection to the principle of Mr. Langdale's clauses, enabling paupers to attend divine worship according to their own persuasion. Be would support Mr. Sanford's clauses for abolishing settlements under apprenticeships and suspended orders of removal; Mr. Miles's amendment for appointing an Assistant-Commissioner as a district auditor ; Mr. Miles's other amendment for legalizing relief to persons living in one parish but having their settlement in another parish of the same Union ; and Lord Granville Somerset's clauses for sending orphans and deserted children to district schools, and for providing immediate relief for pau- pers brought by constables or police to workhouses. He concurred in the general object of Mr. Easthope's clauses for giving out-door relief to aged and infirm paupers unable to work, and to widows with families ; though they would require attentive discussion. He would also support amendments recommended by Lord Eliot with respect to rating ; by Sir Edward Knatchbull, with respect to the sale of parish property for the payment of debts ; and by Sir Robert Peel, effecting verbal alterations as to the asking of alms.

In answer to Sir ROBERT PEEL, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the bill would not affect the existing local acts regulating the large Me- tropolitan parishes.

IRISH POOR-LAW ADMINISTRATION.

The inquiry into the irregularities in the proceedings of the Irish Poor-law Commissioners was continued, by the House of Lords, on Mon- day ; when Mr. Phelan was examined. His evidence did not add very much to the information already extracted. He stated that he did not know that Mr. Butler had been a bankrupt, although he had known him for twenty-seven years ; in fact, he had documents proving that he was not a bankrupt. He had heard that an action had been brought against Mr. Butler to recover some property which had been left him in trust for his brother-in-law, Mr. Francis Burke, and which he settled upon his own wife, and that Mr. Butler was obliged to pay 500L, the value of the property. Mr. Phelan ad- mitted that he had voted for Mr. Ball, at the election for Clonmel, and that he had attended meetings and dinners to secure the return of that gen- tleman. He had an impression that he owed his own appointment to Mr. Ball's recommendation. He did not know that Mr. Butler had acted as agent for Mr. Ronayne when he stood against Mr. Bagwell for Clonmell. Mr. Butler was not considered a warm political partisan ; in fact, the Reformers of Clonmel thought him lukewarm. He thought Mr. Fennell as much of a partisan as Mr. Butler ; though he had never known Mr. Fennell take part in political meetings, while Mr. Butler had done so frequently. Mr. Phelan considered his introduction of Mr. Butler to the Commissioners as a matter of course. He would as readily have given one to Mr. Fennell as to Mr. Butler. Mr. Phelan had some correspondence with the Mayor of Clonmel on the subject of Mr. Butler's misconduct as returning-officer, which he had not com- municated to the Commissioners. He considered it as private. Mr. Henry Pedder, one of the Guardians of Clonmel, was next examined. He averred that Mr. Butler's insolvency was notorious. The general impression was that it was caused by the trial he had had with his brother-in-law. He had heard of a riot in Clonmel, at which Mr. Butler interrupted the Police in the performance of their duty ; and he was said to have headed the mob. When Mr. Butler was appointed, all parties, Protestant and Catholic, disapproved of the selection. He was a decided partisan. At the close of Mr. Pedder's examination, it was arranged that Mr. Erie should attend on Friday.

• PROPERTY-TAX.

In the House of Commons on Tuesday, Mr. SCHOLEYIELD moved a resolution, "That the assessment of all property, real and personal, within the United Kingdom, would be a fit and proper substitute for such of the taxes of Excise and Customs as press most heavily on the middle and industrious classes ; and that such alteration in the mode of raising the public revenue would be calculated in a high degree to enhance the value of all property, particularly by leading to the fuller development of the copious sources of wealth in this kingdom and its vast dependencies." Under the present system, the revenue is raised principally, if not altogether, upon necessaries of life ; and thus the rich are favoured at the expense of the poor. In the manufacturing districts the indirect taxation is felt to press with extreme severity : it introduces a civil war betwixt debtor and creditor, and a strife of the worst description between employer and employed. Unequal taxation, he believed, was the cause of much of the immorality and crime which prevailed at present : the working. classes were disaffected because they met with no sympathy from that House.

Mr. Mem= seconded the resolution. He hoped that the House would take this opportunity to show to the people that they really felt for the condition to which bad government and unequal representation and taxation had reduced them. Property in this country was taxed lower than in any other country in the world, whilst labour was taxed higher. This was a state of things that could not safely be allowed to continue.

Mr. TURNER regretted the thin attendance of Members on so im- portant an occasion. Mr. WiLuent Wrtmems maintained the necessity of some change. Whenever a new tax was laid on, it was sure to be placed upon some article of consumption made use of by the lower classes ; so that at this moment, he believed they had to pay no less than "one-half their wages in the shape of taxes. While such a state of things as that was suffered to continue, it was hopeless to expect that this country could compete with its Continental neighbours or with the States of America, where taxation was so much lighter. He did not expect much from the House of Commons, but he did from the pressure which must shortly come from without. Had a job' been the thing in question, the attendance of Members would have been very different.

Mr. PIELDEN compared the attendance now with that on the previous night.: no contrast could show more clearly how the House was consti- tuted, and how the interests of the people were disregarded.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the inference drawn from the thin attendance was not fair : the resolution had no practical bearing—

He believed that Englishmen were of a peculiarly business-like 'character; and that whenever business was to be done, the Members of this House would assemble in large numbers to attend to it, but whenever it was generally supposed that a resolution was to be moved which could not with any practical use be put upon the journals of the House, they thought it no dereliction of their duty to stay away. He was obliged to Mr. Scholefield for his suggestion, and would take it into consideration, "with the various projects relating to finance which were continually being offered to him "; but he did not think that it would be judicious to press the resolution. It would throw the whole of the commercial interests of the country into commotion, until bills were brought in to regulate the trades affected by the taxes of customs and excise which it was proposed to repeal. Mr. Schole- field should have been prepared to state what were the taxes for which he would substitute his new tax. When such a tax as that suggested was in operation some years back, no language was considered too vio- lent in deprecation of it, especially by those engaged in commerce. Ten years ago, Lord Sydenham had brought forward a similar motion ; but then he specified the articles the taxes upon which he would repeal. Of the seventeen articles thus specified, by far the greater number had been freed from taxation, or the duty had been reduced: the taxes upon hemp, sea-borne coals, and calico had been repealed ; those upon soap, glass, tea, and foreign wines, had been reduced; the duties on sea-poli- cies, fire-insurance, newspapers, and advertisements, had been modified or reduced ; and only sugar, foreign spirits, and tobacco, had not been touched. But it would not be safe to hold out prospects of similar re- ductions at present. He hoped, as Mr. Scholefield must have gained his object by bringing the subject before the Government and the House, that it would not be pressed to a division : and so he should move "the previous question.

Mr. HUME was bound to confess, that if Mr. Scholefield had done, more justice to the subject, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not have not been able to treat it quite so glibly as he had done— It might be very true that certain items of taxation referred to by the right honourable gentleman had been repealed or reduced since the noble lord's mo- tion ten years ago in favour of a Property-tax. But the broad state of the case was still the same ; the same inequality in the apportionment of the pub- lic burdens still continued. The higher and wealthier classes of society did not pay above 24 per cent, of the taxes, whilst the remaining 76 per cent, fell upon the middling classes and the working-man. The constant effect of the present system was to exempt property from taxation, whilst at the same time property claimed the exclusive privilege of legislating for the rest of the com- munity. A more nefarious or ruinous principle could not be conceived; and it was very important, in his opinion, that the subject should be brought forward, and that the House should have an opportunity of expressing its opinion upon it. The resolution affirmed the principle that taxation should be accord- ing to the means of the taxed— Why, under the present system, a man might have an income of 50,0001. year' and yet manage in such a manner as not to pay more taxes than a man with an income of 1001. a year. Another very hard case was, that whilst every description of personal property was taxed enormously, landed property was almost wholly exempt from taxation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to revise the whole system of taxation. He should press on those who could bear the burden, and not on those who were perishing in wretchedness from day to day.

The present distress in Birmingham had not been equalled for the last fifty years ; and the most flourishing towns, Sheffield, Manchester, and Leeds, had at last been reached by the prevailing difficulties. If the House did not take some step in time, they would, before long, be compelled to arrest an evil arising in the lower, and fast spreading in the upper classes of society.

Mr. Gommume opposed the resolution, as tending to throw every thing into irretrievable confusion. Mr. Home's statements as to the in- equality of taxation were very loose ; and it did not follow that some inequality was the worst evil—

The best mode of imposing taxes was always a disputed one ; and in this country men were long divided between the comparative merits of the systems by which either the capital of the country was made to bear its necessary ex- penses, or taxation was diffused more generally through the mass of the com- munity. People had now come pretty nearly to the conclusion that the worst system was that of at once shifting the whole burden on capital, and that it was better that the taxes should be so distributed as to fall on all classes of the community. Should the poor man, under the proposed change, get a few com- modities at a cheaper rate, this advantage would be soon overborne by the panic with which capital would be stricken, and which would throw those employed out of work.

Mr. WAHLEY did not think that the landowners would be so easily entrapped into a Property-tax as Mr. Scholefield seemed to suppose ; or that the resolution would suffice, as Mr. Hume imagined, to convince the labouring classes that the House meant to benefit them. The deep- rooted conviction of many years was not so easily to be removed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his very good-humoured speech, had told Mr. Scholefield that he had "gained his object ": if so, he must be a man of very small expectations. There was no prospect of even future or gradual relief from taxation. He gave Mr. Baring credit for sincerity, when, on entering office, he said that he should meet the diffi- tion should, as far as practicable, be employed in the hulks and dock- yards at home and in Bermuda ; and on the 30th January 1839, the Under Secretary for the Home Department directed that accommoda- tion should be prepared in the hulks for 3,500 convicts ; there being then room for only 1,789. The orders had been acted upon ; and Mr. Capper's reports on the results were before the House. But the cessa- tion of transportation, it was calculated, would increase the number in the hulks at the rate of 2,000 a year, sentenced to seven years' imprison- ment. Lord Mahon objected to this wholesale commutation of sentence, that it was stretching the prerogative of the Crown. The object of the law which gave the Secretary of State the discretionary power of com- muting sentence of transportation, was to provide for special cases of early youth, extreme age, sickness, or the like. The most favourable system of management would not make imprisonment in the hulks an equivalent substitute for transportation. Though the punishment had less moral terror, a needless degree of rigour, necessary to maintain dis- cipline in the confined space, inflicted undue suffering on the convicts. The expense of the system was another, though a less consideration. The cost to the state of a transported convict was 15/. a year ; of a con- vict in the hulks 181., or, Lord John Russell said, deducting the value of the convict's labour, 8/. But Mr. Capper's report stated that a great number of those confined in the hulks were unfit for laborious exercises ; and Lord John had fi rgotten, in his account, the cost of fitting up the hulks. It appeared that the actual expense of each convict was about 25/. a year. Sir William Molesworth had talked of the expense of mili- tary and police establishments in Australia : the argument might avail retrospectively as a set-off against a claim from the colonists grounded on the maintenance of the assigned Convicts; but now, whether we transport to Australia or not, those establishments must be kept up. Lord Mahon then argued on the loss to the country from the system of imprisonment at home—

&ties of his situation manfully ; but

He feared that, like many of his predecessors, the right honourable gentleman found he had got into a great machine which moved him forward involuntarily, and that if he turned round for a moment, he was hurried on by the ponderous weight behind him. It was that House which ought to assist the Government in relieving distress. Without its aid, the right honourable gentleman could do nothing. When he looked round that House, he did not see any noble and testy lords present. (Laughter.) He did not think there was one in the House. He did not stop to inquire what loss the people would incur if they never came back. (Laughter, and cries of " Order !" amid which some Member said, " There is one here !") Well, he did not mean to rob that noble lord of so honourable a distinction ; but he did think that on a question which amounted to the imposition of a property-tax, they had a right to hear the enlightened views of those leaders who possessed such a vast and profound knowledge on all subjects of legislation ; and the snore so as the discussion was proposed at a penod of commercial distress and embarrassment. Colonel SIBTHORP observed, that Mr. Wakley was always inveighing against the Government ; but why did he sit with them ? "Tell me your company, and I'll tell you who you are." (Laughter.) There was cer- tainly some ground for the complaint of the absence of the leading members of the Government ; for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his solitary position on the Treasury bench, seemed like an outcast sent there to do the whole business of the Government, while his colleagues were enjoying the luxurious scenes from which he was excluded. (Laughter.) Were a general election at hand, the attendance would not be so thin. Colonel Sibthorp, however, opposed the motion.

Mr. MARK PHILIPS supported the principle of the resolution ; but he advised Mr. Scholefield to withdraw it, and bring it forward again on a Budget night, or a night when there was likely to be a full attendance.

General JOHNSON urged au immediate division. The House divided ; and "the previous question" was carried, by 40 to 27.

RUM-DUTIES.

lathe House of Lords, on Tuesday, the Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the second reading of the East India Ruin Duties Bill. He briefly stated the history and objects of the measure ; which have already been explained in the debates on it in the House of Commons.

Lord ASHBURTON was favourable to the bill. The only doubt was as to the propriety of its being passed at this particular time, on account of the changes that were going on in the West Indies. Lord Ashburton asked whether it was the intention of Government to extend the reduction of duties to foreign sugars ? Great apprehension existed upon the subject, in consequence of a supposition that the pre- sent measure might be connected with the Report on Import-duties by the Select Committee of the House of Commons ; which Lord Ash- burton freely condemned— It was well known that the Committee sat very late in the session ; that many of its members were great free-trade philosophers; and that the evidence was taken most partially, and chiefly from persons who were known to be vio- lent partisans on the side of unrestricted commerce. Mr. Porter, Dr. Bow- ring, Mr. Hume, formerly of the office of the Board of Trade, and other advocates of free trade, were the principal persons examined; and the evidenee given by them consisted of the most extravagant, most exaggerated, and ab- surd statements that any person having a reputation of professional and per- sonal knowledge could possibly listen to. The Committee was altogether an ex parte one, got up for the purpose of hearing evidence on one side only, and that from persons who were already prepared for the purpose, and who after all were not very conversant with the subjects on which they were called upon to give their opinions. While this was the sort of testimony taken by the Com- mittee, they refused to hear evidence on the other side. Very important evi- dence was offered to be given, but the gentlemen on the Committee would not receive it.

The Marquis of LastsnowNE supposed that the late period of the session at which the Committee sat made it inconvenient for them to continue receiving evidence, which might have been of a different cha- racter from that already taken. At the same time, those whose evi- dence was received were persons who had a perfect right to be heard, especially the gentlemen connected with the Government. Lord Ash- burton might be supposed to allude to Mr. J. D. Hume, in whom every President of the Board of Trade had placed the greatest reliance for the last twenty years. In answer to Lord Ashburton's question, Lord Lansdowne said that the present bill was totally unconnected with any other measure whatever ; nor had it arisen out of the Report on Import- duties. But Lord Ashburton must be perfectly aware that nothing could be more inconvenient than announcing financial -intentions or discussing financial questions before Government felt it their duty to introduce specific measures for the consideration of Parliament.

Lord ASHBURTON had meant to say nothing disparagingly of Mr. J. D. Hume. The answer which Lord Lansdowne had given to his ques- tion was precisely such an answer as was given to a deputation of gen- tlemen connected with the India interest ; and that deputation had gone away with the idea that there were to be ulterior measures.

Lord MONTEAGLE thought the answer the only one that could be given under the circumstances. He concurred in many of Lord Ash- burton's remarks respecting the Report on Import-duties. The extra- vagance of some suggestions of the Committee was calculated to create alarm, and impede free trade—

He objected to the circulation of so exaggerated a Report, for the reasons ad- vanced by the noble baron opposite. Believing that it was upon the principle of free trade alone which this country could rely for an extension of her com- merce, he objected to that Report, because it prejudiced the principle itself, and might retard the application of that principle on the part of the Government and of the public.

The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday.

TRANSPORTATION AND THE HULKS.

In the House of Commons, on Tuesday, Lord MAHON proposed the fol- lowing resolution—" That, in the opinion of this House, the large increase of the number of conviets to be permanently confined in the hulks of Great Britain, although sentenced to transportation, in pursuance of the minute of the Secretary of_State for the Home Department dated 2d January 1839, is highly inexpedient." Lord Mahon regretted the indifference with which the important subject of transportation was always received by the House he remembered that a speech of Lord John Russell's, full of valuable and interesting matter, had been addressed to a House of few more than thirty Members. In his minute, Lord John Rus- sell had proposed that convicts sentenced to seven years' transporta= sincerity, when, on entering office, he said that he should meet the diffi- tion should, as far as practicable, be employed in the hulks and dock- yards at home and in Bermuda ; and on the 30th January 1839, the Under Secretary for the Home Department directed that accommoda- tion should be prepared in the hulks for 3,500 convicts ; there being then room for only 1,789. The orders had been acted upon ; and Mr. Capper's reports on the results were before the House. But the cessa- tion of transportation, it was calculated, would increase the number in the hulks at the rate of 2,000 a year, sentenced to seven years' imprison- ment. Lord Mahon objected to this wholesale commutation of sentence, that it was stretching the prerogative of the Crown. The object of the law which gave the Secretary of State the discretionary power of com- muting sentence of transportation, was to provide for special cases of early youth, extreme age, sickness, or the like. The most favourable system of management would not make imprisonment in the hulks an equivalent substitute for transportation. Though the punishment had less moral terror, a needless degree of rigour, necessary to maintain dis- cipline in the confined space, inflicted undue suffering on the convicts. The expense of the system was another, though a less consideration. The cost to the state of a transported convict was 15/. a year ; of a con- vict in the hulks 181., or, Lord John Russell said, deducting the value of the convict's labour, 8/. But Mr. Capper's report stated that a great number of those confined in the hulks were unfit for laborious exercises ; and Lord John had fi rgotten, in his account, the cost of fitting up the hulks. It appeared that the actual expense of each convict was about 25/. a year. Sir William Molesworth had talked of the expense of mili- tary and police establishments in Australia : the argument might avail retrospectively as a set-off against a claim from the colonists grounded on the maintenance of the assigned Convicts; but now, whether we transport to Australia or not, those establishments must be kept up. Lord Mahon then argued on the loss to the country from the system of imprisonment at home— By the report of the Inspectors of Prisons in Scotland, it appeared that out of 12,418 prisoners whose ages were recorded, 11,016 were between the age of 14 and 15; the age at which they would be best able to earn their livelihood. How much useful labour was lost by their confinement ! Another evil of the system of home imprisonment was, that however much the prisoner might have reformed, he could get no employment when he came out, because there existed such a strong prejudice against those who had ever been guilty of a crime. The evidence of Mr. William Miles before the Committee of 1829 was conclusive on this point. He stated that many boys now in gaol were forced back upon their old associates, even though they desired to reform, because they could not obtain labour. On one occasion a boy said to the witness, "I've no character, Sir : when I come out of prison at the end of nine weeks, who will have me? How shall I pick up a meal, unless I go and steal ? " Mr. Teague, Governor of Giltspur Street Compter, Dr. Cotton, the Ordinary of Newgate, and Mr. Capper, spoke to the same effect. So strongly is the evil felt, that a society has been formed for the ex- press purpose of providing employment for discharged convicts. France is suffering the most serious evils from the periodical discharge of con- victs from Brest and Toulon. The effect of transportation as a correc- tion of crime was of an opposite character— He maintained that there was every possible objection to the description of secondary punishments proposed by the noble lord, while it was the peculiar character of transportation that the very refuse and poison of one country be- came the support and nutriment of another ; that the parent state was relieved of its thieves and reprobates, who were turned into prosperous labourers for the enrichment of the colony, and that all this was effected by the magic of one single word—" employment." Such was the patriotic object of Mr. Pitt and his colleagues in laying the foundation of our Australian colonies. And surely they should be too happy at becoming the beneficent instruments, under Providence, for effecting such mighty good. Lord Mahon charged the Report of the Transportation Committee of the House of Commons with being one-sided and exaggerated : and he brought against it the testimony of persons high in the Church and the Law both in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. Still Lord Mahon did not approve of the assignment system : its effect is uncertain and unequal. He quoted the authority of Sir Richard Bourke as to the advantage of convict labour in the earliest settlement of a colony ; pointing to the success of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, compared with Swan River, or the uncertain prosperity of South Australia. Sir Richard contended that it would be impossible to main- tain penitentiaries on a sufficiently extensive scale to do instead of transportation ; and he suggested an improvement in the latter system, which was quoted by Lord Mahon— The system which has been pursued there (in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land) is susceptible of one great improvement—the discontinuance of assignment to private service. But in such case the period of strict servi- tude which would be devoted to public works should be shortened, and the settlers allowed to obtain the beneht of a convict's labour as a holder of a ticket- of-leave ; the bolder being compelled to seek his livelihood in a settler's service, by being restricted from setting up for himself in any trade or business during the continuance of his sentence.

Lord Mahon concluded by moving his resolution.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not consider that there was any great differ- ence of opinion between Lord Mahon and himself. Lord Mahon did not propose to continue private assignment, which was the vice of the convict system. He seemed, however, to think that with regard to

transportation, there had been no change of opinion since the Lords' Committee sat in 1835; and he did not attach due weight to the repre- sentations of the Transportation Committee of the House of Commons, which comprised leading men of all parties, and persons of great official experience. Now that capital punishment was so generally abolished, some substitute hadbecome necessary, and some progress had been made in the improvement of secondary punishments. But Lord John did not think that, until they could see their way to a better system, the House could be called upon to pronounce a definite opinion on the subject. It was very true that imprisonment in the hulks affected the comfort and endangered the health of convicts, and made it difficult for them to pro- cure employment on being released ; but if the Legislature were to in- crease the comforts of the convicts, and profess to find them employment, they would only get rid of one objection to fall into another ; for they would be offering a premium on crime. With respect to the expense, Mr. Capper's report showed that the whole cost of the convict establishment for the half-year ending 31st December 1340 was 30,233/., while the value of the labour performed was 32,472/. It was necessary to put an end to a system which made our Colonies the repositories of the crime of this country ; and he would diminish transportation as much as he could. In regard to the exercise of the prerogative, he agreed with Lord Howick, that it was better for the punishment actually inflicted to be pronounced in the sentence of the Judge ; and a bill to effect that purpose would, he hoped, be brought in this session. Lord John moved the previous question. The motion was supported by Mr. PAKINGTON. Mr. Hums entered apon the general subject of an improvement of the criminal law, urging the abolition of capital punishnient. Mr. LAW condemned the discre-

• tion at present vested in the Secretary of State. Mr. Fox NAGLE ar- gued, that the increase of convicts in the hulks was a necessary conse- quence of the abolition of the assignment system.

Lord Howica admitted the badness of the hulk system ; but the transportation system which it replaced was yet worse ; and it was im- possible to exaggerate the mischief of restoring it, to which Lord Mahon's resolution seemed to tend— There was proved to exist a general demoralization of the population of New South Wales, such as never existed on the face of the earth. The press and every criterion of public opinion showed that a feeling in favour of the convict elms existed over that of the free class in New South Wales. He trusted that this state of society had since been corrected by the non-assignment of con- victs and by the number of new settlers. It was impossible to preach to the labouriog population and to the artisans of this country of the advantages of emigration to New South Wales, and of the great demand for labour there, and at the same time to send convicts there and assign them as labourers, and state that this was the worst possible punishment.

The endeavour should be to provide proper buildings and a proper system for the discipline of the convicts at home.

On a division, the resolution was carried, by 49 to 28.

NEW SOUTH WALES LAND • FUND.

On Thursday, Mr. Gnora moved the following series of resolutions on the misappropriation of the New South Wales Land-fund-

!. That it appears that in Oct her 1840. the followiug resolutions were passed by the Governor aod Legislative Council of New Smith Wales : viz. • 1. That in the opinion of this COUlleil, the Parent Stale, indisputably deriving a direct pecuniary saving (independently of other advantages) from the assignment of convicts to pri- vate service to New South Wales, and its interests being at all eveuts in an equal if net a superior depec involved in the due c, ercion and discipline of such transformed offenders, ought in justice to bear at least one-half of the expenses attendant on the police and gaol establishments, which are raised to their present large amount chiefly through the introduction "la convict population into the colony. 2. That his Excel- lency the Governor be respectfully solieited to represent. on behalf of this Council, to her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colones, that this Council has most re- luctantly cousente I IV SO large an expenditure for the support of those establishments since the 1st July 1835. and lion voted the full amount or the estimate for the same for the year 1841, solely from a con, ictiou that it would not be justified in declining to make provision fr the maintenance of the public tranquillity and security. 3. That by the appropriation, for the period from lot July 183,5 to 31st December 1841, of so large an amount (about 517.0000 of the Colonial revenue, arisiug partly from the sale of public lauds, partly from ordinary sources, in deflaying the whole charge of the po- lies. and gaol establishments, including buildings. ausl the consequent diminution of those funds which would have been available for the iotroductiou of free labour, every branch of the productive industry of thiscolouy is in danger of falling into decay, to the great loss and iicurv not only of the colony but of the pares: state also, more cope- molly of its mauufactuling. commercial, and shipping interests.'

" II. That the above large expenses of police and gaol establishments have, since July 1835. beeu defrayed by the applicatiuu of a considerable portion of the net pro- ceeds of the sales of Crown lauds in the colony to the general purposes of the Colonial revenue.

"lit. That it appears by papers now before the House, (No. 511, 1840. No. St. 1841,) that ther« has been received from the sales of Crown lands in New South Wales, during

the period from 1831 to June 1840 inclusive, a gross total sum of £958.000 From which deduct — 1. Charges of various kinds. iuclinling expenses of the settle- meat of Port Phillip. and of protection to the aborigines . £41,300

a. Actual charge of survey and manage nent (though for eight

years paid out of the general reveoue of the colony) about 149.700 Making together about 191.000 And leaving net proceeds of sales of Crown lands to June 1840 £767,000

Whereof the sum of 502,5001. ouly hots been applied to the purposes of emigration from the United Kingdom to New South Wales.

"IV. That this 1-1,use. concurriug in opinion with the Governor and Legislative Council of New South Wales. that the charge of gaols and police in that colony ought for the preseut to be apportioned between the Colony and the Mother coutitiy, will ou Wednesday next resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose wf considering what may be the proper amount to be allotted iu the way of a fixed annual sum in aid of that charge; mot for the purpose of considerhig what may be the best meatus of making good to the laud and emigration fund of New South Wales the deduction which has been therein occasioued by the entire burden of gaols and police having been unduly thrown upon the colouy since 1835."

To illustrate the importance of the colony whose interests came under discussion, Mr. Grote set forth a few statistical figures—

The shipping freight to the colony from London and Liverpool alone, in 1839, was 49,000 tons ; while the exports from the United Kingdom were 1,700,000. The imports into Great Britain of wool alone, in 1839, were 4,900,000 pounds weight ; or nearly one-fourth of our imports from Germany cod Russia together. It contained a free population of 110,000, and a convict population of 38,000.

To this colony the greatest injury had been done by the ill-consi- dered measure of Mr. Rice in 1835, which threw upon the land-fund the entire charge of maintaining the police and gaol establishments ; heretofore considered to be a necessary part of the whole system of transportation. One plea for the measure was the flourishing state of the colony ; but it was forgotten that the revenue which made so goodly a show was swelled by the emigration-fund. Mr. Rice estimated the cost of the establishments in , ..•.:tion at 25,0001.; but their cheapness at that time arose from '1,e gross neglect with which the Home Go- vernment permitted the gaols to be managed—no person could enter them without a feeling of horror. Under a more careful provision, the cost had increased to a total expenditure of 597,000/. since 1835. And whatever were the cost, there was no sufficient reison for throwing it upon the colony ; whose peculiar circumstances exonerated it from such a charge— He begged the House to recollect, that there were 110,000 free settlers in that colony, and 38,000 of convict population. It must therefore be obvious, that the expense of gaols and police for the maintenance of law and order must be very extravagant in comparison with what it was in this country. He did not contend that if this had been an entirely free colony the expense of its gaols and police should be borne by the Mother-country; but this was a colony which was little toore, in the first instance, than a penal settlement. The experiment in forming that colony was not that of settlers who had gone from this country at their own charge, but of persons who had been sent out as convicts to undergo punishment. Looking, then, to this charge, although be admitted that the colony should bear the expense of its own gaols and po- lice, he thought a certain portion of it, arising, as it evidently did, from the continuance of the transportation system, should be borne by the Mother- country. He did not intend to contend for the extension of any favour to the colony ; but he thought that it ought not to be called upon to pay the whole of the expense of making itself a receptacle for the convict population of this country. The chief argument in favour of the change was, that the expense a gaols and police was to be borne by the colonists as an equivalent for the advantage which they derived from the assignment of convicts. The argument had been fully met by the colonists— The Legislative Council and the colonists said to the Mother-country- " You deal with the system of assignment as if it were all gain to us and all loss

to you ; whereas it was as much a matter of gain to the Mother-country as it

was to the Colony." In point of fact, it was a mere matter of arrangement be- tween this country and the colony ; and in consequence of the character of the population sent out, being such as to require an enormous police, it was a fair ground for saying that this country should bear a portion of the expense—that the charge should be equally divided between the two. Honourable gentlemen should recollect the great expense that would fall upon this country for the maintenance of her criminal population if this system of assignment had not existed. He believed that the lowest estimate would make it from 25/. to 344 a head ; and that the whole charge for a small number of years would have amounted to from 600,000/. to 900,000/. If the expense of the support and clothing of an assigned convict was not a sufficient reward for the assignment of his labour, then the corollary was, that a premium ought to be demanded in each case as an equivalent. If this doctrine were to be maintained, you should make the assignee of the convict pay as much for the labour of the convict, in addition to his maintenance and clothing, as would he sufficient. But nothing could justify the charge of this payment on the aggregate population of the colony. In doing this, they were going back to the principle of the system which had been so strongly reprobated in this country, and were making pay- ments of wages, as it were, out of the rates.

Many high authorities acquainted with the colony condemned the new arrangement. The Earl of Ripon last year distinctly stated that

half of the expense ought to be borne by the Mother-country. And Lord Normanby, while Colonial Minister, had urged the Treasury to reconsider the question. The Treasury replied by talking of lavish expenditure which had taken place in the colony ; but that, true or not, did not do away with the fact, that burdens to the amount of 100,000/. a year had been imposed on the colony. That quite sufficed to explain all their financial difficulties. Since 1835, 265,000/. had been spent in addition to the ordinary Colonial revenue. The balance fell upon the emigration-fund ; and the consequence was, that emigration was hin- dered, and might, if the House did not interfere, be stopped altogether. Not only would the most serious ills result from such a stoppage—not only would the process of equalizing the proportion of the sexes, neces- sary to remove the worst evils in the colony, be checked, and the supply of labour, so painfully needed by the colonists, be cut off, but the poor in this country would be denied their rights— Had not the poorer classes in this country, who could not obtain adequate remuneration for their labour at home, and who hail been prevented from emi- grating to the colony in consequence of the abstraction of this fund, just grounds for complaining ? Was it not obvious that the Government bad withheld from large bodies of the poor and industrious population of this country the means of permanently bettering their condition by emigration to a place where there was such an urgent demand for labour, by allowing this charge to be made on the Colonial fund? In every 1,000/. taken from this fund, fifty poor persons might be sent to the colony. For Mr. Grote contended that the waste lands were not the exclusive property of the colony, but that they belonged in an equal degree to the colonizing country. Faith had been broken with the colonists. The earlier emigrants received free grants of land ; and when a change was made, by which waste lands were sold instead of being granted, it was understood that the purchase should be a were conversion of capi- tal, and that the proceeds should be devoted to the uses of the pur- chasers. And large purchases had been made on the faith of that understanding— From papers on the table of the House, it appeared that there had been re- ceived from the sales of Crown lands in New South Wales, during the period from 1831 to June 1840 inclusive, a gross amount of 958,0001. If the inha- bitants of the colony, or if emigrants with capital, had been sure that none or only a small portion of this money would have been expended in promoting emigration, he felt satisfied that, instead of its amounting to 950,0001., it would not have been 9,5001.: the sales of Crown lands would have been little or no- thing, if the opinion had not been generally entertained that this fund would have been applied to emigration purposes : and the inhabitants of the colony had good reason to believe this, after the solemn and repeated declarations of successive Colonial Ministers.

Mr. Grote quoted official despatches—by Lord Howick, Under- Secretary for the Colonies in 1831, declaring the opinion of Lord Goderich that the revenue derived from land ought not to be regarded as part of the Colonial revenue, but as sunk capital applicable to emi- gration; by Lord Glenelg, in 1836, recommending that the whole of the emigration-fund should be devoted to emigration purposes ; and by the same in 1837, directing one-third of the land-fund to be expended in bounties for the repayment of private importers of emigrants, and two-thirds in public emigration from this country. It was hardly ne- cessary, Mr. Grote remarked, to multiply quotations on this head, as these were so clear and specific.

When Mr. Grote bad reached this point in his speech, General Jonts- sox moved that the House be counted; and only thirty Members being present, the House adjourned, at a quarter before seven.

COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS.

Before going into Committee on the Copyright of Designs Bill, on Wednesday, Mr. LABOUCHERE suggested, that as very extensive altera- tions had been made in the bill, it would be proper to have it reprinted. Mr. EMERSON TENNENT said, that the alterations were merely verbal ; and that to postpone the bill would be hardly fair to a great number of persons who had come to town on purpose to be present at the discus- sion. Mr. HUE, however, contended that the House was taken by surprise, by the extension of the bill to fresh articles. Mr. TENNENT observed, that it had formerly been asserted that the calico-trade were opposed to the bill ; but he had since taken great pains to scrutinize the facts, and the result was quite opposite. In Manchester alone, where piracy was extensively practised, was there any opposition to the mea- sure? Out of 179 firms in the Three Kingdoms, only 36 were against it ; of 16.000 printing-tables, the possessors of only 2,319 were against it ; the employers of 43,000 hands were for it, of 7.450 against it ; the producers of 17,000,000 of pieces were for it, of 4,500,000 against it. Mr. WAR- BURTON objected to proceeding with the bill : when a new branch of trade was introduced into a bill, the alterations should originate in a Committee of the whole House. Ultimately the motion was withdrawn;

and on Thursday Mr. TERMER'S complied with the requisite forms, by reintroducing his bill in a Committee of the whole House. MISCELLANEOUS.

Szvunas BANK Srocs. In reply to Mr. HUME, on Monday, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that a portion of the monies 'belonging to the Savings Banks had been used by Government, as in former years : Ministers were responsible for this exercise of a discre- tion vested in them by the law. _

NOTICES OF MOTIONS. On Thursday, Mr. LABOUCHERE gave no- tice, that on the 1st of April he should move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of the law respecting Joint- Stock Companies and Joint-Stock Banking Companies ; and that on the same day he should ask for leave to bring in a bill on the subject of bonding warehouses. Mr. Fox MAME gave notice, that on Tuesday next he should move for leave to bring in a bill respecting the employ- =ant of children and young persons in the silk-manufacture. And

EWART, understanding from Mr. E. J. STANLEY that only half the Regent's Park is to be thrown open to the public, and that there is to be no alteration with respect to Richmond Park, announced his inten- tion of moving an address to the Crown praying that the Regent's Park be opened to the public.

THE MARYLEBONE PAUPER EMIGRANTS. Lord FITZALAN, On Thursday, drew Lord John Russell's attention to the proposed emigra- tion of single female paupers from Marylebone parish [an account of -which appears in our Metropolitan news.] Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no knowledge of the subject except from the newspapers : but the proposed application of the parish funds was most improper ; and an inquiry into the matter had been instituted. In answer to Colonel WOOD, Mr. Fox MAULE said that the Poor-law Commissioners had no power to stop the proceeding, as the parish was under a local act.

LORD WALDEGRAVE. In reply to Mr. Hums, on Thursday, Mr. Fox Maumi said that the Home Secretary had always set his face against pecuniary compromises of legal penalties ; and none would be allowed in the case of Lord Waldegrave and Mr. Duff, who had been prosecuted for assaulting a policeman. The parties would he brought up for judgment in the Court of Queen's Bench at the commencement -of next term.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On Tuesday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL Fave notice, that on the 6th of April he should move that the House at Its rising should adjourn to Tuesday the 20th.

ELECTION ComatrrrEss.

The Sudbury Election Committee, which began with the evidence on Saturday last, has closed the inquiry. The evidence generally corroborated the statement of the counsel for the petitioners, that Mr. James Aeland was ready at the time of the election to oppose Mr. Tomline, the sitting Member; but that he waited to see if Mr. Bagshaw would come for- ward : that the Mayor was requested to wait a little, after Mr. Tomline had been proposed, and he agreed to wait a minute: that Mr. Bagshaw was accordingly proposed and seconded; but that the Mayor said that the minute had expired, and declared Mr. Tomline elected. There was -only one point of discrepancy in the evidence: according to Mr. Acland, who was examined by the Committee, the Mayor told him, the evening before the election, that he knew that Mr. Bagshaw was about to stand ; but Mr. Spooner, the Mayor, declared that he told Mr. Acland that there was no intention of proposing Mr. Bagshaw. On Wednes- day, the Committee decided that Mr. Tomline was duly elected ; and that neither the petition nor the opposition was frivolous or vexatious. The decision is understood to have rested upon the assumption that Mr. Bagshaw had no bond fide intention of standing as candidate. One of the witnesses explained that the freemen were always anxious for a con- test, as they wished for money : the payment for votes is called in Sad. bury by the plain name of "bribery," and not "head-money." The last election at Sudbury was a " dry " one.

The St. Alban's Election Committee met on Wednesday, and have since continued the inquiry from day to day. The petition against Lord Listowelfs return alleges bribery and corruption ; but more is attempted than merely to substantiate that charge. It is carefully stated, that after Mr. Bond Cabbell, the rejected candidate, had begun to canvass • the borough, Dr. Webster, on whom it is attempted to fix a charge of agency for Lord Listowel, came to London in a post-chaise, went to Mr. Coppock the Parliamentary agent's, in Cleveland Row, and after staying there a few minutes, proceeded to the Treasury, and thence back to St. Alban's; being joined by Lord Listowel on his return. Dr. Webster was the instrument of one of the alleged acts of bribery : he .cdfered a man named Adams a sum of money for his vote, but Adams -refused to be bought : Mr. Cabbell's supporters, however, bearing of the circumstance, persuaded him to throw himself again in Dr. Web- ster's way, and to take the money ; which he did, and afterwards de- livered it sealed up to the Mayor at the polling-place : it was enclosed in a note, and taken back to Dr. Webster by Lord Grimston : Dr. Webster seemed confused, and refused to have any thing to do with it ; but it was left with his sister. Various cases of bribery also are alleged against a Mr. Edwards. From the course of the evidence as far as it has gone, the chief difficulty seems to be to prove that Dr. Webster and Mr. Edwards were the recognized agents of Lord Listowel.

The Walsall Election Committee also assembled on Wednesday, and have gone on with the investigation daily. Bribery and treating are the allegations against the return of Mr. Gladstone. The evidence goes to show abundance of the ordinary treating—eating and drinking at the New Inn in Walsall. A person named Patch, an accountant of London, is one of the witnesses By his own account, he was suffered to busy, himself in procuring drink for voters, though he had not a regular " retainer " ; and he said that before the election he was sent by a person named Brookes to Manchester, to fetch Nightingale, "the head of the Chartists." On the part of Mr. Gladstone, however, a series of letters was produced, addressed by Patch to Mr. Barnett, who is said to be an agent of Mr. Gladstone's, asking, not for remuneration for services, though the letters imply that that was due in honour, but for a loan of money. Patch hints that he has been summoned as a witness for the petitioners, and asks Mr. Barnett's " advice " on the matter. But here also the difficulty seems to be to prove that Mr. Gladstone was cognizant of the proceedings of his friends.