igebatrii anti PramWind in parliament. 1. IRISH CHURCH REFORM.
The House of Commons was thronged on Alottday night by an un- 'usually large attendance of Members. Every seat in the House was taken, and the Members GaHelios s'ere also full. All the passages and the lobby svere crowded some time before five o'clotk, when the Speaker took the chair. Every thing bore witness to the snxiety with which the Alinisterial communications and the subsequent debate were expected. Lord slimmer being called upon by the Speaker, said, he rose to 'move the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on Mr. Ward's motion respecting the appropriation of Irish Church pro- perty, which stood for that evening. .He would also take the opportu- nity of entering into some explanation of the cireutnstances which had induced him, on the Tuesday previous, to move the adjournment of the debate. As there were differences in the Cabinet respecting the mode in ivhich Mr. Ward's motion should be met,—some of the members coinciding with the principle laid down in it, and others strongly disapproving of it,—he had gone down to the House on Tues- day with the intention of moving the previous question. While in the House, he received the intelligence of the resignation of Mr. Stanley, Sir James Graham, the Duke of Richmond, and Lord Ripon ; and under these circumstances had thought that to move the adjournment of the House was the best step he could take. The Government being relieved from difficulty by the resignation of those gentlemen, they had adopted a course which he would now explain to
Thoy had advised his Majesty to issue a Commission. and that commission was to be a lay commission, having power to visit all the pariehes and ecclesiastical divisions iu Ireland. for the purpose or ascertaining in ea.+ of them the number of members of the Establishml Church, not only in each union, but in each separate parish in each union; also the number of Ministers of the Established Church. in each union and parish respectively, of whatever rank, and whether resident or not, and the number of times divine service is usually performed in each, and the number of persons attending such services—that is, the average number ; and whether the same he increasing, or diminishitig, or stationary; with similar information respecting the number of Roman Catholics, Presby terians. and other Dissenters, in each parish, with every particular re- specting the moral and religious education of the people; the number of schools esta- blished in each parish, whether they were increasing, diminishing, or stationary, and the satio particulars respecting the children attending them ; likewise, whether in any or all of the parishes there did appear to the Commissioners adequate means for the purposes of mural and religious instruction fur the people. The Commissioners to re- port not only on these subjects, but on all other matters relating to the moral, political. and religious condition of the members of the Church, and of those belonging to the various denominations of Dissenters, so as to acquire as complete a comparative know led., of the relation in which those several clauses of religionists stood towards each Oilier as circumstances permitted. Having in that way proposed to make known Ow numberof Catholics and Protestants in each parish and union respectively, he was sure the House would do th..an the justice to believe that they had not given advice to his Majesty to issue such a Commission unless they were prepared to follow up that advice by acting upon the report to be made by the Commissioners in such manner as the exigency of the case might seem to require.
He thought that inquiry ought to precede legislation ; and therefore Le requested Mr. Ward to postpone for the present the motion which stood for discussion that night. Mr. Ward must see that the inquiry Was sufficiently comprehensive, and accompanied with a pledge that the results of that inquiry would be called into full and beneficial activity.
Mr. WARD admitted that inquiry was necessary before proceeding beyond the declaration of the principle embraced in his resolution. He admitted also, that the inquiry as proposed would be full and searching; and if he were certain of Lord Althorp's continuance in office, there would be some security that the report of the Commissioners would be acted upon. But there was no security that the present Ministers would remain in office; and then the report of the Commission might be mere waste paper in the hands of their successors. He wished therefore to stipulate for a Parliamentary sanction of the inquiry. It would be lamentable if nothing were gained in point of principle, while so much was lost in point of talent, by the secession of the retiring members of' the Cabinet. , Upon the whole, nothing had occurred to in- duce him to swerve from his original intention of pressing the motion to a division.
The order of the day was read. Lord ALTHORP then said, that it became his duty to address the House on the general question.
in the tirst clause of Mr. Ward's resolution he entirely concurred,—namely, the right of Parliament to dispose of the surplus revenue of the Church in any manner that might seem the most just and expedient; but. being a consenting party to the advice given to the Crown respecting the issue of a Commission, he could not consistently as- sert a principle which went to anticipate what might be the report of that Commission. Whatever might be his own individual opinion as to what that report would contain,— Whatever might be proved thereby, he still thought, that as a member of the Govern• men; he could not call upon the House to pronounce an opinion at that stage of the question, but, on the contrary, it would be his duty to recommend them not to come to say decision. Ile never haft swerved from the principle that the Established Church ought to be maintained; but Ile thought that the result of the inquiry would be most favourable to its continued maintenance, and therefore had he united in recommending that commission. Ile was clear in the conviction, that an application of the surplus revenues of the Church to religious awl moral education would tend not only to
advance the well understood interests of the Establishment, but of Protestantism generally.
But after a commission had been actually issued by the Crown, it Was plain that no practical result would arise from adopting the resolu- tion. Suppose the motion carried, how would the condition of those Who supported it be improved ? Ile did not see the utility, before Members were in possession of such information on the subject as would enable them to decide what course to pursue, of asserting a right which, if the House was at all constituted as at present, he was confident it would exercise, whenever a case for its interference was made out, and of which, if the House should be differently constituted, no assertion in the present session would be at all binding on a future Parliament.
Be then alluded to the present state of the Tithe Bill— Though it was, from the first, intended by Government that nothing contained it, tleu bill should have the effect of prejudging the question as to the :tppropriation Church property to the exigencies attic State, yet it was thought by many gentlemen ca both sides of the iiouse, and mote especially by those connected with the represen- tation of Ireland, that it would be prejudgol by the bill as originally framed As, how- ever, his Majesty's Ministers wished to leave that question open, they resolved to omit the whole of the clauses relatiug to the redemption of tithe.
The circumstances under which he had intended to move the .poe.. vious question on Tuesday, were very different from those which now existed. On Tuesday, be could not have announced that Alinisters had taken up the subject seriously. Now he could state that a Commission had been actually issued, and that Mr. Ward's proposition of an address
to the Crown to ssue one was therefore quite unnecessary. Ile was ready to adinit, that the fate of his proposition must depend upon the degree of confidence the House was stilling to repose in Ministers. Lord Althorp concluded by tnoving the previous question.
The amendment having been put from the Chair,
Mr. Hums said, that although lie could trust Lord Althorp indivi- dually, he could not trust the Administration of which he formed a part; and be would state why. Out the l2th of February last year, Lord Abhor'', after enumerating the value of Church property iii Ireland, concluded his spiych by deelaring. " that if by the act of Parliament which would be introduced. any new Vallie was given to bowfieee, that new value so created did not properly belong to the Church, aunt si hatever was raised by it might be immediately appropriated to the exigencies of the State." He then admitted the whole principle involved in the motion of the Meunier fin St. Allians ; and all doubt OH the subject was renamed by the cultism o Inch was followed with respect to the 147th clause of the Irish Church Bill. 'flue Conservatives sitting to Ids right, who had that night cheered some otitis observations of Lord A lthotp. objected to that elause ; which was, however, supported by Minister,. anil carried by a majority of :3740. 'fhlt clause Mr. flume ulivis s Leg:inks' its the most essential part or tho hill, because it ad- mitted the principle that Pai liaineut had a right to deal with the property of tho Church. But what followed interwards? The noose, tuber affirming that principle by a large majority, was induced, in consequence or ilifIer.mees in the Cabinet, which many sin:pocksl at the tinw, Nit of which in, one had any precise knowledge. to assant to the rejection of the elause by ti majority just as large as OM by is ti-hi it taw at first beell carried; and the only reason given fur this extraordinary proceeding was, that the retention of the clause in imestion might have the effect of preventing the hill passing through t lie oilier !louse of Parliament. At that time no objection was ex- pressed to the prineipal clause by the gentlemen opposite, not even by the Lute Secretary fur the Colonies IA hen lie saw an Arlon nisi rat iell thILS shifting backwards and lbr- wards, and holding au undecisive course o it It respect to such a vitally important ,ques. lion as that now under consideration, he must say that he lUr one could not consent to place confidence its them. There wits no nesessity for appointing another Commission ; for there was one already in existence, (of stitich Sir Henry Parnell and Sir John Newport were members), whose inquiries were directed to the same subject, with the exception of the numerical proportions of Churchmen and Catholic Dissenters. Ministers would be in it no worse situation by assenting to the motion than they were at present. Why refuse to sanction a principle which they admitted to be correct ; Colonel DAVIES and Colonel EVANS wished to see the principle of Mr. 1Vard's resolution expressly sanctioned by the House, and would therefore vote against the amendment.
Colonel CONOLLY in very strong language expressed his detestation of the original motion, and of the mode in which Ministers had met it.
Ile eo[dil barely trust himself to use the strong terms which arose in his mind on this subject. Ile denied the premises on which the proposition before the House rested, Ile deuie the right of Parliament to deal with the property or the Chun:11. Ile denied that any such right existol, unless indeed such a right should he contended for aa mould unsettle every kind or property in the country. Let Members see to what ex- tent thi. mriiuciple %%mild ga. Wien ropily could be said to be sate if it were once adopted ? Was there any title or any land which could be der•meil secure ? as there security for any thing which 111,11 usually held sacred? Was the Royal word—was any charter —was any patent a secerity for any thing, it' this principle were once sanc- tioned by the [louse? Was it not ervirm havoc, and lettiim loose the uloga of war?" Was it not upsetting every thing which men held sacred in the country ? That it was the first step to such a course, no man could delay, who allowed the experience of other C ,s and former cilcumstances to guide him.
He eulogized the manly and consistent conduct of Mr. Stati4ey; which he contrasted with that of his late colleagues, who ought to have opposed the destructive motion before the House with a direct negative.
They were now going broadly: upon the principle of robbery. (Cheers and laughter.) He would repeat it, it was robbery ; for whose property or estates Weltill be Bale if this principle were once adopted ? t5 ho could think themselves secure when tbey saw the property of the Chinch dins spuliated to satisfy clamour, and that too a clamour which the Government could have put down if they hail only used the means which the Par- liament had placed at t ti ir disposal ? Ile could go on on this subject or ever, (Laujhter.1 His soul was full ut execrations —(../ar,„.Ater)—to s■ hick he could not give utteraiwe. Ile would only say that ue would not pollute himself by voting for either of the (mosses painted out—that of the Member fur St. Albans, or that proposed by Government.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL deplored the loss which the Government bad sustained by the secession of Mr. Stanley and his friends. It was a source to his remaining colleagues of deep and sincere regret. But he would ask Mr. Hume, was it probable that Ministers would have parted with such colleagues without adopting the principle for the assertion of which these colleagues had retired from office? He maintained that, in point of principle, there was really no difference between the course adopted by Government and that pointed out by Mr. Ward's resolution. The resolution said u that the Protestant Episcopal Establishment in Irel.trul ez- ceculs the spiritual wants of the Protestant population." That certainly would be as- serting a proposition %Inch ought to rest on some facts for its proof ,anal how could such proof be ob.aiiied better than by inquiry ? The motion next a:serteil the " right of the State to regulate the distribution ut Church propert y in such manner as Parlia- ment may determine." sow, would it not he [Lbsurd to appoint ii commission or In- quiry. unless they were ready to deal with the surphis of Church propel ty beyond the w,ons of the Prot..stant population ir any sueli should be found? 'rite appointment GI the Commission :Armed that part of .s1r. Ward's inot ion. Then as to tile remain- ing part of the [notion. " that the temporal possessions of the Church of Ireland, as now e.taldishel by ins, ought to be reduced," he would put it to the tfouse—he woulu1 put it to Mr. Ward himself—MI.411er such a proposition ought not to rest Oil some lads? Ile would say. as lii, own individual opinion. that the funds of the Protestant Church were not properly applimt. as iar as related to the religions eilucivion of the people of that country. awl tocretiore that such wee might be safely I....lured with the view to impruviug the means of education ; but this Opilli011 ought to be coufirmed by itmairy, benne it could he acted upon ; fur lie would repeat tInit it would he con- trary to all Parliamentary practice to vote a resolution first, and then inquire into it afterwards.
Mr. STANLEY also began by expressing his reluctance to secede from his former colleagues, who had acted together on the most kindly terms, without even so much as havinggiven one another even an angry word. But he had no choice its a man of' honour and principle. The commission of itiquiry involved a principle destructive of' the Church to which as a Protestant he was attached—of the religion he loved—of the altar at which lie worshipped. The motion of Mr. Ward, coupled with the speeches of Lord Althorp and Lord John Russell, showed that the same principle pervaded all ; and to such a principle he never would conhent. every member of that Church, whether residing in a thiely-peopled district or in one snore densely inhabited, the means of religious instruction, which, by the blessing of God, we should preserve to them without fee. Ile wits net willing to see the time come in which the Ministers of the Crown. in moving the Estimates for the support of the clergy, should have to congratulate the House that the di:Mil:dim of Protestantism in Ireland since the lest assembly of Parliament had enabled them to take off the sum or ts,000/. front the Church Estimates for tlw preceding year. " I know," continued Mr. Stanley, "that if you act upon sue!' a principle, it w ill he destructive of the utility, and I may add, of the permanency attic Establishcal Church. I believe that it will be aubversive of the reverence hitherto paid to its ministers; and I know that in certaiu pans of Ireland it will be aceompanied by fatal steps to render the number of Pro. testante so small as to justify a proportionate diu kk i ll ution of the grant to the Protestent eltirgy. I know that, even in the present state of things, the title of emigration is flow. lug out from many parts of Ireland in a deep, a full, and a rapid euuent. I will nut iutroduee any bother incitement to sioltmee in that country. by say ing publicly and with authority to its people. ' Diminish the number of Protestants in your parishes, for by MI doing you will diminieh the burthins whielt press most heavily upon you.'" (prod cheering.) This cluctrine of proportion is preguant with &roger, as applied to Ireland ; and I I once athuitted, is searcely preenaut trill' less danger us applied to England. I ask you. Sir. upon what ground 'sill any Minister who has done away with &Protestant living in Ireland. because the incumbeut of it bad a diminished thick, staud forward in this llouse lwrearter, when a I tissenter caw Out of what denomina- tion—COMPH fora ard and shows by figures, which cannot be contradicted, that in this parish and in that parish the Protestant congregation belonging to the Established Church is vely small, and ought not to be an iucumbrauce upon the fivances of the State.
H. the House began to: tamper with church property, to this conclu- sion it must come at last, that all religions ought to be placed on the same footing. Now, he would tell the house boldly and distinctly, that the country was not ripe for that, nod that it ought to pause before assenting to a resolution which the people of England would not suffer to be carried ioto effect. " I did not think," said Mr. Stanley, " that
should ever live to bear a Alinister of the Crown propose such a re- solution; I do not think I have yet seen the Legislature which will pass it ; and I am not certain that I know the Sovereign who will give his assent to it, even if it be passed." [Prodigious cheering followed the delivery of this passage.] Mr. Stanley concluded with avowing his intention to vote with Ministers for the previous question, as the only certain means of defeating AIL Ward's resolution ; though, if the forms of the House had permitted him, he should much rather have given the original resolution a direct negative.
Mr. SPRING RICE said, the main difference between Mr. Stanley aid himself was this— seconding to the doctrines of Mr. Stanley, be the revenues of the Church of Ireland ever so great,—be titey the source of incumlurance or even of mischief to the Church of Ireland,—still, by reason of eireunistiowes extrinsic to that Church, you are bound to continue for ever that which by the hypothesis is an incumbrance and a tnischief, and to withhold that remedy which by the same hypothesis was most beneficial.
But to this he never would agree.
lie iota heard much about the mode ofappropriating the Church property ; but that the question at present. The question was as to asserting the right of Parlia- . =cut to th•al with that surplus, if any surplus should be proved to exist above the necessary purposes of the Church. Beyond thst he would not y ield a single point. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that it were to be stated that every incumbeut in England received only 2631.a year,and that every incumbent in Ireland received a much larger surn,Avould any man say that that as a state or things a hich that llouse either could or ought to defend ? It was upon these grown& that lus seeing that the Commis.. skin, which was about to issue, involved the principle of the resolution moved by Mr. Ward, in ease the evidence proved the surplus wealth of the Church of I rellaud—keep- lug his mind open as to the mode in which the appropriation or that property was hereafter to be ntatle, but admitting at the vers outset that, if there su ere a surplus, there was no objection on the part of Ministers, suppi,rted hirliament, to deal a itlt it ,i1 was upou these amulets, that he maintained that this Commission would give to the House aud to the country all that gentlemen had a right to expect.
Mr. EWART and Mr. LAMBERT spoke earnestly in favour of the ori- ginal resolution.
Mr. O'CONNELL deemed the Commission a mere pretence—a wet blanket to stifle what the country required, but which Ministers had not sufficient determination and manliness to give ; he meant satisfac- tion to Ireland and security to England,—for, blessed be God, there would be no security for England unless satisfaction were afforded to Ireland. Mr. Stanley had avowed his principles manfully: he was consistent ; but what became of his late colleagues' consistency? He laughed to scorn Mr. Stanley's principle, which he could tell him had been tried for two hundred years in Ireland and had failed. It com- menced with blood, rapine, and heart-burnings, and had continued with the like consequences to the present time. But nevertheless, absurd as it was, Mr. Stanley had relinquished oflice on this principle, and Mi- nisters had remained in office upon it. The difference between them was this—that Mr. Stanley boldly avowed his principles, while Ministers did oot venture to maintain theirs. As to the Commission of inquiry, there would be no end to it; it would be like Penelope's web.
Thiti unsatisfactory Commission us as what was now offered to Ireland, instead of a full and healing and yet even abed this paltry Commission gentlemen could not egos., beeause it resented to proinise something, however remote or Mcomplet V, for that unhappy country. Oh how unanimous you were %%hen you were coercing Ireland there was then no difference in the Cabiact, you infiieled courtsmartial upon I Leland about hositatiou or dispute! When you were about to coerce Ireland you were per- fectly unanimous, but now in the work of conciliation you acre for the titst time divided ! Those alio had separattal thew selves from Ministers on this occasion had at h•ast ;tete.' an open and manly part ; not so I hi • who remained iu the ('all net. With respect to them he mould say, •• Ism shrink Frs.!! ffirmiug what is or ought to be y. our melt principle; you offer us a nugatory and decept use Commissitm ; you throw this tor- toise shell over yourselves in order that you may have a chance or creeping at a nairs pace out of the difficulty." Meanwhile, we were likely to have a winter of blood, and it sprit' j of more coercion. It behoved the House to do justice on the preset .C.• casion.
OW people of Ireland read this debate, and saw that, insheul of endue:lc:les the peat principle of appropriation, it merely related to little personal watters,—and alien they saw the M Wisteria' majority against the professed pritiviple or the nuinerity,—a =quell y swelled by the late Secretary for the Colitis's and Its °Owls, wit,,' snivel was the result of a calming and equivocal friendship.—wiethl not the people reel great disappointment and indignation, and would not they moils him to scoot it lie were to give Minklers his confidence? Would they not say, Mid with appatent justice. Our suppesed friends and advocates are miserably deluded, or else they are debut: rs in sup- porting Ministers; they are truckling to the Government a lilt private views, and cm deavouring to promote their own interests at the expense of their conntry.
The people of Ireland were now anxious to join the rooks of Go- vernment ; but they would not accept chaff for wholesome food. They demanded acts and deeds that admitted of no mistake. They despised the Commission of inquiry, which Ministers offered without pledging themselves to any thing but a quarrel with Mr. Stanley. lle was j - ready to do Mr. Stanley justice, but it must be admitted that he had done much mischief to tile Government. Ile had swamped the Minis- try, and from the first hour had been its evil genius. Howe% er, he had parted with his late colleagues on good terms: a very pathetic scene followed: Mr. Stanley appeared at first to weep a little, but lie soon resumed the attitude of boldness. He wished Ministers would do the same, and act the lion's part.
Mr. CHARLES GRANT thought it strange that Mr. O'Connell, who called for acts, not words, should object to so decided an act as the issuing of a Commission. All the objections which applied to the Commission applied also to Mr. Ward's motion, for the end of that was the appointment of a Conunission. There was no division in the Cabinet on the subject now.
lie could assure the House, and Ise trusted that the charaeter of the members of the Cabinet. as tnen of honour and of honesty, at till events as men of common sense and common understatuling, would be hilt as fully bearing bin, out in the assttion. that they- would uot have considered themselves justified in proposing the iss ll ll g C.is Commission, if amongst the members of the Cabinet there existed' the slightest dissent upon such a vital measure.
Sir ROBERT PEEL explained at length and with much formality the difliculty in which lie was placed by the motion of " the rrevions (Ines- tion ;" for he wished to give the resolution a direct negative—to fight the battle upon principle. If he voted for the previous questiell, might seem to approve of the measures of Alinisters—which he strom.2.!y disapproved of; if lie voted against it, he would seem to ally Ida:, k with the enemies of the Church and he could not absent hini.,ea altogether, for that was not a untidy or straightforward ran. On the whole, he would vote for the previous question, though strongly pro- testing against being supposed to approve of the Commission. If the principle of this Commission were applied to the Church of Bawd. it would soon be extended to the English Church too. What would be the consequence of extending the principle to private property—fur to private property the same principle would soon be applied? On what new title was property to depend if not upon prescription and the laws of the realm ? Most assuredly, the Dissenters in England would soon call out for the same treatment as that which the Irish DissrlveN received ; and Sir Robert read several passages from ?Jr. Ward'i speech in ptoof of his assertion that the measure led to this result. Tile motion was also calculateal to alienate the minds of the Protestants, who It consented—reluctantly consented--to the remos al of Roman Catholic disabilitu, .11 time strongest assurance that by their removal they would and did redressis i1 grievance. It was too smell now to tell these men, who saw the faithful minister- a the Church to which they belonged robbed by every species of rombination and rssist. once, that the revenues might be st•vt•red 'rem the Protestant Church, and be :was priated to the Establishment of another faith against which they protested. To do this would be to give a shock to Protestant feeling in Ireland—would argue an indifference to all religion—would involve not a question or truth, but of civil policy ; awl such a course was calculated not only to shock the very foundations of other ptoperty in that country, but also to sever the links which bound Ireland to thus country (hi' *nutlet to the Legishitive Union) almost as much as if the Legislature had assenual to the motion recently submitted to its consideration by the Member for the city of Dublin. Mr. O'llEtt.i.v was utterly opposed to any new appropriation of Irish Church property. Mr. CLA1 spoke in favour of the original resolution ; and Mr. HAWES and Mr. BARRON for the amendment. Sir ROBERT INous thought he saw considerable discrepancy in the opinions and views of several members of the Cabinet : Lord Altitorp and Lord John Russell appeared to differ considerably tiont Mr. Spring Rice. He would himself vote for the previous question, as the least disagreeable course he could take.
Lord PALMERSTON denied strongly that there was any difference of opinion on the subject among the members of the Cabinet.
If it were urged that the Government had not shown any intention to act mull IF! Commission of inquiry, Ilk answer was this : he appealed to tht• speech of Mr. se and to the difference of opinion which subsisted on this subject between the meia',H of the late Cabinet. This was of itself enough to show that the ttovernnitint itt suing a Commission had not been actuated by such motives as were attenipled It si imputed to them. This showed that they were prepared to act tat the principle it a Parliament was conmeteut to regulate the revenues of the Churt•Ii. He differed entirely from Sir Robert Peel on several points— lie was prepared to affirm, in opposition to the premises laid down by Sir Robert, the principle that the property of the Church was not to be Ivo:sell itt in the sanis light as the proswrty of individuals • and that it was for the Legislature to detts wii! in what manner that property, whirl, had been granted for certain trusts and lump seis hould be distributed. It was idle to argue from one species or I overly to the oiler, for the circumstances that affected each were not equally applicable.
Mr. D. BnowN supported the resolution.
it was impossible that a religion which embraced three-fourths of th • Trish popula- lion should continue any longer to be a tolerated sect. There.was no instance III In' rope of such an anomaly but in Irt•land. It was argued that the lhotestant religion should be exclusively maintained by the State, because tithes were the sources of its n•ventte; butt Protestant landlords got their laud subject to tithe before there %VW:my Protestants at all. (Loud and :ontinued laughter.) It was a very easy thing to howls (Lanyhter renewed.) Ile meant that their aucestors aud represeutativcs had received laud subjected to these restrictions. Mr. ELLICE dwelt upon the misery which the tithe system inflicted upon Ireland; and maintained that lie was noW ready, as he had always been, to support measures which would give security to the Church and
relief to the Catholics.
Ile would not have cousented to the issuhig of a Commission to conceal his Owl opinions ; anti lie felt bound to state that IliS III>Ill`St istsstioa was, and lie nuke as a member of the GoverunicuLto act upon the report which that Conamissiou might Ling forward.
Mr. Lurnoy contended that the estimate of the revenues of the Irish Church had been greatly exaggerated, and that they did not fur- nish an income of more than 30S/. a year on the average to each offici-
Mr. WARD replied very briefly ; the House having, for some til before he rose, manifested much impatience for the division. In • to an observation of Lord Althorp, he reminded the House, that lie had brought forward his facts and argutnents on the previous Tuesday; he had then made out his case, which certainly had not been dispriwt7d. The accuracy of his statements had not been impugned either by Sir Ito'tert Peel, Mr. Stanley, or Mr. Spring Rice, the three gentlemen suppsed to be best acquainted with the subject of all who bad spoken
lie, however, hatl rested his statement upon docaments accessible to every body I • bad rested it upon a statement made by Lool Althorp and confirmed by returns !Lease. This was a int respect to two•thiuts or the parishes • and for the :SW pares cf a Irish there was no ret he had titbits' otiedburth ; and'for S5,000 Irish :ler, glvbe land, %Melt were equal to 130.000 English acres, he hall allowed 30s. an Upon these groan Is he had made his calculation. He had yet to learn that he lout been guilty of any inaccuracy. Ile mach rrgretted that 1.0111. Althorp bad not seen lit to combine the issuing of his commission with some positive assertiou the praissile he was anxious to have adopted by the 'louse. Ile was sorry to cause a divisitta be. tueen Cat friends of liberal principles, or any thine weal ing the appearance of a disiSi53: but as the principle which he bad advocated had 'been ao very strongly coutroverted bY Mr. Stanley and Sir Robert Peel, he felt t kat he would be hardly justified befere the house and the country in not pressing the question to a vote. The House then divided : for Mr. WARD'S motion, 120; for the preyious question, 396; Ministerial and Conservative majority, 276. 2. MINISTERIAL EXPLANATIONS ; THE ROYAL COMMISSION.
Lost night, when the order of the day was on the point of being read in the House of Peers, the Duke of NirovessTt.s said, thot h
isles! to learn from Earl Goiy upon what principles his new Ad ministration was formed, if it was formed at all ; for if it were actually formed, it was upon principles subversive of the Established Church. There %'as a great diserepaney between those principles and the speech of the Kitig to the Bisloys ; and he Ivished to know whether Minis- ters ietentled to violate the conscience of the King?
Pere Earl Fazes firs called the Duke to order ; sod some con- vereltion ensued, which ended in the Ihtke of Newe sT I. I: again asking Earl Grey whether :Ministers intended to coerce the Royal conscience, musl compel the King to forswear himself ?
Earl GREY said the question was most extraordinary. Such a ques- tion ne e hi fore entered into the mind of man to put. If any mem- ber of the present or any other Administration could attempt to coerve I Ii I topti conscience, his rope. it:on wattid of course be rejected with imhettation and seorn. As to the speech to the Bishops which had hese referred to, Earl Grey said that Alinisters had not advised it, were not responsible for it, and dl not know on what authority the rsport of it rested. If the Duke of Neweastle really believed what he said, it %Vas his bounden duty to melba& a motion for an address to the King for the removal of Mini-ters.
The order of the d;y %%a, read; and the Earl of We's trer rose to ne,ve for a copy of the Royal Commission lately issued to inquire ht,) the state of the Irish Chureh, gm. Ile wished to know whether Ali- ni-mers were determined to follow up the report of the i'omatissioners by alienating the property of the Irish Church, and bestowing it upon Roman Catholics. Lord Althorp had said that 31inisters, by issuing the Commission, were doing their best to carry the principle of Mr. 1Vard's Resolution into effect. He called upon :Ministers, partietilamly Earl Grey and the Marquis of Lansdowne, to state whether they agreed with Lord Althorp. He must have an answer; silence would be damnatory; sileime was cowardice.
it was matter of history - and he believed the historian of the times wiettil not ff to mark it-that Ihe dawn of I:erl Grey's IoIit k.,Ieateer wa: in themhtst ol th,. semii.ation of French Jacutfittieal principles over the world, Ink that its setting would be the donor:it of the Church of England. ("Hear, hear !")
He sincerely hoped that the House would hear different sentiments from Ministers in this House from those expressed by their colleagues in the other.
H.• how(' that at leasrIlwir Lordships would lot the people of this country know that if th, t t tII 03:e COMIIIMIS ClatmirollS fur the sanctioning of measores of the kind 110W Flop: S.A. villa tiovernment ready to pander to the passions of mital. Ts, there was All in their latabit'ps' House a body willing to snivel them, ant eapahie of doars so. (Much elmr., h&j.) He turned with confidence to the NI.triptis of la:ts- emwor•. WII0 im,i,I At% al, 14111 trusted by the country. Ile was not Olio Of th•••,•
St.l •••,11ell %VIM, itl tc freer, reminded one of the sca•weeds cast up from the Imtban,
to float Mr a time on • lie oir free a the thiml, ready to sink 10 their original position as roma as I he agitation of the waters sheuld ',offside. (1.asilift r.) Earl GREY replied. It was nut his usual course to shelter himself beneath a cowardly silence, and he voted not do so on the present oe- casion. In the first place, he wuuld say that there was no ohjection whatever to gramit a copy of time Commission. It had been freely eke!' to the House of Commons, and would be to their Lordships. After the speech of Lord 1Vick1ow, he must tell him, as he had told the Duke of Newcastle, that his duty would not conclude with that since!), but he must take one of three courmes- - If the Corno,i,ion sh.onlol r ore to! loe such as he has described it and issued toal I he motives t, Lich ItSlipposeS, her propose a vote of celpillre Up011 us It Ito advised the issuing or it, or muov. tom affilre,s to his :Majesty to revoke the Coin. nois.ion ; or he must move an atttlICS:: praying his Majesty at at to dismiss the nistei s who have been guilty of the inexpial de clime of advising him to issue a Com. mission which is founded on principles of injustice :mil spoliation. and is calculated to set Ireland in a dame. It is the dui y of I he noble Lail, awl those who take the same view of the matter that he does, nut to to Intent themselves with lucre dedamation, but to :tdopt practical Measure:4 alitl to 110 "A hat iii tlwm his to show the (amity the great danger which would be inorred by soffering the Government to continue in the lain Is of those who at present administer it. I say there is nu shrinking from this course." ("Hear, lute!
He denied that the principle on which the Commission was founded was seizure of the property of the Church.
s The Commission is issued with a view to the regulation-with a view, if 3 vu a ill to a (sir rent appropriation of the revenues of II c Church. C- Hear! in the sition.) The rights of the present possessors I will hold saercil; but I maintain that the property or the Church a s011jeCt for the evereise of the tliner,tion of Parr:taw, t, will ifini3 avow my opinions with respect to the propel ty of the Chu • It in lieland. I think, that it .1 considerable excess of revenue should remain Ivy. tat W. at is required to Saio;:t;:: the elliciehey cf the Chineh. awl those other purfs,es iI as Sir Itcbert reel says, with the interests of true religion --• I avow the c■ple that the State has a ris.flit to deal with that surplus, with a view to the exig Ci S om- the state semi i geiteral interests of the country." (Loud eheerind front the Onr,,Pion.) tie went on to eseemnd, that :Ministers had taken the only prudent course, when it appeared that 416 Members of the House of Commons were erepared to address the King to act upon the principle on which the Commission Ivas issued. With re7spect to the charge of having legun life with the disst mination of Jacoldimical principles, and being about to conclude it hy t fleeting the due nfal of the Church, he said- " I Imre the noble E it Is prophecy may prove as false as his facts. In early life I certainly I oh up with all ti o ti•rvette or youth the greilt (IIICStioll of Parliamentary Ref win ; which, in my latter da3s, I have brought ta a successful tem:la:Ohm. (Cheers.)
He deuied that he was attached to oilice. Ile appealed to his col- leagues to say if that were the fact.
nut be sate to 3151.1. (Cies via].) Ills toble friend s id that it was ttut Slit ro) r it Ile knew that it was in difficult times often very difficult to re, I. (Load cries of lit r, hear 1") But if they were to net on that principle, they would rest on nothing-0u y would still go on, to rest now here.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that Earl Grey appeared to have lids- understood the meaning of Sir Robert Peel's speech ; and he read some passages, to show that Sir Robert was in favour of an improved distribution merely of the Irish Church revenues among the clergy of that Church.
The Earl of Esnox, in a very feeble voice, said, that
age anol infirmities mei tutted hint front debating this question ; but he, would leave this as a legacy to their Lordships -staking whatever he hail of professiontl repot:01ml to its accuraey- that the State had mot the right to appropriate the revenues ot tho• Church.
The Duke of IlienstoNn gave the same reason for resigning office that Lord Ripon had declared.
The Archbishop of CA N'IER BURY expressed his regret at the espies natisn Of Earl Grey.
T,Asing the ileclarati••1114. the route earl with respect to the principle of the appro.. prialiim of the revenues id the Church to any of the partro.es of the State that they might think fit, and eottilli ll i l ig t kit a ith the appointment of the Commission- -an in- tention which he this )h was mowed by the noble earl-he must say, that lIe saw nothing before hint but the subveis:on of the Irish Protestant Church.
The Earl of IVINeirtsses would have to reproaelt himself with treachery to his country, if he did not raise his voice against the mea- sure of spoliation and ruin Nvitieli Earl Grey admitted that he con-
templated with regard to the Church of' Ireland. Ile called upon all the friends of religion to rally round the Church.
The Bishop of LONDON said A net duly weighing, the terms of the Commission afh`r ttiVing it all the attention it was in his power 10 bes!c.w, lie cou'ol not See Uliy it had been issued, the view of alieintlim.: the property of the Clitireh. (Loud c'teers 1-rt,,,a the tippoeithit lienchri.) The principle recognizifil was such as must lead to the overthrow of the Church. It was so bail in every respect, that he could nut have satisfied his cons:deuce ir he had not opeilly stated his opposition to it. The Earls of Ilsitcwoon and Isrmimates condemned, and the Mar- quis of Cr ANILICARDE detilided the issuing of the Commission.
The Bishop of EXETER denounced the principle on which Earl Grey acted—that Legidstors should be prepared to act up to the spirit of the times, lie solemnly warned the [louse against meddling with that property which Charles the Second had given to the Church, in testi- mony of his gratitude to Ahnighty God for having restored him to the throse of these realms. Therefore it was that he endowed the Chun+, as well as his followers. " These last endowments," continued Dr. Phillpots, " he placed upon the altars of the King of Kings. Touch them if you %%ill—unmet' them if you dare; and may God not visit upon you his curse for the sacrilege." lied he been called upon to advise his Majesty as to the answer he should give to an address from the Commons praying him to issue this Commission, he should have said- " Your Majest y is wit new called upon to a:sent to on act passed by the two Tronses of Parliament, aml %Odell will become the law of the land on yin's giving it tofu as- sent, in 3, iii legislative capaeTty ; loot yott are applied to, ill you; excentive capacity, alxelt w:oich the otoost coti.truers of oaths hare rimer yet raised the sha iow of it shade or doubt, to It that which is in direct -Hat ion of your oath. 'ho t be plain mean- ing of that oath your Mitjesty is Mould to your God to adhere; and :it whatever liazard„ eVeti 10 your throw% ou must remember what 301 owe to your I kel." (Cheers.) The Earl of Itmosoa remarked upon the strange mixture of eccle- siastical and political denunciation contained in the Bishop of Exeter's speech—his continual appeals to God, and his dealing out God's curses upon the House and the Government. Lord Radnor maintained, that for the benefit of the country, not only the property of the Church, but that of individuals might be taken.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that the object of the Commis- sion was immiry.
l'he surplus tevielltes of the Church, if any stud' there proved to be, after ample provision was made Mr its necessary support, should certainly be tipplied to charitable awl it oral purposes, but by tio IlleatiS diverted to any other purpose riusic was no intellti011 to eouti:eate or alienate, or at all to apply any surplus which may be found to exist in ally a ay not analogous to the institution.
The Duke of Wsesescerose in a brief speech, delivered in a low tone, reprobated time conduct of Government in this matter.
Lord Btrovoirsm said, the Bishop of Exeter had infused new vigour into the lagging spirit of the debate.
With a degree of good taste and sound judgment. which waS. indeed. not without example in that llott.e, a venerable Prelate had supplied IICW impulse to the lagging debate ; and though, of course, shiver:1y religious in his intentions, he had made seater too free and lavish a is of the name of the Supreme Being, and dealt oat implecations a hick called up others, who, instead of rendering the sill Jilt more lucid, had affiled to the chutet of errors which Inul been raised firound it.
The Commission was abused by those who had not seen it, and would not know its contents till time next day.
Noble lords may be wise, but they were not prescient. They were eireumsmvt in the things around them, and it may be-but with a large exception-knowitr• iii tint past ; lout it was ittifornmately the lot of humanity that not even the wisest could look into rot twit y :tint lint il the morrow, ill futurit3 the substance of the Commission must (lesniktcr.) What, titer-crime, was to become of all the diseusion which load been iaiseot upon that which was unkmown?
Much :useful information would be derived from the labours of the Corniniss:mers. With regard to the surplus, if surplus there should be,
He tho.:_*ot that it should be appropriated almost, if not altogether exclusively. fit moral sod is education of joersOlIS in the principles of the Established I 7hurch. (" Mut'. I.:,1r !") Icor as to the Roman (%Itholic Chinch having any part of the fowl -even I ie Fraction of a farthing-he was its wholly opp.sed to any such fatal notion fis any notot.., lord 011 the Oppositiull of the House could pc,sibly be„ The Duke of CUMBERLAND took consolation from the assurance that the Roman Catholics wcre to derive no benefit from the funds of time Church.
Lori Wicklow's motion was then agreed to ; and :the House ad- journed at twelve o'clock.
3. NATIONAL EntmsetoN.
A motion by Mr. Rossres, for a Select Committee " ta inquire into the means of establishing a system of National Education '' was debated in It thin House on Tuesday. The motion was supported by Sir W. .1loseswoment, and opposed by _Mr. Conurre. Lord Mort- PETII proposed as an amendment, that a Committee should be appointed to inquire into the beneficial effects of the late grants of 40,e00/. for the building of school-houses, and into the state of the education of the poor in England and 1Vales. After some discussion,—in which Lord AsTitormr, Mr. A BERCROM BY, and Mr. POULETT THOMSON, took part, —it was filmIly determined, on the motion of H Lord ALTORP, to aappoilit a Select Committee, " to ioquire into the state of the educa. Lon .•. the ren,li. 1..logland and ',v ;des, and Litt) the applieution and effeet of the grata made last session fur the erection of school-houses, and to coosider the expedielley of further grants in aid of educutIon."
The discussion %vas, on the %vhole. a dry and uninteresting one, though partially enlivened by the spiyell of Mr. COdItEl'T ; who dreaded the eonsequences of educating the poor.
on Hie subject or oaue,ai.al in ink %v., no phi:0,4,1,14y or reasoning that c,A1141 guide. but teen me on .flit rather to he i..al to e:.pari. nee. Every body knew that
within the last thirty-live years Lam:ant:IL:. o, t. -r •.ii:nalls had been tomehst. and
education bad inereased twenty-16W ; bat e..p.., siaut el that the morals or the people had mit mended wiilt the int:Yea-I. n, •■!1:O....S.O. it had elan] twell admitted
that night that latter years; so that
eduesii01111itt not titan pre, aot 1.1.• r il. that iii I his hielVa60 of eb,..at oti had not pr ,• of ,■,). ; Vvnturvd Ii, Sily, that tilt:re 11.0: IVA conntry g not say that I hi. lathers or the kot geeerat in 'men, hotel. latoo,,rerS, het■er SMN:alttS, al111,:e11,1 la, It (holt their suns uf III.' present generation. Crimes had rapidly ilwrea-vil with the spread or ,,,,.neatioa.
wow'. the same pe,:io I, mintier to .a hi •. - Oa to a most ;mall- lions extent ; so that in t! re-p et the a a. o;:y th.• iaaild not La said to have been advance,: II) I ietittittl ; am, Wit lb., V. II•l I.:. • .11! :Il'• till enjoyment It the same time.. (1.01e1:,mghter.) I goill and not a gabbling people, that wis wanted in roam aI- j ,ia: let • !neat:oil woold ooly raise the lataiiiieis above the situathai l• •o. . us,•ir II :rtittOSIA :Mil !lilt, oh their It would put into tleiir t!cit not horn to I Omar, lin; to het their living without it. Ily the 1.1:i II ,Ir ol 1.1 fx,r for Bath, OW 4•Ititit of the labour.-r eotilil not roliplete Ins •• !., w..e. at least fifteen or sixteen yea' s of age; led in the Mean 11111.• • ••loollii •_•',1.1 to htat
who was to keep a great eating. led drinking, anti guzzling oy --who \,.L, find him with provender all that time ? ‘1. ho was to satisfy his ho while his totelieets were being ? Mr. Ituelmek had said, t fiat the labourer's boy was to receive iustruetimi
after the day's Litmaur was over; but if that Member hut, -us- any thing of labour, he wool I rathar prefer going to Steer. Iiishoit, it all %% ere tO Ito scholars, it would ba necessary For the a hole population to shut up their mouths awl determine to eat uo more.
Lord A LTHORP remarked, that this speech of Mr. Cubbett was di- rected against bad, not good education ; the beneficial effect of a Well, on all classes, it was folly to doubt.
4. POOR LAWS AMENDMENT MEL.
Eleven clauses (from thelst to the rk1d inclusive) were agreed to in Committee last night, without any amendment of consequcnee. Mr. T. Arrw000 enlivened an extremely dry discussion, by the following remarks in ridicule of the bill, which he professed to dislike from Lc- ginning to cod. Tho bin pretended to be founded on nine folio volumes of evidenee,--as if any Mai- vianst had ever read the whole of that evidence! M. It)-. if the youngest man in that Mouse were to sit down to the perusal of those nine volumes. he could scarcely get Hirt ugh them by the close of his life. It reminded him of the story or a man in the West Indies, alio. in order to employ Itht nt•gro slate, told tam to ColltIt the pebble. stones in the courtyaul. In a fel% MitillteS the slave came awl told him that there wore twenty-one million and nine loinared thousand iriit.ku, " Why, you rascal." said the ntaster. " how could you have counted them in SO short a time?" " 0 ye,„ I have, Massa." replied the negro; " and ir you .1.1111 believe me, eount them yourself, and sit., if I am not right." (Laud/der.) So it %as with these nine folio VOIIIII.VS ill tVidellee ; the authors or the bill boldly asserted that it stun 10111111M on those %U11:1110S,Wl.11 knowing that mituuly would or could read the volumes to itscertain the fact. The a lade bill, 111111er the pretence or oomdiog ,00.utioo or the poor, went to phut& r the team and enslave the rich. Ile never it beard talt Of I ht 1100Se that the l'uordaws wen: .1 grievance- -not bo. tftiVitttl..) Very pro y to, It tovhfer.) hy dai 1. -y not loon; forward the pet itiolis 1,..,-1,1,. !...tt utere a glitO:.ltO,.•? TlItt all 1,1111. 1.,..11 Si 5.1'y ■!.II ----------- • bill of Mt) to re! p, ItitthiO,fh 01.104 t!..111 So ..! •:•. a !Oar. 1.. tIe
begged Lord 5.. ;L.
to r. Diet, • •
- •,•f.' tOttoh,•ad: a • Idol to retii,• - i• , the 5. LABOUR ATE BILL.
The second I.( riling of this bill was moved on Wealuesilv, by Sir CHARLES BURRELL. It was supported by Mr. 1.1;i:eir, 3ft'.
corr., Mr. H. l'alanot, Mr. Ilarcoma, Mr. Ilooca:s, Mr. 1 s.reortier, and others. Mr. Inviour moved that it be read a second time that day six months. Mr. Wanseirros: seconded the amendment ; aild the bill Was also opposed by Mr. SLA SLY, Mr. SCROPE, Mr. lianisa.., Lord A Taal OR P, 1111(1 Lord PA LIM E it sT0.1.
It was urged by the supporters of the measure, that it had been tried and found to work well ; that great reductions in the amount of poor- rates had followed its adoption ; that it was not a compulsory measure; that even admitting the principle on which it was founded to be incor- rect, still it would be wise to try it, merely as a matter of experiment, for One yeae. On the other band, it was contended, that the bill was founded on very limited experience; that the only pari,lies in which its provis;ons would be tolerable were purely agricultural ones ; that it went upon the vicious principle of taxing certain per-clis for the sup- port of more labourers than they required; that it shifted the burden of the poor-rates from those who ought to those who ought not to pay then] ; and, filially, that while the whole system of poor-laws Wam Un- dergoing the process of reform, it was most unwise to tamper with a portion of it. These arguments prevailed; and the amendment was carried by 80 to 36. So the bill is lost.
6. PREVENTION OF DornoersisEss.
Mr. BUCKINGDANI moved, on Tuesday, for a Select Committee, " to inquire into the extent, causes, and consequelice.: of the vice of drunke!mess among the labouring classes of the United Kingdom, in order to ascertain whether any legislative measures can be devised for preventing the further spread of so great a national evi;." He stated
several facts which went prove the great increase ef intemperance it) the United Kingdom. On one Monday, 5024 men, women and children had been seen to enter a gin-shop in Holborn. In Edinburgh, the number of gin-shops was in the propoi don of one to every fifteen families; and in the Irish province of Ulster, there were eightsen, twenty, nay thirty spirit-shops for one for the sale of bread. He esti- mated the loss of labour which the vice of intemperance annually oc- casioned at fifteen millions. He proposed the following immediate remedies.
ire awed p ohibit masters front prying their labourers their wages in any phtee where halvah-id:kg litmois were solo ; and would rovide that the labourers should re- ceive their wages. 101 no the sa utility night, but on the Saturday or Friday morning. Ile %t old.' poled! no nea spit it•st op to be set up, nor the licence of any old spirit-shop to he ren. a ti, tub iss ha WY; t•S \ WAS ft.:allied by a relpitsit• signed by a CV'! tail! nim,:wr of hoirehoh.ers Ile wiaild also reix,minend that all shops alien, :pit a, acre. sold should be ,'Ui IIJI.-himib te shot tip during the wind*. of the sabbatholay ; and t ha on all tubber days ot the week the3 dhUtth1 not be allowed to continue °Len longer than beer shops. He thought, tem that measures might be taken to prevent the frequenters of spirit.shopi remaining loin; ou tin' premises.
Ilis prospective remedies were the reduction of the duties on tea, malt, and French wines, and the diffusion of education.
Sir GEORGE S1RICKLAND seconded the motion.
Lord A LTHORP opposed it. He did not see any utility in appointing a Committee. Ile did nut think that the diffusion of education would entirely stop drunkenness ; though if Government wera to employ gen. demo' to travel about the country and lecture en drunkenness, he doubted not that many honourable gentlemen would be found competent to the task.
Mr. COBBETT hinted that he was competelit.
"I hog leave to tell the House. that I have writtea twelt e sernams, atia one of them loon drunkolowss. 'Ii it) I not hope that the noble iii us II. t lui k it worth his a bile to put an end at 01100 to this vice, which lie so notch abliurs, by spreading 1,000.0ne or 2,000,000 of that sermon abroad at the public exp,ase? " (ehettS and twat (Guilder.)
Mr. Watruricros: was of opinium that the only effectual mode of preventing drunkenness was by extending to persons of moderate means the same motives for abandoning the prriedee as halm:need those of a higher station.
Make ilruultenut•ss disgraceful in the eyes of the people ; cireulate cheap publiea. Hens against the vice ; encourage education ; and rander it honourable to iit,stain man liuliju ,. of intemperance by gradually affecting public opinion on the subject ; these were the proper means of putting an end to drinikenne,s.
Mr. Bociemortast persisted in his motion. It was carried on a din. sion, by 64 to 17; and the Committee was appointed.
7. COUNSEL FOR PRISONERS.
The bill for allowing counsel to address the Jury on behalf of Kis SOners accused of felony, was read a second time on Wednesday, on the motion of Mr. EWART ; who delivered a speech in favour of the measure, which, owing to the noise in the House, was but imperfectly heard. He said that the Judge, who was usually called the prisoner's counsel, must lose his character of impartiality before that could be the case. He objected to the proposal of refusing the assistance of counsel both to the prosecutor and the prisoner, because a statement of the arguments on both sides was useful to the Jury in forming a correct judgment. He approved of the Scottish practice of allowing the evi- dence on both sides to be given previously to speeches from counsel, the prisoner's advocate being last heard. As to the objection that too much time would be consumed if this practice were adopted, he was certain that to obtain the ends of justice that time would be well spent.
Mr. lloa. and Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND spoke briefly in support of the bill.
Mr. POLI.TER said, that nothing could be more favourable to the prisoner, than the present mode of administerhig the Criminal Law. Ile objected to the bill, and moved that it be read a second time that day six months.
Sergeant SPASM: seconded the amendment.
IL. feared that if counsel were allotted to address the Jury CO behalf of pi isow•rs, a eottet of justice would lw converted into :or arena for the display of the tale: Is or the respeetiveadveeatcs, aud that the interests or die primmer monad sutrer ti, colir,iiriencs. The Judges always acted impel Daily 1)0..112011 the public and the pi i,oner. Lord Armoire approved of the principle of the measure, though he thought that several of its provisions required tilte, ii jolt.
T:1 • arziamoit %%Weit was employt-ii ug.miicul Mow in,: counsel to .5:1 hiss the Omit in ..f. ny, would apply a ilk (Imo per:M:11 p....... i.e in
lit,' cour-t' or hi,: eNp..5:ow.v. he ••1!•:,■ he.ol ti tiueil at - •• ■., .1 ,p..c •hi a to, It w ;is Mmied
emitt,el to Conit uI tep y. It apt.eareit t.. hint tiatt :La pe:ilt ar ii. consideration of the House was uot so ii,ill Ii talon was ler the M.
terest tI tha prisotwr, as a hat was fur the interest of truth. if it simohi iLiaight I hat t he interests of truth were best consulted by allot, Mg the comisel on one side to put ;t11 the strong points against the primmer in as striking a t_oitit of view as yossible, :mil at the same time denying the prisoner the privilege a has log a counsel to speak in his defenee, let the present system vont intw ; but if a iliff.retti opinion should pre- vail. then let that sy-stem be changed, by allowing counsel on both sides to speak. In ca ,s hich depended ulani circumstantial evidence, it was parliculatly necessary for the ends of justice that the counsel for prisoners should be allot& ell to address the Jury Mr. O'CONNELL said, that Lord Althorp laid condensed a great deal of sound sense and practical wisdom into a very small compass.
ire could assure the House, that the want or the power, on the part of barristers, 10 address Juries ou behalf of prisoners accused of felony, was telt as a gieat grievance in Ireland, where counsel employed for the Crown were in the habit of making inflamed statements to Juries. Ile had known an Attorney-General at a Special Commission saying to the Jury, " This Commission is issued fur your protection; show that sox %vat protect youiselves,"—that was to say, haug the prisoner. As an illustration of the injustive which might be perpetrated under the present system, Mr. O'Connell then gave the following account of an occurrence in Ireland. His tone, language, and manner of relating it, are staid in the Times report of the debate to have been exceedingly impressive, and to have caused unusual sensation in the House.
" Every one must recollect the dreadful murder of Mr. Franks and his rprairy in Ireland. A female servant a-as the only person in the house who escaped from the bloody massacre, A great number of persons 55 CF(' apprehended on suspicion of the erime. The servant was taken to see them in gaol, in order that she mi;;ht recognize the criminals if they were amongst them. She passed by several of these men ; but slw identified six as having been present at the murders; awl they were tried, and on her evidence convicted and executed. For some reaSOD or other, tlw authorities of the place suspected that three of the men whom the woman had passed by aere coiwerned iu the murders ; and they accordingly took her to the prison again, and she again de- e:hired that she recognized no petson amongst those in confinement alto was present at Ilia scene of blush. This was not enough; she was shown the three men by themselves, and she then declared that they hail not larticipated in the crime. They were libe- rated. About six months alterwards, this woman thought proper to change her mind, aml she swore that the three non were present at the murder of her master and his family. They were apprehended and brought to trial. I defended lhein, I clicind the facts which I have stated. from the servant ; mill I left the Court with the convic- tion that the prisoners would be acquitted. However, the Judge—one ot those imp:titlel personages, but no more of that—the Judge summed till the evidence against the pri- soners, and the Jury found them guilty. I bad been absent from the Court hitt a short time, when I heard one of those terrible screams Whiell are familiar to those who have attended an assize in Ireland. I threw up the window of my ludgings,aud I saw beneath the three condemned brothers enclosed in a square of soldiers. Their wretched mother rushed towards the military, and would have been pierced by their bayonets, but that t he oflicer humanely ordered them to open a passage for her. She clasped the neck of her eldest sou, a young wan about twenty-tao years or age; she embraced his younger brother ; but before she could reach her youngest luty, who was only eighteen, she fell senseless on the pavement. The blood gitshed 'rem her face—I coulti see no more; but the recollection of that scene a ill never be efilieed from my mind—from my soul l Those men wore noiraeost—muntered by the deleet of your lass ; Ibr if I had been al- lotted to address the Jury, it avoid have been impossible for them to have returned it vi hurt of guilty. Why do I say so ? shortly anent anis, the servant itemised two other num of having been concerned hi the murder, mid they were lattup,lit to trial ; hut Mr. Baron Pennefather addressed the Jury pioperly,and they were instantly acquitted.' Mr. Pou.ocx spoke in favour of the bill. And after a few words from Mr. EWART in reply, the amendment was withdrawn, and the bill was read a second time.
8. RECIPROCITY SYSTEM.
A long discussion took place on Thursday, on the motion of Mr. G. F. YouNo, to repeal the Reciprocity Act. Mr. Young laboured to prove that the distress of the Shipping interest was owing to the system established, and in too many instances acted upon, by Mr. Huskisson and his successors at the Board of Trade. He contended that it was impossible that British shipowners could compete with foreigners, un- less they were relieved from the burdens which pressed upon them, and from which their rivals were exempt. Every other manufacture was amply protected ; but almost all the articles used in building and fitting out vessels were enormously taxed. In common fairness, the ship. owners ought to be allowed to import their implements of trade, their ships, ready-made and duty-free. The expectatiols on which the Reciprocity Act was passed had been grievously disappointed ; for foreign nations had refused to admit our vessels on the same terms that we admitted theirs ; and the consequence was, that in Prussia, France, America, and other countries, the tonnage was increasing while the British was on the decline. The French Government acted upon sounder principles than our own, as was proved by the report of the Commission lately published. True it was, thht the amount of tonnage entered inwards in our ports had been increasing: but the question as regarded Englishmen was, how much of that increase was in British vessels? It would he found that it arose from the larger number of foreign vessels that now found admission to our ports, to the loss and detriment of the most important interests in the kingdom. Mr. Young concluded a speech full of details and quotations from official and other documents, by calling upon the House to be consistent ; and, if they were determined to persevere in the present system, at least to place the British shipowner on a footing with foreigners, by repealing the duties on those articles which were necessary in carrying on his business.
Mr. Alderman Tuomesost, Mr. INGHAM, Lord SANDON' Mr. Roe BINSON, and Mr. AARON CHAPMAN supported the motion. It was op- posed by Mr. POULETT THOMSON ; who explained that the Recipro- city Act allowed the Crown the power of imposing certain duties on vessels belonging to foreign nations not acting in reciprocity with this country, while it gave the Crown the power of removing rates and charges imposed on foreign goods and ships, who did act in reciprocity with this country. He contended that very good effects had already flowed, and might be expected to flow in a greater degree, from the exercise of this power ; to put a stop to which was the object of the motion. Mr. Thomson then went on to point out the absurdity of supposing that we could engross the whole trade of the world in time of peace. It was to be expected that other nations would retaliate, by the imposition of countervailing-duties; and if the system of the re- strictionists were fully acted upon, there would be no foreign corm merce at all. He contended that British shipowners were able to compete with foreigners on equal terms in most parts of the world ; and referred to certain returns connected with the Baltic trade, from which it appeared that nearly half the tonnage employed was British ; and this was a trade between neutral ports, where the duties were equal upon the shipping of all countries. Ile exposed the enormous incon- sistency of men who complained of the expense of building vessels, while they absolutely refused to repeal the tnnber-duties, and insisted Upon building their vessels with the dear and bad timber of Canada, instead of the cheap and durable timber of Norway. He also reminded the House, that foreigners were excluded from the coasting and
Colonial trades. In the former, ten millions of tonnage were entered inwards annually. And yet the shipewners contended that they had no protection or exclusive pi ivileges.
Mr. HUTT, Dr. LUSHINGTON, and Mr. HUME, spoke earnestly on the same side. Mr. Herr especially referred to some evidence given before the Committee on Commerce and Manufactures, in proof of the fact that ships built now might be profitably employed.
The House divided; and Mr. Young's motion was rejected, by 117 to 52.
9. MISCELLANEOUS SUBJECTS.
HOUSE TAX REPEAL BILL. On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, this bill was read a third time in the House of Commons on Monday; and passed.
RELIEF OF THE POLES. Lord DUDLEY STUART moved, on Tuesday, that an address should be presented to the King, praying him to grant some pecuniary assistance to the Poles. Lord ALTHORP said, that Government was disposed to concur in a grant of the public money fir that purpose, on the understanding that those Poles only who were in this country at the present time should be allowed to participate in it. Mr. C. FERGUSSON and Mr. HUME expressed their approbation of the
• conduct of Ministers on this subject; and the motion was agreed to.
STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA. A Committee to inquire into the best means of promoting communication with India by steam, was appointed on Tuesday OD the motion of Mr. CHARLES GRANT.
COMPENSATION TO MR. BUCKINGHAM. On the motion of Mr. HUME, a Select Committee was appointed, on Wednesday, "to take into consideration the circumstances connected with the suppression of the Calcutta Journal, in the year 18.23, and the loss of property entailed on Mr. Buckingham in consequence of that measure; and to report their opinion to the House, as to whether any and what amount of com- pensation ought to be awarded to Mr. Buckingham for his losses on
that account." •
REDUCTION OF THE MILITIA. On Wednesday, the Committee on the Militia Estimates were instructed, on the motion of Mr. HUME, "to inquire what alterations may be expedient in the establishments of the disembodied Militia, with a view to further reductions in the Esti- mates, and to report their opinion thereupon to the House."
LORD'S DAY BILL, No. 2. Mr. POULTER'S bill for the better ob• servance of the Lord's Day was committed pro fume on Wednesday, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Friday.
NEWFOUNDLAND FISIIERIES. A motion by Mr. ROBINSON, for the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown relative to the right of British subjects to fish on certain parts of the banks of Newfoundland, now ex- clusively occupied by the 1. rench, was withdrawn, after some discussion, on Thursday; as it appeared from the remarks of Mr. POULETT THOMSON, that the claims of the British were at least exceedingly dubious.
CIVIL OFFICES PENSION BILL. This bill was read a third time, and passed, on Tuesday; an alteration having been made to exempt those clerks who entered public offices previous to 1829 front its operation.
IMPRISON3IENT FOR DEBT. Sir JOHN CAMPBELL (AttOrlICy-Creller111)
gave notice, on Thursday, that be should on the 10th instant move for leave to bring in a bill to abolish Imprisonment for Debt, excepting in cases of fraud, and to amend the law of Debtor and Creditor.
KINGSCLERE ENCLOSURE BII.L. This bill was rejected, on Thurs.- day, by a majority of 50 to SO, on the ground that it interfered iniqui- tously with the rights of the poor commoners.
COMMUTATION OF TITHE. Sir ROBERT PEEL asked Lord Althorp, on Thursdey, whether lie would be prepared to proceed with his measure for the commutation of tithe this session ? lie feared thut there would be scarcely time to perfect a measure of such importance ; 10,44111e regretted the more, as, in ease of the failure of the plan of compulsory commutation, he wits prepared with one on the principle of voluntary commutation. Lord A LTHORP was (as usual) nearly in- audible in the Gallery; but was understood to say, that in the first place he should proceed with the Irish Tithe Bill, leaving out the clauses relating to redemption.
OFFICE OF POSTMASTER-GENERAL. Mr. WAI.I.ACE, at a late hour on Thursday night, moved an address praying his Majesty to place the Department of the Post-office under the management of a Commission ; but the House was counted out, on the motion of Mr. PEASE, before any vote could be taken.
New WRIT. Mr. CHARLES Woon moved on Tuesday, for a new writ for the borough of Cambridge, Mr. Spring Rice having ac- cepted the °dice of Colonial Secretary.
PLTITIONS AGAINST RETURNS. Petitions against the recent returns of Mr. Westenra for 'Monaghan, and Mr. Jacob for Dungarvan, have been received by the Speaker during the week.
/3usixess OF TIIE House or COM3IONS. The following Resolutions were reported on Wednesday by the Business Committee.
I. Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that with a view to promote the convenience of Membeis, and to facilitate the despatch of private business, it is ex- pedient that certain measures which, tinder the existing laws. must bo brought sepa- rately under the I.N,usideral kw of Parliament, should be provided for by general enact- ments, enabling parties interested therein to proceed to their accomplishment, without. having constant reference to the special sanction of the Leg islatitre. "2. Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that if possible a General Enc!osure Act should be passed, which may enable palties Laving au interest therein to enclose lands, subject to such provisions as may ,eettre the rights • if all coucerned. without subjecting themselvcs to the he t% y expensies will are 110W inetirred. 3. Resolved, 'that it is the opinion iir this C. Mffilit II,. that IRA% vrs, !initialing for paving, Macadamizing, watering, draining, midi otherwis:, hopow mg cities, tow II+, itntl places, should be ve.ted r,ttlider certain cottilitiens iiii juthe iohaliitants„
to lie carried into elfcct without the treessity of to Pailiament."
The Resolutions were read, and ordered to lie ou the table, and be printed.
Bri-iINESS or THE HOCSE OF Loans. The Earl of 1Viceraar complaiiied on Wednesday, that on the day previous the House had been unexpectedly adjoutned at lialf-past four, and that he had in eon- sequence been deprived of the opportunity of giving notice of a motion. It was an irregular proceeding: the House should sit till five, the usual hour. At any rate, notice should have been given from the woolsack of the intention to adjourn. Lord BitouoitA31 replied, that there was no business before the House, and therefore there was 110 use in sitting any longer. He had twice, in an audible voice, asked if any noble lord lied a petition to present, or a motion to make; but as Lord Wicklow was engaged in talking, he did not hear him. That, how- ever, was not his fault ; the Lord Chancellor was not bound to furnish noble lords with ears. Besides, he had offered to return to time wool- sack, after the adjournment, though that was irregular, in order to allow Lord Wicklow the opportunity of giving his notice. Lord WICKLOW said that would have been so informal that he could not permit it. He believed lie was right in saying that the House was informally adjourned, without any motion having been made to that effect.
Lord BROUGHAM rejoined_
lie was willing to bow to tlw noble Earl's superior knowledge. Ile would allow the noble E:trl to be as much superior to himself as the noble Earl thought he was. Tha noble Earl might assert his own superiority : but rmlly he should have some com- passion on him. The House was native to the noble Earl, and other famous wits; but to him, as our poet said, it was only hospitable. (Lmeghtirr.) It was only for a few 3-ears that lie had been admitted within its walls. Why, ti. noble Earl himself was about to lead him into error. The noble Earl cried out 0 3-es, you must come back ;" but a noble Baron, son of a late Chief Justice, very naturally, he might say constitutionally, took tire (haul/Ater), and objected to what he denounced as a breach of order.
AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL; QUADRUPLE TREATY. In reply to a ques- tion from Lord LONDONDERRY, on lirednesday, the Marquis of LANS- DOWNE said, that Don Miguel was safe on board a British man of war. And on Thursday, Earl Gam: stated, in answer to another question from the same nobleman, that the Quadruple Treaty had been ratified by the King, under protest, in consequence of an omission hi the pre- amble of that copy of the treaty which the Portuguese Government had ratified. The omission, however, was not very important, and he was convinced it was inadveitent. There was no article whatever in the treaty, as Lord Londonderry supposed, which precluded D011 Pedro from remaining more than a certain time at the head of affairs in Por- tugal.