113ebateit an Protraingsi in lantlitinunt.

I. THE MUNICIPAL REFORM BILL.

On Monday, a Committee of Conference was held between the Members of the two Houses of Parliament. on the subji ct of the amendments. The Earl of DevoN, on behalf of the Peers, delivered to the Members of the Commons a statement of the amendments of their Lordships on the amendments of the Commons, with their rea- sons for insisting on them. The Committee then broke up. Lord DEVON made the usual report to the Peers; and Lord JO1IN RUSSELL stated what had passed in the Co:endure to the Commons. Upon his Lordship's motion, a few of the amendments were read. and the Ma-m. hers were informed that they could procure printed copies of the whole of them, with the reasons, at the Vote-Office.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose to direct the attention of the House to the amendments. He began by referring to the conciliatory tone adopted by the Commons when discussing the amendments of the Lords; expressing his regret that their Lordships bad not returned the bill with merely slight alterations. Ile went on to describe the course taken by the Peers in dealing with the bill after it had been a second time sent up from the Commons; stating distinctly the nature and ex tent of the principal alterations made by the Peers and in every instance expressing his decided disapprobation of them. ire first mentioned ti e clause relating to the division of boroughs into wards by the Revising Barristers— He had proposed that the derision of the Revising Barrister should not be good until it was approved of by the Crown; and he hail stated to the Flouse, that if the Crown objected to the decision, it should be c pt-tent to the Crown to send it back ; and if the amended report was not approved of, to take such other steps as should seem proper to the King in Council. The House of Lords had thought it right, in cases of this nature, to inset t a proviso to remedy this inconvenience. He, however, thought that it should have beerl done in the way which he had proposed,—naniely. that the 13arrister sheuld make his report, arid if that report was not apploved of by the Crown, it should he sent hack to him ; and if, when again retui lied, it was not satisfactoly, then the King in Commit should have the power of making a different arratigement. But the House of Lords had made a provision which, coming unit did from a House of Parliameut peculiarly jealous of the prerogative of the Crown, he thought ml a timst extra- ordinary nature; for they had provided that in the first place the Revising Liar tinter should make his report, and if it wasnot approved of, nevertheless it should stand good for the tinie, and, not until his Majesty ado Uhl 11.01111 to another de- termination, hut " until his Majesty in Council shall definitively apptrive of the division of the boroughs into writ& in the manner bereiiiliefore inenti ttttt " (Load cheering and laughter.) He could not do otherwise than think this an insufficient and unwise amendment ; for the Bat tinter was to present his ra port, the King might reject it, and the decision was to stand good until the King in Council shall finally approve of the decision of that Revisiog Bat rister. (Much laughter.) So that the Barrister might go on making lain reports until they were approved of by the Crown, and the Cam n a mild he subordinate, the Revising Barrister absolute. Why, lie should have thought that a House of Parliament so tender of the preringative as the House of 1.1101:4 was known to be, would have been cautious in proposing such an lino ailment, which put the Crown in this situation—that the Clown might refuse to approve. hut the Revising Barrister might 1 ontinue to bold Ids old opinion, and It would Immune known that the King, with the advice of his Peivy Council, had refused to ratify a decision, which would, however, prevail. though made hy. a young and . inexperienced gentleman who might happen to he a Revisitig Barrister. When he used the words "yawing and inexpetienced," he only ii-cd language that was

. employed by the right honourable baronet the Member for Tainwoith, aho admitted that inexperienced gentlemen, such as Revising Barristers might fre- quently be, ought not to make a final award without the approbation of the

• Privy Council. He would rather have had the clause as it originally stood, since as it was now flamed it placed the Crown in a position not aluigether decor' us.

The next amendment referred to the mode of appointing Magis- trates— The Members of the Ministerial side of the House had alwayscontended, anal • in the last debate on the qiiistion it was dr elided by a bilge majority. that it Wel!, fit the Town-Council should have the right of noininatiog individuals for the commission of the peace. The Crown might .lisarpttive tit such persons, but the Itlagistiates were to he appointed out of a li-t fen nished by the Town

Council. He was of opini tttt that in that matinee the Croon might have • been, openly informed what persons were qualified to leceive the eta:Iola • on of the peace, and that having received their appoi tttttt nits through that • source, they would have acted in their several boroughs a ith far greater con- fidence on the part of the public than if they had been chosen a knout any ti-- commendation &rim a hoey popularly elven d; such as the Town- Comma. The

House of Lords bad stated, that if ri guard was had to the principles of the Con- stitution, the appointment of filagistrates might to be vested in the Crows'.

Now, whatever they might say of the principles of the Constitution, lie would

ask this question—were any of these Justices appointed by the Clown? There were many persons named by the charter of James the Fast who should be

Justices rif the Pi ace in corporate towns, but same that time the Corporations had gone on naming other Justices without reference to the Crown ; and it was the greatest extravagance to suppose, that because the miginal Justices in the time of James the Flist were homed by the Crown, that therefiire the Justices

of the present day had ili•iived their title constitutionally from the Crown. If that argument was good for any thii g, the techoical aigunirrit on which the

House Jelled would be as good ; for hese it wan enacted iat the King's Alieit -? Excellent Majesty, by and wiih the ails-ire and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Palliament assembled. that cm lain Justices

should be appointed in a particular manner, not Twining indeed the different persons, but so contrivilig it, that 110 iiidividuals utifit to hold the office should be appointed • so that the lights of the prerogative were as nail h ran-tilted and as strictly preserved hy this metlitat of appointing Justices as under the old system of char tees, while the dictates of expediency -Litre also atteaded to, He then came to the clause which regulated the number of wards into which boroughs were to be divided— The Lords, without going back to the -old bill as it originally stood, had made this amendment, that the division into wards was carried down to towns where there were only 6000 inhabitants, though the qualification was not raised higher than bad been proposed by the Commons. There was a division at a certain point, and the Lords went at once from 18,000 population and three wards with a Council of twenty-four members, to five wards with a Council of forty members. It was not necessary to point out the inconvenience of this mode of dividing, nor to advert to the arguments stated over and over again in opposition to the amendment now proposed by the Lords.

The question then arose, how they were to deal with these amend- ments? Lord John said, that he and his colleagues bad determined

with regard to the first clause.—relating to the Revising Barristers' decisions—that they would let the Lords have the indecorum entirely

to themselves, and would not meddle with it ; he could not suppose that it could have proceeded from the great legal party whom they had the satisfaction of seeing there the other night, but that it must have arisen from the carelessness and indiscretion of a Deputy Grand Master. (Loud cheers and laughter.) With respect to the second amendment, he saw no prospect of coming to any agreement with the Peers; and as to the third, having already reduced the numbers in towns to be divided into wards from 12,000 to 9000, they were not disposed to higgle about the odd thousand or two.

"We have to consider then (continued Lord John) whether, if we consent to these amendments as they stand, we should be justified in sending the bill back to the House of Lords, in order that it may be passed into a law of the land. I will first take the immediate question of those amendments to which I have already adverted at sufficient length, and consider how and in what respect they could be amended. As to the clause which gives the appointment of Justices absolutely and unconditionally to the King, I have no hesitation in saying, that as long as my colleagues and myself continue to be the advisers of the Crown, we shall feel it our duty, as the most natural and satisfactory mode of appointing these Justices, to request from the Town-Councils that they would send us a list of the names of persons in whom they think confidence ought to be placed. .( Cheers.) I have no hesitation also in saying, that I think this would be an exercise of the prerogative of the Crown fully justifiable, and in- deed rendered almost necessary, by the state in which the bill was originally sent from the House of Lords. It has happened to me, in the course of this very day, to have received a letter from a Lord-Lieutenant of a county, recom- mending a certain person to be placed in the commission of the peace : this Lord-Lieutenant is opposed in politics to the party to which I belong, but I have no doubt that he is fully justified in his recommendation, and I shall only do right in carrying it into effect. It is impossible that I should know locally the particular qualifications of individuals : but if I should be right in advising the exercise of the prerogative of the Crown in counties, at the instance and under the advice of a Lord-Lieutenant, there is no reason why it should be derogatory to the prerogative of the Crown to exercise it in the same way, after asking the opinion of a Town-Council. (Cheers.) Let it be remembered, that this does not depend upon any declaration of mine, because any abuse of

the prerogative of the Crown, of this kind as of other kinds, would come under the cognizance of the House of Commons; and if it found that any Minister

had introduced discord into a corporation by appointing .persons suspected or obnoxious, or who-were not disposed to administer justice impartially, after the bill had passed the Commons giving the power to the Town-Council, I think it would hardly be slow in noticing the abuse." With respect to the division into wards, there appeared to have bees something provisional in the contemplation of the Lords-

" They have, in the first place, recommended that the boundaries of several

boroughs should remain the same, although those boundaries in several instances are most inconvenient, and they leave it to Parliament on a future occasion to decide what the boundaries shall be. The Lords have given Revising Barristers the power of judging absolutely, for a time, as to wards; but it is not intended hereafter that their decree shall be without appeal. Therefore I say, that the question of boundaries and wards may in all probability come before Parlia- ment when the Boundary Act, which must be introduced, is brought forward. In another part of the bill, that which refers to the trustees of charities, their Lordships have confessedly and avowedly made a provisional arrangement, viz. that the present trustees shall remain till the month of August 1836, unless Par- liament in the mean time shall otherwise provide. That is a subject on which I did not express a difference before, and I will not express a difference now ; but the Lords think that a separate Act of Parliament will contain provisions in this respect. I think there are some other clauses in the bill which have beea left by the Lords in such a manner as to show that they do not suppose that this bill is to be a definitive settlement of the question respecting Municipal Cor- porations. Besides leaving, as we originally left, a great many boroughs out of the bill, they have added other boroughs which we proposed to omit, and with regard to which a question may probably arise whether they are municipal corporations. (Cheers from all sacks). 'Therefore, I apprehend I may say, that these are subjects not to be judged of very much at the present moment, but after this bill -shall have come into operation ; and I have no difficulty in saying that, considering how much the bill has been amended by different hands, and how much the original design has been departed from, it seems to me that it will be difficult for Parliament to go on for any considerable time without taking this subject again into consideration." (Cheers.)

The great question then was whether the Members of the House would be justified, in the performance of their duty to their consti- tuents, to take the bill as it stood ; whether it would be wise to attempt to get some of the good which had been lost back again, or whether they could not present it to the country as the foundation of a great improvement in municipal corporations?

" I have no hesitation in saying, that I consider it a great improvement. In the first place all those bodies, for the most part self-elected, with various dis- cordances and various privileges, are altogether put an end to. That system of appointing Justices, which the House of Lords declares to be an evil, is entirely

abolished ; and the fairest have a new edifice, not altogether and in every part of he

fairest proportion, but at least with a solid foundation, and resting on a good and wholesome basis. There is, then, the adoption for the future of tit: plr- stood almost alone, we might rest secure. But besides this, there is the the and with which, ciple of a wholesome system of municipal government ; intro- duction of a good system for the administration of justice in many t boroughs : there in the appointment of a Recorder, who must be a person versed out being connected with the law or acquainted with the object or due ad ministtrha-r ichthis. in the law, and well qualified to dispense justice, in place of the mode ni w adopted, under which Recorders are appointed by personal interest, wi tints of the various local statutes and acts for the regulation of the officers of h have towns to which they have been nominated. In another respect, I think wee .1. made a great improvement—I allude to the freemen ; because, although ty .!LLI It that they should preserve their rights of property (as thety have been styled), and although we preserve the right of 'QUI); for Members e Parliament, yet we do away with them as municipal electors—( Cheers)—they form no part of the system of municipal government ; or, if they enter into it at all, they mud, like the rest of the electors, depend for a qualification solely on the uniform right of the payment of rates. With respect to the boundaries of these boroughs, there are ninety-three of them in which the b militaries have been settled by the Commissioners appointed for the purpose k and great improvements have been thereby effected. 'There are, I think, various other improvements introduced by this measure; and one of the most important of these improvements, as well as one with which no party can find fault, and which must be equally acceptable to both irides of the House, is that a good Police will be established in those towns by means of a Watch Committee, appointed by this popular Council, to which they can refer in all cases where the quiet and security of the towns are in question. I think, then, that a measure containing such advantages, and containing in itself the germ of many other improvements—(Loud cheers)— enables me safely to say that this bill is the foundation of an improved system of government in our municipal towns. (Renewed cheers.) Amongst the objects to be effected and the foundations of improvement laid by this bill, I must say that I look to as one of its most beneficial results—the proper and just distribu- tion of charitable funds, under some body so circumstanced and appointed as to render the abuse of these funds to individual purposes impossible, and to secure their distribution according to the genuine intentions of those by whom they have been bequeathed. I say, then, that looking at this bill as a whole, although I do not say that I am altogether satisfied with it—although I say that I think pains have been taken, and unfortunately taken, to provide that this shall not be a final measure—( Cheers)—and that it Would be useless for me to make any declaration to that effect, because those who have framed these amendments seem to have taken special care that it should not be so considered,—I repeat, therefore, that viewing the question in this light, I think I am justified In re- commending to the House of Commons to put an end to the controversy which is at present carried on between the two Houses of Parliament with respect to these amendments; and to agree, by assenting to these amendments, that this hill shall become an act of Parliament." (Loud cheers.)

Lord John then adverted to the impediments in the way of making improvements in a mixed constitution. They could not at once, and by a decree, establish a reformed system of Municipal Government, as the King of Prussia had recently done ; and Lord John was always in favour of taking part when they could not get the whole, and of seizing every opportunity of making advances in the right way. He then al- luded to some of the measures of Reform which had this session been unavoidably postponed, but which must next session occupy the atten- tion of Parliament-

" We have no doubt left much undone that we proposed to do with regard to reforms; and not with reference to this bill merely, but with respect to a bill which ought naturally to follow it—I mean a bill with respect to the reform in Municipal Corporations in Ireland, which must necessarily be introduced in the course of the ensuing session of Parliament. ( Cheers.) There are various other subjects which imperatively call for our attention : such, for instance, as the effectual removal of the grievances of Dissenters, and that reform of the English Church which is required by the general admission and consent of all p.arties ; these, I repeat, are questions which must attract the serious considers. ton of the Legislature in another session of Parliament. I shall think it a great advantage, that instead of breaking off from the House of Lords on points which perhaps in six months or a year hence they may not deem of so much importance as they do now, that this subject should have been already consi- dered; and all the main principles on which a reform in municipal government was required having been already discussed, that we should be called on only to direct our attention to the remaining defects of the system, with a view to their removal by a full and efficient reform. I think that we shall thus take the best course for carrying into effect, so far as lies in our power, the pledge which my noble friend (Lord Spencer) gave at the close of the last session of Parliament. At that period, my noble friend declared that we should be ready at the com- mencement of the present session to introduce many measures of reform. Be- fore that time arrived, a change of Government took place ; and at the com- mencement of the session, we were told by the existing Government, ' that the reports of evidence had been laid before us, and that they should receive our due consideration ; ' but at the same time it had been conveyed by sundry hints and rumours, that a high authority had declared that the Commission appointed to inquire into Corporations was altogether illegal. (Loud cheers.) From that period, we have made this step—that we have introduced a great measure, which has met with the general consent of Parliament. That measure has been much altered ; and, maimed as it is in many parts, 1 think that when it is passed into a law we shall fulfil the wish which was expressed to the Throne on the first day of the session, namely, that we wished to see municipal corpora- tions subjected to vigilant popular control.' It only' remains for me now to move, that this House agree with the Lords in these amendments." (Loud cheering.)* Mr. HUME said that, at the opening of the session, the King bad declared in his Speech, that he relied "on the willing cooperation of the two Houses of Parliament" in removing just causes of corn plaint— Could the conduct of the Lords with respect to other measures besides that of the Municipal Corporations Bill—he meant most particularly that most im- portant one, the measure for the settlement of the Tithe quesiion—be for one moment considered as proof of compliance with that recommendation? The manner in which that measure had been disposed of, and the way-in which the

Municipal Reform Bill had been dealt with, at any rate showed this—that their Lordships took a most extraordinary course in meeting the wishes, or acting in

accordance with the feelings of the People. Was it not insufferable, that that

reform which was considered essential, and which that House had admitted to be necessary to the welfare of the People, should, except so far as it was granted by the mangled bill now before them, be refused by the other House of Parlia- ment ? Then came the question—what were they to do? The Members of that House were perfectly helpless; the People have no power over the other

House of Parliament. The only means by which the majority against the

People in that House could be diminished, was by an exercise of the prerogative of the Crown, which it did not appear likely would be carried into effect. Whilst he said this, he could not but reflect that this Ministry had had a most arduous task to perform. There could not, perhaps, be a better example of the difficulties which they had had to encounter, than that a noble lord, who was at the head of one of the most important branches of the military service of the coun-

try, the Horse Guards, withheld all support from that Government under which he acted, and to the members of which he communicated, Mr. Hume supposed, all the proceedings connected with the department. It was no wonder that the situation of Ministers should be embarrassing, when those who occupied the highest posts of authority under them, and who were dependent upon them, were foremost in opposition to them. When, therefore, they found the Prelates of the Church and the Peers united in one bond to resist the just demands of the People, it behoved not only the Members of that House but the People themselves and the highest individual in the country, to consider well what might be the result of a continued course of such proceedings.

* In point of diction, th:s is a very clumsy rep irt of Lord John Russell's speech ;

but we cannot obtaitio a better. Towards the via; of a long session, the reporters be. some less efficient, being woru out by fatigoth It was ire.!ets tiy fur the People to proclaim trim' one elm of the country to the other, that without a reform of the House of Lords, the reform of the Commons was of little value— All their labours, and efforts, and sacrifices in the year 1832, and subsequently, were cmipletely thrown away, if the acts of their Representatives were annulled by a Tory majority in the other House of Pat 'lament. ( Cheers.) Was it not monstrous that they in that House should labour almost incessantly night and day, with a view of carrying measures on which the peace of the country, the interest,' of the People, and the stability of the Throne depended, with no other result titan to have the bills which they carefully prepared quashed or rendered comparatively individuals? paratively useless by the decision of an irresponsible body of Whilst, then, he protested against the proceedings id the Lords, not only with respect to this bill, but with regard to the other bills which were. sent up to them, he felt bound to declare, that it became an imperatived.uty on his Mejesty a Ministers to be prepared. on the next assembling of Parliament, fur the pro- mulgation of some meals by which the two lunches of the Legislature might be rendered harmonious.

He was willing to take the bill on the understanding that a measure should be introduced into the House next session to amend a solemn and dietinct protest against the amendments introduced by the Lords, he agreed t r the reception of this bill ; and he w ta more inclined to take that comse, when he reflected that it introduced into the government of corpora- tions the two great principles of annual election and popular control. ( Cheers.) Thanking the Government for the measure which they bed ISO wisely and with

so just a sense of the true interests of the People originally into and

the principles of which they were bound to see ultim carried ately carrinto effect, he did not consider it wise that that House should, when they could not get all they required, abandon a measure containing those most iniportaot principles. When they called to mind, too, the sentiments so lately expressed in the second roam- festo at Tamworth, arid the hopes which he who issued it built on the divisions of thce,e entertaining Liberal opinions, was there a man in that House belonging tit that class, from the Ultra-Radical to the Moderate Whig, who was not per- suaded of the necessity of union in the present crisis ? (Loud cheers.) Mr. BLACKBURNE referred to the attacks which had been made on the legality of the Corporation Commission, and the conduct of the Com- missioners. He had abstained from defending himself and his brother Commissioners as long as he thought his interference would tend to stop the progress of the bill, but he would not suffer the session to close without repelling the calumnies to which they had been subjected— If the Cominiesinn were illegal, hew did it happen that, from November until March, when that Government was in office, the legal organ of which declared that it was illegal, and that all the proceedings of the Commissioners were null void, it was permitted to contirme to exist? If it was illegal—if its objects were fraud, falsehood, and the interests of partisans—why was It not stopped during that period ? Because the persons by whom that was declared knew fell will that such a Commission was n,,t ilk.a1. They knew that such Commis- sions had been issued in every reign since the Revolution. They knew that the Commission in question was the result of an address to the Crown horn the House of Coma llllll s, founded on the report of a Committee. He would not have taken up so much of the time of the House on this subject, but when found some of the highest persons in the realm in another place attacking the Ceminission, he felt it incumbent upon him to stand up in his place in its defence. With respect to himself, at the time when he received the appointment of Chief' Cuminiseioner, he was no willing actor in the scene; but having been asked to take the office, he did so, because he thought he might render the public some service in it. If he might be permitted to say any thing further of himself, he would express his hope, that during above twenty years of professional life, there was not a leatimil friend of his on either side of the House who had occur any thing iu his conduct to warrant the belief that he was a fit person to be picked out to carry into effect any base or corrupt object. With respect to his brother Commissioners, greater care, vigilance, attention. and correctness, he never witnessed. If the House looked at the evidence taken at the bar of the house of Lords, they would see that three fourths of that evidence was in the Report of the Commissioners; the rest was made up of general charges against the Conani.sioners, and of answers to questions put to the various Town Clerks, whether or not they would like to be turned out of office; the whole of which were crowned with this question, put to the Town. Clerk of Liverpool, whether be really drought the Corporation of Liverpool would be improved by the aperation of the bill ?—to which his answer WA.% " Certainly not." (A laugh.) That was a general specimen of the evidence taken at the bar of the noose of Lords on the occasion. In several instances the witnesses were asked of some statement in the Report, " Iii nut that scandalously false?" In general they avoided giving a distinctly affirmative reply, and were then pressed to do so. Ile certainly thought he had a right to complain of the con- duct of the counael by whom the exumination attire bar of the House of Lords had been conducted. Ile always understood that it was a counsel's duty to do all he could for his client; but that duty was accompanied by another, namely, that he should satisfy his conscience that he was not committing wrong. That became still more necessary when the attacks of counsel were made upon a class of persons who, like themselves, depended upon character, and who could never get on if it were supposed possible that they could be guilty of dishonour- able conduct.

Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE considered that the bill, as it stood, was a mere mockery—an apology for reform ; and in strong language he protested against taking it.

Sir SAMUEL WHA LLEY thought, that with so much good as the bill contained, there should be no hesitation about accepting it. Mr. Sergeant WILDE was in favour of accepting the bill, but could not declare too strongly his disapprobation of the Lords' alterations—. He felt satisfied that the real and sole object of those alterations was to retain as. much as possible of the old system of corruption under the new state of things that. would. be created by the bill ; and he firmly believed that their

Loidships, in making the alterations, never intended or expected that the bill would he received and passed by the Commons. Ile was convinced. indeed, that the highest gratification that could be afforded to the Lords would be for

the House of Commons to reject the bill as it then stood. That however as, in his opinion, the lad course that the House ought to pursue, because, although the bill in its mutilated state did not give all that could be desired,' still it must be remembered that the effect of It, even as it then stood, would be to establish throughout the kingdom legitimate bodies, through which the public opinion might be made to bear directly upon both branches of the Legis- lature.

Mr. Wilde then detailed the circumstances under which the bill had been introduced Into Parliament, amid contrasted the manner in which it had been received and discussed by the Lords and by the Commons. In reference to the speeches of Sir Charles Wetherell and Ale. Knight, he said__.

No two speeches that he loud ever heard fall from the lips of men had occa- sioned him 90 much surprise and astunishmeut. They exhibited not only a total iguorruce in total forgetfulness of the contents of the vuluminons reports Mr. SPRING RICE contended that the conciliatory spirit evinced by the Commons in dealing with the Lords' amendments lord not met with the return it merited. For the sake of the House of Peers, he regretted this.- He knew that if the House of Lords had grasped that opportunity of setting theniselyee right with the Country by a hank and cordial expression of a union of opinion with the House of Cimummuumuiim, iii the amendments this House then sent up to the Lords, they would have (box more to defend the House of Lords against evil than could ten thousand angry speeches nude at the bar of that House, or ten thousand cheers from those who heard those speeches or ten thou- sand defences of the Lords ou the part of Lord Sandon. All would have been forgotten, except their am-quiescence in time amendments. Therefore, one of his reasons for regietting that another course was taken, Was not merely that the bill had not been improved to the extent that it might have been, hut that the House of Lords had missed one of the greatest opportunities for setting them- selves well with the Country that ever was offered to them. At the same time, neither now nor at any other time had he spoken with the slightest disrespect of the House of Lords. But looking back to the course pursued by the House of Lords for the last fifteen years, he saw, that if that course were perseveted in, it must impair their usefulness to the public.. It was true their Lordship had agreed to many salutary measures. Indeed, be never despaired of their Lord- ships' acquiescence in the measures of inquovement that might be proposed to them, sooner or later, lie did not despair that they would acquiesce, sooner or later, in the amendments which they had now rejected. But when lie hall said "sooner," they had always said " later." (Laughter.) They had acquiesced in a manner which rendered their acquiescence valueless frequently to t boss! upon whom the boon was conferred. Look back to the Catholic question ! Cook back to the question affecting Dissenters! . In like manner, look back to the question of Reform ! Reform, like the other two measures, was at first resisted by the Lords boldly, and apparently upon principle; it was aftel wards conceded, bat in a manner that at least did not increase the value of the concession. This bill, again—why, every amendment that was made by the Lords, had the effect, so admirably stated by a right honourable gentleman, not now in his place, of im- plying distrust without conferring security. ( Cheers. ) " The House of Lords, tiiehsn8 reluctant to adopt the principle of popular reform, must necessarily feel mere reluctance than we, as Members of a Reformed House of Commons, to such measures as the present. But surely, surely we shall see the day when the two Houses of Parliament, either from conviction or necessity, shall place themselves

upon a more harmooious principle for combined action. The time is co g ; the very admissions in this bill prove it. May it come speedily, and avert the dangers that must otherwise threaten us."

Mr. TENNYSON D'Erricourr protested in the strongest possible

which had beeu printed upon the subject, but they abounded in statements relating to coustitutional law so utterly groundless, so completely ill.grounded,

so grossly at variance with all that was known and understood upon the sub- ject, that he would venture to say no lawyer's clerk who had been six months m an office would have disgraced himself by uttering them. Lord SANDON spoke to order : he complained of this reference to what passed in the other House.

Mr. Sergeant WILDE assured him that he had no intention of treating the Peers with disrespect.......

Inthe observations be was making, when the noble lord interrupted him' lie was merely discussing the difference of the mode in which the bill had been treated in the two Houses. The evidence heard at the bar of the House of Lords was such as the lowest tribunal in the empire would be degiaded by listening to for a moment ; yet, in the House of Lords, it was not only received, but cheered to the very echo, and, by way of completing the solemn mockery, was gravely declaied by their Lordships to be convincing. (Laughter.) lie bad already stated the regret he felt at the alterations which the Lords persisted in making in the bill—they were important, but they were not fatal ; they left in full and unimpaired vigour the great pm incipic upon which the hill proceeded, and from Which, as time and popular intelligence advanced, many benefits and many hies- idngs must necessarily spriag. Still he believed, that the reason why a stronger and more genetal expression of feeling had not taken place with respect to the Lords amendments, was because the full effect of them was not yet suffi- ciently understood. The effect of the rating qualification in the town of Newark would be to exclude every Alderman except one—even the Mayor would not escape. In conclusion, lie obsei veil that the Country, looking at the course which had been taken in the two Houses of Parliament, the manner in which the bill had been considered in that House, the principle upon which it had been introduced, and the manner in which the Lords'amendinents had been received, would have good cause to perceive that the Reformed House of Commons was a safe House of Commons, and that if it had not achieved all that could be de- sired, it was only because the People had not given them a stronger force. (cheers.)

Sergeant Wilde spoke for about an hour, with great ability ; and at the present time a good report of his speech would have been most use- ful • but this miserable fragment is all that is given in the fullest of the Daily Papers.)

Lord EBRINGTON regretted the conduct of the Peers, and the dis- eOrdatice of the two Houses— Though he disapproved of some remarks that bail been made with regard to the Lords, still he could not shut his ears to the words that had been used by a large portion of persons, not of extreme opinions, but, on the contrary, removed from the turmoil of party polities, and who were accustomed to judge not from party feelings, but from facts. He could not shut his ears to the opinions ex- pressed by the People of the impossibility of the two branches of the Legislature continuing as they were. Ile was always anxious that each of the three branches of the Legislature should enjoy its full integrity, and the full exercise of its rights; but, at the same time, he could not fail to be influenced by the prevalence of the opinion to which he had alluded. He was persuaded that the veneration which belonged to the House of Lords in the eyes of the People of England would not continue, unless the People found that the principles of the House of Lords worked practically better for good government. In what he bail said, he had expressed his sincere and conscientious opi tt i tt n ; SO opinion founded not only upon the grounds he had himself stated, but frotn what he had heard from many persons who were far from being die advocates of extreme measures. Ile earnestly hm.ed that the House of Lords would consider seriously of this crisis, in a spirit which the importance of the case demanded, and that it, the course of the next session of Parliament, that assembly would exhibit a tone and temper better adapted to the present state of puleic opinion than it had done in this. (Loud cheering.) Lord SANDON was of opinion that occasional differences should not be laid hold of to produce a pennant:lit collision between the two Houses— The conduct of the House of Lords had not been such as to alter this bill SO as to make it impossible for the House or Commons to agree with it. On the contrary, it was the opinion of many in this I louse, that the bill was a very great unproven:era of the nitnicipal corporations ; and not only so, but that It would be the nieans, by asol by, of obtaiiiing other improvements. (Cheers.)

manneragainst the amendments, which were the Lords' peculiar portion of the bill; but was willing to take it as the best to be had at present

Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH said, that by agreeing to so many amendments, the Commons had made a useless attempt to conciliate a set of men who had shown that they neither knew their own interest nor the feelings of the Country— He contiUded that the interests of the Aristocracy—of that exclusive set cori. posing the House of Lords—were different, and at variance with the general interests of the People; and that it was hopeless to expect a change in their con- duct without a reform. A few years ago, an open expression of opinions such as these regarding the House of Lords, would have created thegreatest asto- nishment ; but now the general question asked was, " What is the use of the House of Lords?" (" Hear, hear I") What had brought about this state of things, but the conduct of the Louis themselves? It was their conduct in regard to the Reform Bill, to the Municipal Reform Bill, and to the Irish Church Bill, by their opposition to which last they showed themselves indifferent to the wel- fare of Ireland, that the change came in regard to them in the opinions of the People; and lie would say, that if they should show the same feeling in regard to a few more measures brought forward for the good of the country, the People would begin to see that they could not be reformed in any manner, save by being dissolved. ( Cheers.) Mr. LENNARD acceded with much relactance to the Lords' amend. ments- It was with great regret that he found it necessary to allow the amendments of the Lords iii this respect to be passed without opposition ; but it was a satis- faction to him to have hearth a distinct declaration from his Majesty's Govern- nient, that the present measure was not in any way to be looked upon as a final one. For his own part, lie protested against being in any way bound by what was now done; and he said this in order that next session, if a proposal should be made for giving the People that election of their Magistrates which had been refused to them by the Lords, it should not be objected that the question had been settled by Act of Parliament. With reference to the House of Lords, he believed, from all he bad seen, that the conduct which had been long pursued by that House bad impressed the People with a very strong feeling, and one which was exceedingly difficult to be restrained ; and be could not help expressing his opinion, that the time was come when it was absolutely necessary for that House to put itself in harmony with the People.

Sir EDWARD CODRINGToN, Major BEAUCLERK, Mr. WARD, and Mr. P. HowAtto, spoke briefly to the same effect. Mr. WALLACE said the bill was better calculated to root out Toryism than any measure which bad been carried since the Reform Act. Colonel SIBTHORPE and Mr. IluonEs IluotiEs eulogized the Lords for the improvements they had effected in the bill.

The amendments were then agreed to. On 1Vednesday, the bill was taken up to the House of Lords ; where, with several others, the Royal assent was given to it, by com- mission.

2. Rum TITHES: DEBTS OF THE CLERGY.

On Tuesday, Lord MELBOURNE moved the third reading of the bill for empowering Government to stay suits for arrears of the million loan against the Irish Clergy, till the 5th of April next.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE said, that the sooner the Country made up its mind to the loss of this money, the better, for the Clergy :could not repay it-

" Indeed, it was hard that the Government should call upon the Irish Clergy to make repayment of any sums advanced on account of this loan. The pro- perty in tithes pertained as justly to the clergy as private property pertained to their Lordships, and the Government was bound to protect the clergy in their rights and vindicate the law at all risks. It had been said that the collection of 12,000/. tithes was attended with an expense of 28,0004 but it should be re- membered that not the collection of money, but the vindication of the law was the object in view. He could not conclude the few observations which he had addressed to their Lordships without expressing his regret at the deplorable state to which Ireland had been reduced in consequence of the unfortunate resolution which had been passed in another place. That resolution talked of appropria- tion and surplus, when it was made as clear as day that no such surplus was in existence. Such a surplus COU141 not possibly exist, for though in some places there might be large revenues with a limited Protestant population, in others there were large populations with limited revenues. Now, if the revenues were equally applied there could not be a surplus. The resolution, however, had served its purpose, for it won over to the Government the whole effective force of one party in the House as a consequence of the pledge. (Cheers.)

Lord .MELBoURNE said, that the money was voted on the distinct understanding that it should be repaid ; and it was only on that under- standing that the bill authorizing the loan could have passed the House of Commons. He was quite ready to have made the loan a grant if their Lordships would have consented to the bills introduced for the purpose of restoring peace to Ireland, by settliog the Tithe question.

" This, however, their Lordships had not done; and he would ask whether, under these circumstances, Ministers would be justified now, without consider- ing the peculiar eircunistances of different clergymen, in at once remitting this loan? He would ask, was it not right to inquire whether clergymen bad obtained the means of paying that which had been advanced or not? Could they, in the honest discharge of their duty as Ministers—could they, acting in a proper economic spirit, at once, and without any consideration or arrange- ment whatever, give up all this money to the Clergy of Ireland, without any one reason to justify them in taking such a course? Lord Wharncliffe said that the Clergy never could pay this money. He did not mean to say that, as to many cases, that might not be the fact ; but be believed that it did not by any means apply to all. It would assuredly be proper for the Government to enforce the chains, where it was necessary, but certainly not where the justice of the case, or a sympathetic feeling for the situation of the clergyman, called for forbearance, and rendered the recovery of such claims difficult. His noble friend had gone a little into the general question, and bad censured the conduct of Ministers in office and out of office; he had censured their proceedings in the House of Commons and in that House. He certainly could not, in any respect, agree with his noble friend in the view which be had taken of those proceedings. In his opinion, the measure which bad been introduced with respect to the Irish Church was wise and prudent ; and lie thought that if there Lordships had agreed to the reasonable reformation of the Church Establish- ment in Ireland which had been proposed, there would have been, not rnere Iv! hope, but a certainty, of settling this much-agitated question on a e !tad reasonable foundation. Their Lordships had, however, viewed the matter in a different light; and deeply did he deplore, in common with his ,noble friends that the settlement of this question was left in so uncertain a state.'

Lord ELLE'NBOROUGH asserted, that the conduct of Ministers had materially impeded the operation of Lord Stanley's Act. :;,It bad excited the apprehensions of the landlords, who would not advance money to the clergyman, which they feared they never could recover. When be looked to the resolution which wee placed on the journals of the other House, he felt that there was no hope, not the slightest, that their Lordships could ever agree to it. He would say, that that resolution had created a new, an unneces- sary, a most unfortunate obstacle, to that union of public men which Lord Lansdowne and Lord Melbourne must acknowledge to be essential to the public good, because it was essential to the proper government of the country. While that resolution stood, there could not be funned a Government equally beneficial to all parties, and firmly determined to do their duty towards all classes. There was no hope of it.

Lord WESTMEATII censured the conduct of Ministers with regard to the Tithe question.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, it was necessary that a distinction should be made between those of the Clergy who could and those who could not repay the money advanced to them— Ile could not consent that a very large sum of money should be taken from the pockets of the People of England to support the Clergy of the Church of Ire- land, especially as their Lordships bad rejected a measure which would have gone far to the settlement of the Tithe question. Lord Ellenborough had stated, that while the resolution of the House of Commons remained on the journals of that House, it was impossible that there could be a union of public men for the go- vernment of the country. He regretted that any difficulty should be interposed to prevent the union of public men at the present moment ; but be felt himself bound to defend the resolution of the House of Commons, as being perfectly con- stitutional.

. The Earl of RODEN said, that tithes would have been promptly paid as the South of Ireland, but for the declaration of Ministers that tithes should be extinguished. Government, it seems, would give up the money if the House would pass the Irish Church Bill— But neither the Clergy of Ireland, nor himself, nor those who took the same view of the subject that he did, would ever consent to receive such a bribe as an inducement which should lead them to desert their duty. They would never, in consequence of any such remittance, allow the alienation of that property which was intended for the support of the Protestant faith, to the propagation of another and a very different faith.

The bill was read a third time, and passed.

3. ORANGE LODGES.

Mr. HUME, on Monday, laid on the table of the House of Commons the Report of the Committee on Orange Lodges. On moving that it be printed, he said, that As there was not time for the printing of the Report and putting it in the hands of Members before they separated, he felt bound to state that the Committee in the Report recommended to the attention of the House the order issued by Lord Hill, of the date of 31st of last month, in which it was stated, that any officer or soldier attending an Orange Lodge should be subject to be tried by a Court-martial for disobedience of orders, and might be dismissed the service, or otherwise punished. The Committee also stated they were bound to observe that in nearly every corps in the service, whether the militia or regular forces, at one time or other an Orange Lodge had existed. The system extended to the regiments at Malta, the Ionian Islands, Gibraltar, Van Diemen's Land, and to a very great extent in the Canadas ; and that no effi- cient measures had been taken to put an end to the Orange Lodges in military bodies. The Committee also suggested to the House the propriety of dismiss- ing from every office civil or military, every person who continued to hold any ofhce in connexion with the Orange Lodges. He would, however, lay on the table the address he intended to propose at the beginning of next session, if his Majesty's Government did not previously come forward and recommend the Crown to dismiss any person from his office who was connected with any society in which there were secret oaths and secret signs and tests.

Colonel PERCEVAL denied that the Orangemen were connected toge- ther by secret signs, and asserted their devoted loyalty.

Mr. AGLIONBY said that every member of the Committee was pre- pared to sanction all that had fallen from Mr. Hume.

The motion was agreed to.

4. TILE PROROGATION.

On Thursday, soon after two o'clock, the King, accompanied by the Chief Officers of State, entered the House of Lords, and took his seat on the Throne. There were very few Peers in the House—only twenty-three altogether. Most of the Foreign Ambassadors were present, but the number of ladies was smaller than usual. The Com- mons having been summoned, the Speaker, with about thirty. Members, came to the bar. Mr. ABERCROMBY delivered a speech in the usual form, mentioning the prominent acts of the session ; and then presented the Appropriation and a few other bills to his Majesty for the Royal

assent. Which having been given, the KING read the following Speech, in a very distinct and firm tone-

" My Lords and Gentlemen—I find with great satisfaction, that the state of public business enables me to relieve you from further attendance, and from the pressure of those duties which you have performed with so much zeal and assiduity. "I receive from all Foreign Powers satisfactory assurances of their desire to maintain with me the most friendly understanding ; and I look forward with confidence to the preservation of the general peace, which has been, and will be, the object of my constant solicitude. " I lament that the civil contest in the Northern provinces of Spain has not yet been brought to a termination ; but, taking a deep interest in the welfare of the Spanish Monarchy, I shall continue to direct to that quarter my most anxious attention, in concert with the three Powers with whom I concluded the Treaty of quadruple alliance; and I have, in furtherance of the objects of that treaty, exercised the power vested in me by the Legislature, and have granted permission to my subjects to engage in the service of the Queen of Spain. "I have concluded with Denmark; Sardinia, and Sweden, fresh Conventions, calculated to prevent the traffic in African slaves. I hope soon to receive the ratification of a similar treaty, which has been signed with Spain.

"I am engaged in negotiations with other powers in Europe and in South America for the same purpose; and I trust that ere long the united efforts of all civilized nations will suppress and extinguish this traffic.

"I perceive, with entire approbation, that you have directed your attention to the regulation of Municipal Corporations in England and Wales ; and I have cheefully given my assent to the bill which you have passed for that purpose. I cordially concur in this important measure ; which is calculated to allay Ells- content, to promote peace and union, and to procure for those communities the advantages of responsible government. "I greatly rejoice that the internal condition of Ireland has been such as to have permitted you to substitute for the necessary severity of a law which has been suffered to expire, enactments of a milder character. No part of my duty is more grateful to my feelings than the mitigation of A penal statute, in any case in which it can be effected consistently with the maintenance of order and tranquillity. "Gentlemen of the House of Commons—I thank you for the readiness with which you have voted the Supplies. You have provided not only for the expenses of the year, and for the interest upon the large sum awarded to the owners of slaves in my Colonial possessions, but also for several unexpected and peculiar claims upon the justice and liberality of the nation. "It is most gratifying to observe, that not only have these demands been met without additional taxation, but that you have made some further progress in reducing the burdens of my people. "I am enabled to congratulate you, that the terms upon which the Loan for the Compensation to the Proprietors of Slaves has been obtained, afford con- clusive evidence of the flourishing state of public credit, and of that general confidence which is the result of a determination to fulfil the national engage- ments and to maintain inviolable the public faith. "My Lords and Gentlemen—I know that I may securely rely upon your loyalty and patriotism ; and I feel confident that in returning to your respective counties, and in resuming those functions which you discharge with so much advantage to the community, you will recommend to all classes of your coun- trymen obedience to the law, attachment to the Constitution, and a spirit of temperate amendment, which, under Divine Providence, are the surest means of preserving the tranquillity and increasing the prosperity which this country enjoys." Lord DENMAN, as Speaker, then declared that Parliament was pro- rogued to the 10th of November. The King left the House, and the Commons retired from the bar.

In the House of Commons, the SPEAKER went through the ceremony of reading a copy of the Royal Speech, and shook hands with the Members present; and the session was brought to a close.