nrInitf to princOin0 in VarTianirnt.
1. THE REFORM BILL. The new Bill was introduced to the House of Commons on Monday. The House and Galleries were quite crowded, but the muster of strangers outside was by no means so great as on for- mer similar occasions.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, after some preliminary observations, on the importance of coming to a settlement, in respect to a question the mere agitation occasioned by which had now become almost as important as the question itself, proceeded to notice the pledge by which Ministers were bound to effect that settlement.
44 It will be recollected, that at the end of last session, when the Reform Bill was rejected by the House of Lords, Earl Grey declared that he remained in office only with the intention of bringing forward a measure not less efficient than that which had been rejected. The noble Earl made that declaration in the face of Parliament ; and he made it also to his Sovereign, who was graciously pleased to express his wish that the Noble Earl should remain in office. By that tie he remains in the situation he now holds—by that tie he holds the con- fidence of the People of England, which was immediately expressed to him on his making the declaration to which I have just adverted, that the second measure of Reform should be no less efficient than the first. I meal these circumstances to the minds of the members of this House, because they will save me from the necessity of going into the general topic of Reform, or of restating those reasons on which the principle of the Bill that was rejected last session mainly rested. 'This House has declared, that to the principles of that Bill, and to the leading provisions of it, they are firmly attached. His Majesty's Government rest upon this foundation. The pledge given by this House in favour of Reform and of the former Bill introduced by Government renders it unnecessary for me to argue the principles of the present Bill ; it will be sufficient for me to say, that they are the principles on which alone the Government could propose any bill of reform, and assuredly the principles on which alone they could propose such a bill to this "House, which must reject any measure that was not conformable with their own -declared sentiments. The statements, then, which I shall have to address to the house, will regard merely the mode of carrying the principles and provisions of the proposed measure into effect, so as to give them a due degree of permanence, and such an adaptation to the existing institutions of the country as would obviate the necessity of those alterations which almost every great and complicated mea- sure was in the course of a few years found to require. My observations will be directed rather to explaining the alterations that have been made with this view, than to arguing principles.'
He went on to notice the principal features of the former Bill,—the disfranchisement of the small boroughs; the enfranchisement of large towns ; the increase of members in counties ; the rules on which these several changes had been framed. The census for 1821 had been of necessity adopted when the first Bill was introduced; now they had lire census of I891 from which-to draw their data. As, however, it was more than probable that trickery might have been resorted to in that census, to swell the apparent population of certain boroughs, Ministers had adopted a somewhat different test from the last, which was the test of population only.
" We have thought," he said, " that as the test of population might not, in alheases, be perfectly accurate, it would be better to take lioness than persons ;
as it is much less likely that any improper practices should be resorted to with regard to the return of the number of houses, than with regard to the return of the number of persons ; for a number of persons might he collected together in a
single day, in order to add to the amount of the inhabitants of auv particular place,—a trick which could not be practised with respect to the number of houses. of there is another reason why we considered it proper to take houses instead of persons.". The difficulties respecting the exact limits of the several boroughs, which had occasioned a great deal of discussion during the progress of the last Bill, and wEich the C011,■11,, of 1531 offered no ((Wane of removing, land now been very nearly if not wholly got rid of, by the labours of those gentlemen whose names appeared in the last Bill as Commissioners for the purpose of defin- ing the limits of Wiroughs, and also of such counties as were meant to be divi.led. Letters had, in addition, been written to the returning officers ; and their an- swers, with the whole of the inffirmation procured by the Commissioners, had been submitted to Lieutenant Drummond, one of the Commissioners, with in- structions to make out a list of the hundred least important boroughs, taking as a test of the importance the number of houses in each ; combined with another test, adopted for the purpose of making. a proper distinction between boroughs that had a great number of mean and small houses, and boroughs that had a smaller m intfcc of houses, but large ui respectable,—namely, the amount of as- sessed taxes paid by each borough for the year ending the oth of April last. On the data furnished by the list made out by Lieutenant Drummond—width, to- gether with a letter, explaining most fully and satisfactorily the principle, on which the list was formed, \could be laid before the Mouse—the first step of the new Bill, namely its Schedule A, was founded. The number of boroughs in Schedule A in the furrier Bill had been adopted as the number in Schedule A of the present Bill-56. In consequence, however, of the difference of the test applied, there would be a slight change iu the names.
Lord John proceeded to notice these changes, as well as the changes proposed in Schedules B and 1)-
" The following borough, will be removed from Schedule B to Schedule A ; namely, Aldborough, A marsham, East Grinstead, Okehampton, and Saltash. There is another borough, which is, besides, the last of the fifty-six that stand lowest in the document zilt-enly refiTred to, and respecting which place some,
doubts have arisen, 1/11'11' to a quest:, in Ic raised as to its limits, which is even
now unsettle( mean Ashburton ; the ultimate fate of this borough will be
determiued by the result of the hum iry which is now being made. Supposing Ashburton to be one of the fifty-six berouglis of Schedule A, it is proposed to take out of that schedule the boroughs of Midhurst, Petersfield, Eve, '.Marston, Wood,t,wk, and Lostwithiel. I have now come to Schedule B; and there is one observation which falls naturally to be made on that schedule—namely, that the bo- roughs in it have been selected on totally different principles from those by which WC were guided in malting out Schedule A ; the boroughs in Schedule A being altogether unfit to retain any representatives whatever, whereas those iu Sche- dule B have been selected, and the clause itself framed, with a view to the general representation of the whole country. The first object which we originally sought to obtain was to restrict the numbers of these smaller and inferior boroughs within such bounds as, compared with other places, it ought in justice to be; and the second was, by their partial disfranchisement, to enable us to make some considerable diminution in the nunthani of the House, as was contemplated by the framers of the last Bill.. With respect to the propriety of these boroughs not retaining two representatives each, the opinions of the framers of the Bill are unchanged. With respect to the origitial idea of not filling up all the vacan- cies created by the total or partial disfranchisement of boroughs, that, I must confess, has been to us a matter of very serious consideration. The question was, whether, after having conferred the franchise on populous and wealthy towns, and after having increased the number of members of the largest and most import- ant counties and cities, in such a way as to leave the total number of the House only twenty-three Less than it now is, it would not be more advantageous, and would not tend to conciliate many members who were opposed to any reduction of the members of the House, to concede that point to them, and suffer the House to remain at its present numbers, particularly as this could be effected -without violating any one principle of the Bill, and without even departing in any degree from our original views on this point. In considering this question, we perceived that another advantage might be gained in filling up the numbers of the Hom.:.—we had thus the means of overcoming one of the most constant objections which had been urged to the former Bill by those who otherwise were friendly to it. It was constantly objected to us, that those large towns to which it was proposed to grant only one member, would be in a state of continued discontent until they were suffered to send a second member. In determining, however, to retain the present number of members, we have not yielded altogether to the arguments which were brought forward on behalf of some of those towns, and in support of their claim to two members ; because we plainly saw, that one member was quite sufficient to represent their interests, and it would not have been advantageous to them nor conducive to the general good to grant them two ; yet, in other cases, it was equally seen that a just claim to increased representation had been made out. These considerations have induced us, in sonic degree, to swerve from our original views on this subject. I think it is very' evident that no advantage was to be obtained by giving two members to each of the newly enfranchised towns, that is, by placing the whole of the towns in Schedule Don the same footing as those in Schedule C, as was proposed by Lord Milton. Had we done so, we should have given a preponderance to the manufacturing towns, which it was clearly the opinion of the House ought not to be given without some adequate compensation to the agricultural part of the representation. It was then taken into consideration whether we could advantageously increase the number of re- presentatives for the counties ; but it did not appear that the number of those which were to return four members could be well increased, or that there re- mained any more counties to which it would be expedient to give three mem- bers. The only remaining mode, therefore, of obviating the objections which had been made to any diminution of the numbers of the House, was by giving back to certain of the largest of the boroughs in Schedule B their representa- tives, and by distributing the remainder among the towns in Schedule D. . Sup- posing, then, we take 41 as the number of boroughs in Schedule B, as it wasp the last Reform Bill—it is proposed, that of the 23 members who must be dis- posed of to fill up the number of the House, 11 shall be given to the most conside- rable towns in Schedule B ; that one shall be given to Chatham, so as to render that town quite independent of Rochester; and that one shall be given to the county of Monmouth, from which there have been several petitions for an addi- tional member, and in which there is only one borough, though its population now exceeds 100,000. Thus there are 13 of the 23 disposed of; the remaining 10 we intend to give to the ten largest towns to which the late Bill gave one re- presentative each. The consequence is, that there will be only 30 boroughs in Schedule B, instead of 41; and in Schedule C, instead of 12 members, there isnill be22 Instead of 69,places, as by the .first Bill, there will be only 49 places returning one representative each. According to the rule now founded one namely, the joint test of the number of houses, and the amount of the Assessed Taxes, the 30 boroughs which come into Schedule B, will be—Arundel, Ashbur- ton, Caine, Christchurch, Clitheroe, Dartmouth, Droitwich, Eye, Great Grimsby, Helston, Horsham, Ilvthe, Launceston, Liskeard, Lyme Regis, Alalmesbury, Midhurst, :krerpeth, Nerthallerton, Pktersfield, Reigate, Rve, St. Ives, Shaftesbury, Thirsk, Tintless, Wareham, Westbury, \ilium, Woodstock."
Of Tavistock he remarked- " From the reti.:H. which are not vet complete,—for fresh inr,rmation has arrived even to-day. that among the horouels of Shed B, if the number were t,,k,,.'.rated to 41, as it was in the last Bill, the borough of Tayistock wooly respecting that I., t•.e be thrown ou t1,,, unfair dealh.g. ‘•;7! amount of tilo A
Official situation to
chi.,:qm•at, ,hall oH: -• . •tt nut ;.in assertion which is !• sly 11.1se and taunt,,,, The towns tie::eilule D which seini tveo instead of one member to
Parliament, a re-
1301t,n, Brighton, Halintx, Macelestiell, Oldham, Stockpert, ,-;teke, Stroud.
In mos/Incite:20C *Jo alterations, the number of English boroughs re hinting one ment ol. each, which in 'last Bill was 6';—::a;oely, 41 of Schedule B, of :eelwilitle 1), and -I boroughs not in,luded in any schedule (Abingdon, fl; wintry, Beoalley, and [moonlit': he in The Itri.‘stlit Lill :10 in Se',Iedule 13, 15 (including. ('hathem) in Se;,..-la• a:1,1 die 4 buroughsys liefore which a .. included in twy Lord Jelin noxt i ooccoded to notice the alteration in the new borough suffioge ; v. Lich, as it is nOW proposed to stand, is none ether than a scot anti lot --tl'ritit.fc limited to houses of 10', per annum of value.
He read the choose the Bill in which the suffrage is explained, as follows.
"And b.e is ezi:leted. t 1,:tt 1;1 every city or borougli ;•:11 kit Wirtlln tern a member or mem- bers to s• nit•,:fo rat-Emend, and in e:ery plaeo shatit•g in the eleetion such rit y ,,1,111i)o low ad. lin• any p,•.•son o: cope. :my Ittrase, warehouse, connting-hour.e, or shop. e;` ;.•1-,:t-partttely orjointly, wit h any hoel oreupied therewith by him as mr noro tro..elmits I it:•:-••,-it It I tv him astenant under thesa me landlord. in any parish or township in !her, shad 1:n..a rate tir the ndiefof the poor, to claim to he rated to t her rol:o or he polo. in r,..p•ol or such promises, whother the landlord shall or shall not My 11,1 It' !w rte d !h.• rolior of tho poor in respeet thereof; and immt stab
cinder so nod :1,•!ti,fly paying or tendering the full annum: of the rate or rates,
it' any. ,15,• t:',1,••■I 111,1,,-,•nwerA of the paridt or township in 11 hick 1,i•••111i:ti., herVIty required to put the nanto or such occupier upon the rah• tho tOn., h,•;nv: :nal in ett-e such Inas...Is shall neglect or reline so to (to, te•vot holes, rer the purpose.: or Ibis art, he deemed to havt• 110'11 rated to the rebel' of ow poor in respect or smolt premises front the period at which the r‘tto Thal] have !s•en made, the anion:a whereof he shall have so paid or tendered as aforesaid: provided always, that whore by virtue of any IttIt of Parliament tin, land- lord shall be liable to the pnymcitt of the rate It r the teli,r or the poor in respect of any premises by his ternm. nothing herein contained shall be d•ented to vary or discitar!,, the tiahilily of su•di landlord; hot that in ease Its tenant who shall bawl:leen rated !In• such premise, itt con,mienee of any s,1,41 claim as a fore,ahl. stall In:die de- fault in tlic III,• pi,■1•'S rate due it respeet thereof, such landlord shall be and reraidn Boole It the paynt:•nt thereof. in the sante manner as it he had himself been rated in resp.-et of the prt•ati,es so occupied by his tenant."
A subsequent clause (the 20th) rendered it imperative on overseers of the poor to place on rile rate-book all persons claiming to be enrolled in it for the purpose of voting. In respect of existing rights of voting in boroughs, the Bill contained a slight, but, Lord John believed, an acceptable alteration. The last Bill not only continued the right of voting to present freemen, but con- ferred it on all sons of freemen who might he born, and on all appren- ces who might be apprenticed, previous to the passing of the Act, if they happened to he residents in the borough or within seven miles of it. The present Bill continues in perpetuity the right of voting where it is now exercised, and extends it to all persons who shall become at any future period freemen by birth or servitude. With respect to freeholders of cities being counties of themselves, the billowing rule was in future to be observed : where the freeholder, under the present lows, had the right of voting for the city, the-right would remain ; where he had the right of voting for the county with which the city was conneeted, it would equally remain ; and in cases where the freehold conferred no right of voting under the present law, it would confer under the Bill the right of voting for the city. In some cases, founding on the reports of the Commissioners, it had been de- termined to depart from the letter of the rule laid down last session, of requiring in all cases a constituency of 300 voters. It was discovered, that in some instances—there were but few—it would occasion more inconvenience than advantage to adhere rigidly to it. In no case would there be less than 250 voters. Lord Joint concluded- " It will now be for the House to determine whether or not they will adopt the present measure as it now stands—how far they can adopt it, consistently as a measure embodying the general principles of the Lill of the last session. Into any argument in defence of those principles it is not necessary for me to enter. Nei- ther is it my intention to go, on this occasion, into any details beyond those which I have already stated, unless it shall he the wish of the House that the debate be gone into to-night. If the House decide upoo going into the dis- cussion now, I ant ready to enter upon it ; or if the discussion be put off to a future day, I am willing to waive any further remarks at present. His Majesty's Ministers, in the discharge of the duty they owe to the country, have taken into their consideration plans of Reform of a different character from that which I have now stated to the House ; hut, after the most mature deliberation, they have come to the decision that they would not discharge their duty to the country if they brought forward any measure less efficient. They have thought the time is now come for the abolition of abuses which are scarcely denied, and which can be defended no longer. I will not now discuss the merits of the sys- tem which they propose to change, or of that by which the change is to be made; but I assume that the time is come when a change can be no longer de- ferred, and when the Legislature is imperatively called upon to adopt a new sys- tem. The system proposed for adoption is, I am prepared to contend, perfectly consistent with the strictest regard for the privileges of the people and the pre- rogatives of the Crown. I stated that the noble Earl at the head of his Ma- jesty's Government stood pledged to Parliament, that the measure to be sub- mitted to its consideration should not he less efficient than that upon which it had been already called to deliberate; and, from what I have said of the proposed measure, it will be admitted that that pledge has been fully redeemed. But there is another engagement which Ministers are also bound to keep ; which is, that while the measure shall not be less efficient than the last, it shall be at the same time consistent with the privileges of the other House of Parliament, d with
•
.•rted. It ea, been DIV desire that every inflirmation ••Itculd lie rt!Ieet••:!. i•i. ti:',1,•!' 'ill; tl ' tilf!..tt light may 1,,,,iiii,, 1,..ivie li ,,!. ii,,,..,,i,, 1, „, ,,i,i;i,i., ,i ,,i• „.•i•
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It ifriirli :,ii i. s• i• s iy t-ii •1- th• re has been t!.., ,„..,inu, .. tt.,... \\•],„.-.1!. :. v.:- :: :. , ",• t I. the prerogatives of the Crown. I am aware that there are some Who are favour- able to a measure which would go much further haul the present, and there are others who were anxious far a measure of loach hers extent ; but I hold. and I am anxious to impress it upon those who been opposed to the late Bill, as well as on those who are anxious to txcry eel lilt to inn 1.5t..•Ill litIVOIIII that pro- posed, that monarchy in this comitry is tent' in that that while it became necessary to adapt oth; r s:itio ;on, to it• we i-hould talk care not to add such as might he incoe,rtibit• h it. It' we ••, y..irit is pissing, and what has L.:upas-Mg in I:, • •e!'.. h I, .1 r ee, we shall find ile,dligence of .tly in Coo, ahout xist hut of some tar!;-.• portion of b:.• crintInal law, • • •ast of stmerstirious
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to.!•• ti.■ n:!oy ■11;:•:i, 6:1g- 1:•:Todu:•;•• •aces in tilt' I•1111:n, \`■ i , :11111 ■•••■)111 day to HICItell in •!:.i nu Chitligo, in her LIV:•-•,11,:, e " • : ,,-1111■)V tl:•;it I :if I • ••I v,,ice of the country III•I't•I;,rup,• I I I • ' • •• :•hanges valenlated
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time to col.* ',Wu any examination of merits of . -• • -:It which it is now sought to ch•!trge, lien is ti,t iv,. • to. The tir• .tt which the !louse lets to etmsid..r is. whether t In, time It., ■•■••• new come ‘s-h.•tt seine cliangeid' that system is ruptireth and IvIedier hn: :■Ich now propose he not ralrnlatol tit hind the people in ctat•htt. • :• to the great principles of the constitution. I will lit t'I.:■•:" into the which may he urged on that questioe; but I will s-y, without going- into the merits of the scstent WIiel 11'C SVC!: to tin',, al-, that that system It in now doomed to hest no longer—I will act eat it. that th::t sy,tem ing time doomed to last no Inver—I do uol ante this from any h•olacii by gentlitmen on this, I 111Call side, from the by gent !emelt at the 0; Tosiie side ; 1 take it from their tie, declarations made in Loudon, Liverrool, and other places where strong eNitressions of public opinioa have been made, from which c..,:pression it is char den the present sy•-tetit van- IIM last, and equally clear that the system proposed in its stead is not considered by the [midi,- as that monstcr wItieli it 1••:, 'teen dosrribcJ, but that on the con- trary, it is looked upon—as I ani siir: tint which I am now about to move for leave to introduce hill be considered—as a utt•mitire calculated to provide for the peace, Ivelfave, and prosperity of the country."
Sir R011EnT professed himself as much disposed as Lord John Russell was to waive dismission in the pr; sent stivoe Sit' the measure; it would only lie anticipating that whit+ must take place on the next. The questions to be then discussed had been passed over by Lord John : they were—the necessity, of the elintige int endured by the 11111; the origin of the neeessity if it existed, whether in the state of the country or the measures of the .Ministry ; the coollbarative vain( of the advantages to be conferred by the change, and of the dangers that must accrue from it.
that there lots ia•-,•a a
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and devotion of all those, in and out of the House, who deprecated the destruc- tion of our free and liberal institutions, and who sought fur the continued main- tenance of the monarchy in it, Usual dignity and freedom But what chiefly excited his surprise and aemanded his gratitude, was the pious offering that had been made to the IllalleS of the det.e;tsed Parliament. Porcine of the changes now to be introduced, viz. that for maintaining the full complement of 65S members, was precisely General Cascoyne's motion, for supporting which the last Parlia- ment had been dissolved. ( Cheers fiun the Opposition.) Lord JOHN R ussEm. explained the difference between time change
introduced into the Bill and Butt meditated by General Gaseoyne : lay the former, Ireland would still retain 105 and Scotland 5;) members, and England would have 500—by the latter, Eng-hold xvould have had 51:3, and Ireland and Scotland would have remained as they were before the Reform.
Sir llonmer P EEL observed, that this was a very sufficient reason for the production of the Irish ;Ind Scotch Bills before they proceeded to discuss the English Bill. Sir Robert proceeded—
Lord Jolla Russell had told them that Ile still adhered to the 101. clause. He
did not object to that which deku-mined the class of voters in cities and counties; riot Lord John must earn,' Hill if 10! attarlied more importauce to the accidents of the clause than to the chute it Tie• ground of the right of Natting was, !hat the gnat- t-laittling it should ocow.y a itanse of the ve:ttly value of 10L and lie rated to the poor-rate. Ile did our :-sta2 110W that dill...1'01 ii ant the clause as it stood in the last Bill. In that cliuse, rent, and assessment, and yearly value, were introduced ; ;nal he at that tin lc slated his opinion that rate alone would be the litirest as \Yell as the simphst mode of ascertaining. value ; however, he would not HOW enter upon that point. He had not risen ikir the 1)111'110,e of en- teriug into an examination, or a —,king for any present explanation as to any part of the Bill. He arose eldelly to vindicate himself and his honourable friends for the course they tool: List session in opposition to the 13111 then before Pathan tent. After all that had been said, in the House ;u id out of the House, as to the nature Mid alleged object of that opposition, what was at length the teas, that it was now declared to lie till' deliberate conviction of the King's Government, that the iilijeetions which the Opposition took were well finuided. On this important question of the formation of a new constitution for the country, they now saw that the objections urged bad not been without their important use ; and that the delay of a few months could not be considered, as it had been Si) constznitly held up, RS tuna` thrOW11 away. In a measure of this magnitude, an attention to the most minute details was of the utmost importance. Nifty an opportunity was not formerly taken to effect the alterations which were now proposed in this measure it WaS not for him to say ; but that such an op- portunity presenteil itself, m11;1. be no more denied than that such an opportunity at present existed.
He rejoiced at the delay, not-merely because it afforded an opportu- nity of amply vindicating the course he and his friends had pursued, but because, if the House should adopt the principle of the measure, and determine to make so extraordinary and extensive a change in time frame and constitution of the Government of this country, he could not help thinking, that when they approached the discussion of the details of the Bill, there would be a disposition on the part of the majority of that House to follow the course of the King's Government, and to intro- duce more amendments into the measure. Another great advantage, arising from that delay, was, that they would now have an opportunity of discussing this important question in a state of greater calmness, in- fluenced by less exeited feelings, and altogether wider circumstances better calculated to enable them to arrive at a wise and dispassionate conclusion.
And surely it would not be denied that it was a subject which, above all others, was deserving of a cahn, and deliberate, and cool consideration. If it were true that upon subjects of comparative insignificance—matters infinitely less ex- tensive in their bearing upon the interests and wehlhre of the country at large, discussion was to be deprecated, at a time when public excitement and agitation prevailed with regard to them,—if it were fit that such a course should be fol- lowed even with respect to a matter connected with science,—if it were true, that in a case where it was necessary to adopt precautions against a system of foul and unnatural murder, more disgraceful than had ever visited even savage nations,—if it were to ite that with regard to these, even, there existed a state of public feeling and excitement which rendered it fit and wise to postpone the dis- cussion of such a question,—surely it would not be denied, that when that living and nobler subject, the ConstitutiA, was to be submitted to the amputation and dissection of, he must say, not very experienced practitioners, it was no more than fit and reasonable that they should obtain the benefit of time, and that they should not be asked to go through the details of a measure of such importance with their judgments too much under the sway of external influence, and with their hands trembling under the fever of an unnatural excitement. Lord John Russell said, that an absolute necessity existed for the speedy and satisfac- tory settlement of this question,—that extravagant hopes had been excited, un- due apprehensions encouraged, and that there was no safe alternative but to turn the expectations of the people into realities. That statement of the noble Lord was a tolerably good proof how cautious a responsible Government ought to be not to encourage expectations which it might find impossible to satisfy. The assertion of Lord John Russell recalled to his mind what lie had heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer towards the conclusion of the last session. That noble Lord then told them, that when his Majesty's Government first proposed the measure of Reform, they did not expect that it would be carried by the House of Commons. It was a remarkable circum- stance, indeed, that when such a question was to be brought forward, his :Majesty's Government should not only not attempt the settlement of it by means of the free and unbiassed judgment of both Houses of Parliament, but that they should in the first instance introduce a measure which they expected would be at once rejected by the House of Commons. ("No, no!" from Lord Althorp.) He might have mistaken what fell from the noble Lord on the occasion; but on one of the last days of the session, he did understand the noble Lord to say, that when the measure of Reform was first brought forward, they expected it would be at once rejected. He, for one, deeply regretted, however opposed he was to gentlemen on the other side as to the extent and necessity of Reform, that the same moderation and temper which distinguished the speech of Lord John Russell that night, had not prevailed in the councils of the King's Government -when this question had been first introduced. Whether they were to expect front the tone of the noble Lord to-night that considerable future modifications were to be allowed in the Bill about to be introduced, be did not know; but this he would say, that he believed that he should best perform his duty to the people of this country, by viewing such a measure as this, not in its present operation, but in its ultimate and permanent effects; and that if he continued to think, as he now did, that it would he contrary to the welfare of the country, lie would best discharge his duty by giving to its principle a steady and.strenuous opposition.
Lord ALTHORP explained the nature of the remark that had fallen from him last session respecting the first reading of the Bill : what he said was—if the House had gone to a division in March last immedi- ' ately after.Sir Robert Peel's speech against the Bill, leave to bring in the
Bill would not have been granted. He never said nor meant to say, that Government had produced a measure which they did not expect to carry. He denied that, in introducing the Reform Bill, Ministers had been influenced by any consideration but the loud and general and long_ continued call for Reform. With respect to the numerous suggestions front the Opposition, on which they were HOW told they had so readily acted, he was really at a loss to find out what they were. All manner of objections had been indeed scraped together, and some of them might have been attended to, but of the motions of the Opposition he was
not aware that one had been embodied in the Bill. Supposing, how- ever, they had been, it \vas a strange ground of taunt, that Ministers
had, on the advice tendered to them by Sir Robert and his friends, to the utmost of their power improved the measure. Many of the alter- ations were of an immaterial character, and made, not so much for ally value Ministers attached to them, as in the spirit of conciliation to which Sir Robert's speech so strangely responded. Some of them—. such as embodying the reports of the Commissioners in a separate Bill —were a necessary- C011,eljaellee of the delay forced on the overnment. It would have been as impossible before to make these reports the sub- ject of enactment, as it would be absurd now mint to Mahe till'111 the sub- ject of enactment. The amount of the value of that escape from Sche- dule A. on which Sir Robert congratulated himself, teas soon ascer- tained. The former schedule contained fifty-six boroughs, and so did
the present schedule ; and with live exceptions, the names were the same. .1s to the 101. franchise, it was HOW much simpler, and would probably lie more extensive than before where, then, Nvas the ground for Sir Robert Peel's boasting ?
Mr. CnoNEll took up the same line of argument as Sir Robert Peel ; and, in vindicating the claim of the Opposition to the alterations in
the Bill, particold Fly noticed the objections offered in the eases of Ald- borough, Dorchester, Guildford, Caine, and :Xorthallerton. He acknowledged that the present Bill was better than the last ; but unless very great additional changes were made in it, his opposition would not be in any degree lessened.
The Marquis of CHANDOS expressed a hope that Ministers would yet frame the Bill in such a way as to meet the approbation of the whole country, instead of only a large party in it. There were many parts in the Bill to which be still felt insuperable objections ; parti- cularly to that part which gave so many additional members to the metropolitan districts ; and to that by which one member only was given to certain towns,—thinking, as he did, that one member could in no case adequately represent the feelings and sentiments of a large con- stituency. Mr. HUNT thought that the Bill was now improved, at least in the 101. clause, and in some of the substitutions in time schedules. It still left unrepresented " nine tenths of the adult population of the king- dom ;" and under such circumstances, he would not be so hypocritical as for a moment to say that it met or merited his entire approval. Mr. LEADER spoke against the limitation of Irish members.
Sir CHARLES FORBES ridiculed the giving of two members to a mushroom watering-place like Brighton, and oily one to such towns as Dundee and Aberdeen.
Lord EBRINGTON thought the Bill deserved and would receive the approbation of the country.
Mr. ALEXANDER BARING deprecated any attempt to cut short so full and complete a discussion of the Bill as its principles and details neces- sarily called for. Anything like a suppression of discussion would not fail to give great dissatisfaction to a most powerful class,—those who held vested interests in the country, nine tenths of whom viewed the Bill with undisguised alarm. He valued the alterations that had been introduced chiefly as betokening a desire on the part of Ministers to rest satisfied with such a measure as would conciliate all parties.
Some conversation took place on the day for the second reading ; it was ultimately fixed for Friday. Lord ALTHORP thought Parliament ought to meet as early as possible after the recess—on the Tuesday or Thursday at latest after the 7th January. Mr. SHELL expressed his disappointment at the provisions of the Bill which went to affect the representation of Ireland. When time whole number of representatives was reduced to 600, Ireland was to have 105; now that the number was to be 658, it was to have no more than 105. Scotland was in a similar predicament ; it was to have 8 additional members before, and it was to have no more than 8 still. He deprecated the continuance of corporate rights in Ireland ; it would only perpetuate religious feuds. When the rights of freemen were meant to be pre- served in perpetuity, was it meant to extend the same privilege to the forty-shilling freeholders having votes in Irish boroughs ? Lord CLIVE expressed his satisfaction at the amendments in the 101. clause, and in respect of the limitation of boroughs formerly proposed to be left to Commissioners. He hoped the conciliatory temper shown by Ministers would be fairly met. Mr. PORTMAN having expressed his gratification at the speech of Lord Clive, Sir R. H. INGLIS and Sir CHARLES WETHERELL ad- dressed the House to deprecate the inference sought to be drawn front Lord Clive's speech,—namely, that no opposition would be made to the second reading. Sir Charles said, Sir Robert Peel might oppose the second reading or not as he saw fit—lie would not fail to oppose it. Mr. SHAW noticed a remark of Mr. Shell respecting Dublin. At present there were, Mr. Shaw said, 4,000 freemen there ; under the Bill there would be 50,000 electors, and most of these would be Catho- lics. So that a perpetuation of religious disputes could hardly be ex- pected from the Bill. Mr. STUART WORTLEY, MT. PORTMAN, and Lord CLIVE, spoke in succession in respect to the former speech of Lord Clive. From the latter's second speech, it appeared that he meant to give no pledge to Ministers of sufferance or support.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, as the principle of the Bill was still the same, and as he could not, for one, perceive any great improvements in it, he . would certainly oppose the second reading. Mr. LABOUCHERE concurred with Mr. Sheil in regretting that no- thing more was to be done for. Ireland. With respect to the gratitude due to the Upper House for the additional leisure which their rejection of the Bill had given for its more mature consideration, Mr. Labou- chere observed—
He was one of those who did not feel that gratitude. On the contrary, he
caw many evils arising from the rejection of the former Bill, although lie ad- mitted that some advantages had been obtained. He could not six why the other House of Padiament might not have sent the Bill down with their amend- ments and intprovements, and by that means have enabled the country to escape many evils which have resulted from the loss of time and the continued agitation of the question. He as 'tern as ethers would have been ready to give the sng- gestions of the other House their best consideration, and to Lye :my measures which were likely to procure that degree of unanimity N.:1MA! rite interests of the country demanded. lie considered it tuditir tit claim for tlie members of the niter House a gratitude to %Odell they wiire nor e tit hi id. He would never cease to regret the decision of the Peers ant tit.tt oertsion, it •,v,alid be long bethre the lumbers of that III Ise reciwiTeii the respect they formerly possessed. It would be long, very long, before the hinds of the Clittrelt ratxt- vered the sante situation and power which they posse: scil More that it:dorm:are rejection of the Bill.
arr. IIixtE thought the case of Ireland was entitled to ell the coiisi- deration claimed for it by Mr. Sheil. The resolution not to add to tH members of that country, would not fail to give great and ju,t ofn.n,,e to the people. The relative proportions Of the rcpt.:sent! tioe in the three countries, formerly so clearly pointed out, scented now wholly forgotten. This part required, and lac' hoped would receive, reconsi- deration. lie doprevated also the distribution of the twenty-three members ; if they must be given to England, it .would Imet nue+ better to give them to twenty-three unrepresented towns, of which there were many, varying from 5,000 to 10,0(10 of population. He was happy to lied the principles of the former Bill fur the present adhered to, and hoped on the fiuttre discussions oil its details they would not be abandoned.
Lord SANDON'S former deelaration respecting- Liverpool being alluded to by 111r. Hume, his Lordship repeated, that the grand object of the people was to get rid of the notnination boroughs ; and that effected, it would be most unwise in Ministers to stickle for details, by whose mo- dification they might conciliate the opponents of tlit• measure. He concluded by expressing a strong hope, that by proceeding in their con- ciliatory process, they would be enabled to pass the Bill without the dangerous experiment of creating Peers for that purpose.
Mr. M. O‘FelleAt.t. having again adverted to the eitSC of Ireland, Lord Affix ItuesElet. said, that under the present law, Engle:al had 513 members, and Ireland 100; under the Bill, England would have 500 members, and Ireland 103; the latter could not be said to be 1)11100(1 in a worse position than it DOW Was.
Here the conversation closed for the evening; and the Bill WaS brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
The motion for the second reading of the Bill was made on Friday, by Lord ALTIIORP.
Lord Pollen Eserna rose to move that the second reading should take place that day six months—the ordinary form of rejection. Lord Por- chester !Monied his motion on the fact that the present Bill was in no respect more conciliatory than the hist, but on the contrary, that in its leading tendencies it was oven more democratical. He especially objected to it because of the effects which it could not fail to have on the landed interest. Ile admitted that a portion of that interest were content to receive the Bill; but he cootended, that their sufferance was Elkin to that with which " the fascinated buffido awaits the approaches of the boa constrictor which is about to devour it."
Sir EowAan Stenmos- seconded Lord Porchester's motion. Main- taining that in 51101 a measure the principles were to be sought ill the details, Sir Edward entered into a Jong and minute criticism of the different parts of the Bill, with a view to show that it must prove de- structive of the Constitution. He made a calculation of the members added to the manufarturieg, and of those added to the agricultural interest, to show the injustice done to the latter. Her (marked on the Schedules A and B, winch 141 members were to be taken from the Conservative interest ; on the borote suffrage, which he contended was now worse in principle, and would he found infinitely worse in practice, than any of the former plans. On this point Sir Edward dwelt at great length. He contended that it would lead to an indefinite extension of the constituettry; that not houses of 101. value merely, but houses of 51., would be brought in by such at law; and that it would, in consequeoce of the attempts to evade its letter, produce more perjury and false swearing than any bill ever introduced in England. Sir Ed- ward made also some technical objections to the wording of the clause ; which he contended would produce a perpetual collision ill the rate- book between the landlord and tenant. But his chief objection to it was the number of tenants which it went to include, and which would soon form a constituency so formidable in numbers as to hear down and destroy every other. Sir Edward also commented on the part of the Bill by which the decision of votes is left to a barrister virtually ap- pointed by the Chancellor ; whose influence from the Reform Bill, the Bankrupt lijII, and other sources, would soon, he said, command every barrister and attorney in the country. He ridiculed the election ma-
ehinery of the Bill ; and declared that to poll a large constituency in two days was utterly impossible. Sir Edward said the Bill went to
introduce an entirely nevi' Constitution : " there was nothing like it in the world—there never had been any thing- like it :" lie therefore im- plored members by their votes to interpose to save Ministers from its passing, and to give them time to produce a more moderate and prac- ticable measure.
Mr. E. L. BeLwErs. asked if the aristocracy, of whose rights Sir Edward was such a zealous admirer, had been rendered more powerful or more respected by the rejection of the last Bill ? or whether the re- jection of the present Bill would add to their power or influence? He denied that the extension of the franchise had any tendency to strengthen the democratical tendencies of the people: on the contrary, it bound them the more to the cause of Government. Manclieeter was at pre- sent more democratical than Liverpool, only because it was unrepre- sented.
Lord MAttoN differed from Sir Edward Sugden on one point. Sir Edward was of opinion that the Bill would produce a constitution hi- therto unknown in the world; Lord Mahon declared, that the constitu- tion which it went to establish had an exact prototype in that of Poland; and he argued its downfal as a necessary consequence of the likeness.
Precisely the same proportion of voters were to be found in Poland, in proportion to the people, as the 101. voters bore to the people of this country. That was a matter of arithmetic. In 1675, the population of Poland was 5,000,000, and the number of voters WaS 120,000; which bore the same proportion to 5.000,000 as 500,000 voters, under the new Constitution, bore to our 20,000,000 of ixspl,. The monarchy of Poland was elective ; and Jr many of their nobles had not great wealth, they had poNver ; they had all the privileges on' a feudal arktocracy, and possessed great rower. The tia:se was the same in Poland as in England.
He also pointed out a 'narked analogy between the constitution to be established under the Bill, and that under tile Spanish tortes, but Ile (lid mit particularize the points of likeness.
AlAcit-I.Ey spoke at length in defenee of the principles of the kill. He adverted to the exultation of Sir llobert Peel on Tuesday, and remarked on the very different spirit which infitteaced the Tory, from that which bad actuated the 'Whig (1 ',position.
tvere told that 1 he ilccliest gratitude was tine to the member.: of that 'louse.
whieh -had 11ffordet e111ua :111 oppi intity reconsid‘deta their daeisioa. They were tioutted wit It has iI11Z ahatabaa,t their opilli011, :tint tth:11:a0:1 1 b•ir principles, by :Ibis., ..vhase atagnanintit:.s or at least their disiTetion. starild Intv,•Ileterreil from such a ro- c:ye:Mg. Ile remember:41 an 01,1,1-i:ion which had taiieti Iliti1o1e:11 10110. lie re-
membered an Oppesilioll, which, ;trier laillalring 011 fer yoars every phut
alel every suggest outvoted by lit,' f ;m.0'11111,111, raised in ,,t; triumph. rejoiced ith II0 1111g011,0111, Alt or exultation. Nvlivil Illov Sart all I 'twit re:seinnotelat jits. titilql by the adopt 'eel of the Government. That Oppo,i; ixrr e,,as e‘ed‘aa to 5., those who came in at I lie eleven:1i hour receive the reward duo to t bode who tI It toiled in the heat or the lay. Ther, was a time when I,ord .11,1111 Russell and Sir railiert need oe• copied very dilfiirent positions : that in the eontse of single :lay tho whole of the view (,,,Iveltintiviit were dialoged with respect to Ike Test and Corponn Aeto. lYd th;, nohl, Lerd, or any who sat on his side of the 1 loaso. utter ono word )bunt prake his own wisdom by sneering at 1 lit• course ad,:pted by his opponents' lie fig: serrew, our 0Npre55e:1 le, regret. v lien he sow the 410tV ,1110 10 Romilly am/ That tioble Lord had :aide it no to It rattan wilisferred to le, 511n.i..!N matter of tamit that ernmeat had ;Mowed, :he plans Iho 1)14,0:alkali. 110 did 10,1 blame those I, le not r their rev:total hut. whose names will go down to posterity remembered ctr nothi.,:g save a whole life e1egrrautntioa.
Of the character of the present Bill, he thought highly; it was a better bill than the last. Still, he Ivould have prefelyed the last, because he considered that the (101110 more than counterbalanced the improvements it had led to. He defemied Iliinisters from the charge of precipitation—.
tie knew the evils of legislat ing in I imes eseitentent. He was sensible it produced errors, and hai1 many defects; but prudent men were to retbrin fast, because bigots would not reform early—to reforin bolus Iwo:else bigots Nvould not reform tem- perately. The former Government would not wall:. the pre:ent Government must therctbre ran. ((1,..•rs and iipp,,ifion.) if they halt reformed gra- dually, their sitece.:sors :night have 1111W retbrming gradually : but they were Will- pe110:1 10 1110V0 (I iskle, beeause their predecessors Avollial 1101 111(150 at all. (Glieur3 and la' ghter.) Of the tendency of times of great exeitement to produce extravagant. theories, and extravagant supporters of them, the !test history of country afforded sufficient proof, ill the Anabaptists of the Reforma- tion aml the Fifth AIonarchy men of the (oniinottwettltli: but \would a second rejection of the Bill abate the number or pow-or of those poli- tical fanatics \vide!' the -first rejeetiom had calltal into existence? it'hat was the present asjaa•t of England ?— A narrow-minded. perlin::,iells pnr: v above—an inforinted multitude 'beneath: rine eager to Oita in pos,ssiao, rte power—IIa. 1101' Win:112. In rail any hazard 10 retain it ; one looking on proper! • I is. of wi,:iero--1 ite hOldhrt: all property as au both se 1010:i tatter:0.: el. their .ovII ego ielerest I. I hat
SIZZIO 1111■10 experience till ina•cry of the IS sitit of 1 ivir coining into Iollkion.
Between but le those part ies 1 11,r, iVINVI'Vt.1., II hint. far Ile To everrul th,!:1• hied, 110 hoped, 10 save 1:0111 :,::series eP tbeir innilliat ion or ;Mir ex- trim, g:ince—thal ti,frt. party ,N11/,711 Lad l';111 It vonna the slim:oilers or illo first Reforni Bill. and which. he Itelievi'd, w(11'1 rally round the supporl ers et' the weed with piped zeal MD I SI TO that party—t II, vast bely of !he intelli,ent mid:11e classes-- he looked with hop, and ftenfittelice. NVilh the lloiver II. I ht. Ari:0.0eritey It their head, and the flower or the working clasi,is at their batik, that third party d: dared that it is t heir will to have lir"irm, but ten revolution—that they are determine:I to restrain se- dition, and that they will not sterol: the rights or prayer: y to he invaded. To a t,.rmi.
nation, whether harpy or unhappy. S plain lei struggle must now S111-0Iiiil- mine; and all observat ion tar the 'history 01' Etiglattil showed the igtopticty of It concessiint to the spirit of its democracy, alai that it has been regulated by laws as fixed as that or matt.t and attraction.
He strongly deprecated the insane attempt to repress the will of an entire people, by seeking. to aptily to one state of society rules derive(/ from another in all respects Ii ii rent— The control of Man over 1 Ile \vor1,1 was es slight as that over flu, lie who stri1g1,1 its coarse war bete- along liv its power—he who nisi ilea it was crushitil be it ter fight. II watt not by altstante but 11y telativo degrees of °mires. loll nation, w:ire driven to madness. Thai W Lich was 11:011110,:st itt I:nil-land might. br (1,,,,t met ivo 11orlicco. .1. Stamp Act. so liarniles, as ,,,, reel y to be felt by the tore. fathers of the l'itritans, lost England ;10 empire; and a system of govel'ilinoth milder 1111111 that of h., Fourteent11,11111 nit' ,I1)traet,r, per,i,ted in by Louis the Sixteentholeprived him aids throne aiti 1:is 1111-. Thehistory or England iifforilii.hhow- eVer, all tiro illustration which midi: ilesirea. The Government of Elizabeth 1101 better than t of I lcury the Eighth the er Charles notch mom milil then flint of Edward the Sixth. which was -sill r-Cerreti to with eontent mid exultation; bat the superior mildness of Ili, rule could not 01:0e Charles front the seaft11111.
3lacattley concluded— It impossible to govern man in the eighteenth century in the same manner he had been 70vo10tIl in the sixteenth. Asa 011 It change had taken place in soeiety, sa a groat eleingo must take place in government. It was impossilde to bring the opinions and the feeling, of men 150.k to the stale in whir! they W1.1'e a! former II •riolls of our history. A great change wits inevitable. It might be delayed: it mi0111 he rendered 1,1004 and Mist met ism lint. it could not lw avertcd. The agit ion which 11:111 so long prevailed upon the subi01:1 ro11111 not end i1, not Macy. 'file wishes of the Teeple must hr met by the Lc gislie ore, or the most disast tons consequence: must ensue. Whatever opposition might be made to il, Reform mast q'etit ;tally be carried. True wisdom would dictate to threw open the gates to a forcv which would otherwise enter a1 a breach. he was;_opposed to all movement except that which was for the benefit of the people; and who remarked, that the Government of England, matured and perfected by time. had won the admiration of Montesquieu and of the entire world. These were the opi- nions of a man—whose name must be familiar to all who knew any thing of France since the Revolution—the oldest Chil Grenadier in France; mut he refers you to the Constitution of England. as a system brought to perfection, and deserving the admi- ration of the entire world; while tlte noble Lord ivoold nut only, with an uufiliul hand, tear it to pieces, but trample it to the ground, :Lod vilify it with every term of degrada- tion. Next would he e,11 their attention to M. Gnizot : he was carried on the very filaialderS of the pailde into power, by steps made slippery ‘vith blood. Bet he remained dot long. Tlo I len the 11;w:erz.rueut because 1 ihtaid myselfunequal to stem tine torrent of the MN; , , •nt." Did the honourable and lc:trued gentleman opposite think hat he eotdd :Icon the torrent hero? Did our English I: a!zot fancy that he meld stem it ? M. t ;•iii•a■T w 7I'• a writer Li: 1.3,11011o,, of treatises upon government, and so forth— he halie.-0,1 lie had the honour of translating a production of Lord John Rus- sell', LI,,,,,jht .11,1 up in despair the atomipt to cheek the violence t.f popular fury. ;tit! Lord Jin: Russell imagine lw winsid be more successful?
Air. Croker was going on to another part of the parallel, and speaking of " a lawyer, bold, voluble, slippery, enterprising, universal, at every thing in the ring"—who " wrote pamphlets, wrote in maga- zines, in newspapers"--ltut this allusion to Lord Brougham was not well received by the blouse, which several times interrupted it by cries of " Oh !" Mr. Croker then adverted to the late riots at Lyons, as a consequence of the Revolution of the Three flays:. From Lyons he returned to Nottiattlonn and Derby once more. y Respeetiag the dis- turbances of the latter, he told a long story of an old lath,- and her daughter, who were compelled to take shelter in a laurel-bash; where the young ha,ly, '' like Antigone, supported her aged parent's head on her bosom :" the two Indies afterwards slept inn a The learned
allusion to Antigone, in connexion with lattrel-huslies and hav-lofts, seems to have excited a degree of mirth whin; considerably marred the
pathos of the tale. Mr. Croker went front Derhy to Bristol again; and from Bristol to London ; where he particularly noticed the effect whirl]. on entering from the l3ristol road, the Itim:ked-up windows of Ap•kty trouse would prodllee 011 it Stranger, anal Coo diflicldty which he would tied in accounting for barricaded houses in all unfortitied town. He coneltuled by :L sayere tirade oa Ministers- " miu:st,rs tail swe:m. ;ma btivhied on their armour, et the very moment
when le-y Imes t':eir host ile iTep:inti Mos would be nee.:ies,. ;tut oink if they were anxious to rube he tempest they have raised, it is their p,w,a•—beyouil
their marl:—bevoint the of their minds : they nev.r 'f,re.-.aw it. ait es can they stop it. Rave 1 ;,,:t hoard, and this Very lay se.m is pt int, that Ireland may be sail to owe her daiiientate to the lirmiteas of a single bon:etc:11,10 !i•lit'h is the l'abinet?—that a person, highly resir•ctable 1 admit. y.ho:a I be glad to see in any office tbr which he is tit, would have been mad, At tontey-lie Lie hale
received some other high legal appointment. hitt the re.-is. ;ic,• ma• morn' er of the
tovernment. Vet this indilhlnid was to s,ep into E !.:11• ire ht• had re- ently been indiete,1 for sedition. Nothing ennhl have pro-Ate,' I s.,,•11 an appoint: mud hut the height of timidity and Let me ad., is I he wo.n, t]e• chooser of Ids Ministers now? Coald his Ala est y, supposing he had !he ot. tile Tories in
their consittutional revel.mee tlir the hovel wishes. keep ids Mi.,ist•rs let
if.. he Radicals were opposed io th No—thereiiir,• apr.ir to :,,• the 11'1011:1s Of a system :0 lath hi, they are itheacts ho a de. Tire ;•1. tier-o;re, boyoull what even tiwy eomemplate; history :an
is ?,,, preeodent whine the Government has been on he side true se- cret of our ;• ..sition is this—that the king's name has leen :tarp., :be
very reverse .ti• his emistitutional dot,. ----whiek is I., protee: t...,,;ard nod I.,
secure not freedom of opinion, fle,dm of t-%pre,lell. itai :ti.‘ ishes of the
t",overeign niait be unavailing. when he has ,ielegated, ar Minisi.•:s who are Ind- thee his seri.a tits our their own masters, but the servaw s they in their hearts dete...t. and wid it they are doing their utmost to , The sL•t.' ewith triumph, thm ith.g I,e,•o ;;• ;1, ;•”11■,,z,, ct, Nottingham., or the rio:t•r, Co: ontry : and ilicy :h.' oven 11L. Itristoljusttca is ..... r tan: the pr,,;erii—that, Mst....,1 of g ing down to ..,,,atersa t,iiire tit :Ito rafc or t'All mil,s au hoar, iu ariice after Ike even:, nml three weeks holure the
Lord Al..rtnuatt complained of (lroker's entire abandonment of
the question Lelia:, the House. I luring three fourths of his speech, he had hardly allndeer to it. Lie replied to the attack upon Ministers— lie did nut doubt that nll Flits hail been very weleonte to the other side of the House—an atta.h. mum .7,linisiers, in connexion m deb the Reform Bill, would, or course, grai.•fol ; or argument, it uould have been wen, perhaps, if what had bean said had had -.tae trilling rethretwe to :lie question herme the ttouse. It Was 't IWy racy to ite1•11,. ■ any other s..1 of men, of indifi'..r.mce to the tranquillity of tIn IL:0;1101'v, r...11:1;,:ilks`locoatr.,1 the lawless, but it win, not so easy to prove the a,•:aisatit,a—had it been possible, the right honourable gentleman would not have failed to make the at knipt. 'The truth was, that in all situations Ministers had done t heir duty, and had elm tel their utmost power to preserve emit order, and to entbrco obedience to the lutist. Mr. tinker ettnied to think that .%lini.h.rs could only be actuated by this wish to keep ;Le:r plan s : he would not ellarg,• t he right honourable gentleman with a desire to get into them, it he :night be alio., ed to a.,k, how it hap- pened that he should think the feelimt• so extremely natural ? When the pre,: ut Government cam, into power. they he country in difficulties, and those dillietd- ties were met with prompt it .1.1e a decision. It Ilati heal! said, that there had been great delay iu the issue of a I:ommis.:1011 for Bristol; but how vaald that course
be taken betbro iireviods inquiry had ;:;;:• wh.•ther there were any prisoners to
be tried, and any witnesses against theta? It was also charged that Ministers were in tom for the windows broken during some of tiw discussions on the Reform Bill, and Mr. Croker had gone through a not very edifying story about the wonder of a stranger at some barricaded houses. These closed windows bad their elleet, and from the speech it was easy to conceive why they were kept hoarded. [Cheers, especially from the Oppesitiun.) He observed, in respect to...lir. Croker's complaint about the Not- tingham riots, that a Special Commission had been issued to try the offenders there.
Mr. CROKER—" What ! already?" No specific plan was laid down ; but these were, in the course of the evening, hinted at,—a commutation of land for tithe ; a general valua- tion of tithes, and the payment of the clergy out of the Consolidated Fund; a compulsory tithe composition act. The discussion, or conversation rather, in both Houses, was carried on with more temper and less personality than a subject so replete with- points of dispute might have been expected to produce. The principal speakers ie the Lords, in addition to the Home Secretary, were the Earl of Wreica.ow, Lord Et . . ftNaoitoron, and Earl GREY. In the Cornmon, in addition to arr. STANLEY, the principal speakers were, fzit Roe:It:re PaYt., Mr. LEADER, and Mr. SILEIL.
In two debates, proceeding la:14 passm in the two Houses, whose sub- jects nail atims Wefe precisely alike, there could be little diversity' of ;;:.:diment or statement. :Mr. STANt.Ev's speech, like Lord -MEL- nti ;ISE'S, Whirh it greatly exceeded in length and minuteness of detail, chiefly directed to ore point,—namely, the extreme difficulty of e: in Ireland, owing, first, to the disinclination of the p,•H)1e to the impost, and secondly to their inability to pay it. This d Ablation and inability are very forcibly set forth hy the extracts from co,:!munie:,tiens which he read to the Home. Having first noticed the ::;,;;: i.rane.. of the Hurlers in Kilkenny, their open suppression and se- e;.e. spread in that county, mul in Carlow, Queen's County, Wicklow, e ford, Tiltperarv, Kiint's County, Longford, and Westmeath,—in a in all tl' rst Catholie counties,—Mr. Stanley- proceeded to g; v;; ;: r■let:tre of rlit; ildinence that they exerted. First, of the system • ,,‘: sf,,t • ,h,
t
• •
Ci t,./•• '•
•
lit default of :neat, the plan was re- . :II 111L• illelliOUt during a Itt t., graze in the day-time, ',emits ulna signals of the law,, ;Uhl they were driven off. When Ili .• law ; they Were impounded ctrl brought to sale. oil' to the action: of bet:tatting it pureliaser, and this
• ,rut hine,elf. They were taken ton distant minket ;
• tl:e•■• :. Or give them a night's shelter. They were ;,. t! 1 he purpose of tieing sold in the markets of !,.! ..-1 red into, t's,..1.1 i.t this country, that no man I Ma'. ! . r to sale tor the payment of tithes. (Luad The leg-al till'iculties which the tder7,yman has to combat are not smell, cxela;sl.ve of the difficulties which such a spirit of opposition to his claims ;:resents, mid which no law, however strict, will enable hint effectually to surmount. Even where the Tithe Composition Act has been carried into operation, although the improvement in the system is manifest, yet its evils are jar front heir„ removed. The first letter read by. '2.1r. :nlev refers to a case Nvilerc 'omposition Act is in force; it is from _1rehdeatton Cotton of Thal es, The Archdeacon says—.
" ant not asking payment foe nu': tithes of this last lad ant merely suing fur arrears= of former ye:1,-1, and sttla it t !toothy way tviii h the law provides—namely, by civil bill at Iii Iplaries•-.-.1`,.'ikillS, for ilelt'S voluidarily passed by the tithe- Note, 0,111, beell 1,1.1d IOW:. ;11.!0, !Jill ls 'Melt the parties uniformly a.,line paying. comp-Ile:I to it 1.y centre of law. Moto than WWI, is now (lute to me tat sad: notes; Itad as tin-se are Ow hit; by about five hundred persons, the law r, ipth•es that oath iwtseti or his house shall b.• tel with a process before he is bontght into court. How t. ea! a ;'.ink,n11:.-, it' r..sistanee be imuh., presents itself even in till: lirst stage! Yet this is fa, from the whole; for even if these processes be s..:•ve-i mean: or etthitOriiiintry slier:Jur, the presence of the persnn who :c•;--..; !:cm. and his; oath to thatelfect, will he required at the sessions: should he his
.•;it..1 or deterred by threats (a very likely matter in the present state
of III ihe whole or these, accomplished with so much dillionity, becomes a men, vyaak • ;:,•S. saiII, it' OW 11.•:..../1 who witnessed the promis,ory miles be deterred lit the ,LItit, ii:e mules become itsid,.•ss ; and the clergyman is not only de,..••1'• d o. -rights, 1, mg :In I pit hlfully sought for, and acknowledged evt•zi by this
par' I. nun ...over is put to considerable expen-,e in legal proceedings,
all of thou fall Timm hims,df. St iii farther, if tiese , ohs; ructions are stir- naa;tIti 1. the assistant 1 tarrister is satisfied ns to the jit .tiee or the elaims, and 'Ire deerev,,, is the mai now gained ? Far from it ! Another stage of ditli- t al; y is vet to I, :Ind the EMT,' Mute fone will be brought forward to resist Lx-..utiotior I. Conri's j::::gulents awl who will dare, in the present state of that di.: ri,•t, !II ex,..•nte a single decree? In the mean time, for every one of 111:•se I niust mo.,:need. 7s. (3,1, the whole five hundred or which may possibly ti: entirely uselass."
This is a case of arrear of tithes that had been compounded for : the next offers a much stronger picture of the savage determination of the peasantry, and the destitution in which it had left the clergyman. The
later quoted is from Dr. Butler, vicar of Burchurch.
" von are aware that a meeting of Hurlers, persons unconnected with the parish. as- sembled ut Illy house, and that I would not soh:ult. to their itttimidation. Shim that day, one of nay proctors was most cruelly murdered. The other has been obliged, to leave the country. An unforinnate server of latitats was taken by forms float t.....enty-;ice pollee, and by a miracle escaped death. The roost foul and false et:lam:des liave been published coneerniug me in the Kihrnny Journal, and myself and two of my sons have finally been obliged to fly the country. And after a residence of more than thirte-six years, during which time my sole endeavour was to benefit my parishioners, i have bean banished from my' home and my duty, a starving exile. The income of the parish is above 2,0001. a year. The sums payable out of starving income amoant to inure than MI. a year,—to wit, interest on money borrowed for building the gl....bc-Itonse; quit-rent; (':own-rent, instalment to the Board of First Fruits ; rent of glehe ; schoolmasters' salary ; rent or school-house; four curates' proxies, and ex- hibits ; insurance of house awl offices which the law requires to he paid, and the charge for niaint'Taleat. The money to pay- these demands must be provided and paid. charge I have slut horses, mit-erased my carriage, parted with all my labourers and servants, and broken tip my entire establishment. I have now bat one woman servant ; and I believe that 1 am not the only clergy-man in the Caine situation, reduced from comfort to ;tbsolutepverty. ice remuneration could tempt any person to view the parish—no process-server ;with:Lied by the Assistant Barrister will serve :I tithe process—no bai- 1:X(1:ire make his appearanee; and it' legal decrees were ohialavd, they could not be executed. The ihrmers say that they have completely abolished tithes ; and that they never will pay until they know what Parliament will -do."
The amount of tithe is not so great that the tenant might not pay it if he felt at all inclined, but it is grievously enhanced by the process of collection. As Mr. Stanley had given the distresses of the shep- herd, he felt bound to give the distresses of the flock also. The se- cond picture is also from a clergyman- " There are a vast number of instances in my own parish where one poor man, whose whole tithes do not amount to more than Is. bd. per annum, and yet sub- ject him to have- his cow, sheep, pig, er horse taken and driven to pound six times in the year for tithes, and liable upon each and every driving to a charge of 2s. 6d., driver's fees, besides expense of impounding, and waste of time from his labour in seek- ing the person duly authorised to give him a receipt. He is liable to be summoned, moreover, lull decreed for vestry cess once in the year, making annually seven calls on account of thC church to his little plot of one acre: besides, his little holding is liable to two calls in the year for grand jury, public money, and frequently to two calls more for crown and quit-rent. Thus eleven mills are made Ilion his small holding in the year, besides his landlord's rent, and for sums trifling in t themselves, but perplexing and ruinous in the costs which attend them. Surely such are hardships that ought to be removed."
Such are the facts on which, aided by the enforcements of muck sound argument, Mr. Stanley founded his motion for a Committee. In the counties of Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim, Mayo, and Galway, the proportion of Catholics to Protestants was as 20 to 1 ; in Clare, they were 25 to 1; in Kerry, 11 to 1' in Limerick, 19 to 1 ; in Cork, 20 to 1 ;. and in others of the Southern and Western counties in nearly the same proportion. There were 6,000,000 of acres, with a impala- t iim of nearly 3,000,000, which were almost exclusively Catholic; and yet that portion of the country paid to the Ytotrst;tar Establishment nearly 1,000,000/. a year. Could peace or content be expected in a country where such a disproportion existed, or maid it be expected that a system of this kind could continue?
Mr. D. BROWNE advised the Government to take the Church pro- perty in Ireland into their own hands, to sellit, and apply the proceeds to pay the clergy, according to the labours they had to perform. After some compliments from Mr. G. Rewsox to Mr. Smiley, and
from Mr. GOULBrRN to his own Composition Act, Mr. Si wound up the debate. He cautioned the House against the insinuation con- veyed in the applause of Mr. Dawson, that Ministers entertained the same sentiments in respect to the Irish Church as that gentic man. He noticed the conduct and language of Government in tespeet of the Bishopric of Derry, and in respect of the motion of Sir John Newport on the subject of -First Fruits, as proving that " the damning imputa- tions conveyed in the praise of Mr. Dawson were utterly unfounded." Mr. Sheil concluded by repudiating, with scorn, the doctrine that Church property was not subject to legislative control.
What had the English Government done in Canada? The Secretary for Ireland had been there, and he saw that while a Catholic was subject to tithes, a Protestant was • exempt ; and if the latter bought the property of the former, lie held it discharged from tithes. Did principles depend on the latitude and longitude; and did the Secretary for Ireland consider that to be robbery on the banks of the Shannon, which was only simple justice on the banks of the St. Lawrence? But suppose that the application of tithes could not be legitimately changed—what followed? The Church had plundered the pour—what had become of the poor man's quartz pars: It was 110t SO obsolete a right. It was recognized by the 1st George I. in Ireland. While the distressed clergy excited the sympathy of the Irish Secretary, had he no compassion for the hundreds of thousands of famished houseless and homeless peasantry, to whom, even on the princi- ples of churchmen, restitution should be made ? Let the Committee look to this; and let Government remember that it was fully to think of pacifying Ireland without an utter change in the ecclesiastical system. The axe must be laid to the rout. Take down the golden domes of the establishment in time, or they will till iu the shocks of the moral earthquake with which you are threatened, and bury the whole edifice in ruin. (Loud cheers.) In the House of Lords, the Home Secretary pursued very nearly the same argument, and he quoted the same documents in support of it, that Mr. Stanley did. The Earl of Wmeeow made a furious attack on Dr. Doyle, for the sentiments expressed in his letter on the subject of tithes, tad one still more furious on Mr. O'Connell. He com- plained, that effectual means had not been taken for the suppression of O'Connell's machinations, by renewing the Act against .Associations. He alluded to the presumed negotiations of Government with that celebrated individual, and to their failure, and expressed a hope— Now that the noble Earl found that the apple of discord was as well thrown from under a silk as a stuff gown, and that it was impossible to appease this hungry Cerberus, that lie would have recourse to the Herculean tbree of the law to drive him from the portals of the hell which he was creating in Ireland.
Lord Wicklow also alluded to the recent reconstruction of the Orange Clubs ; and defended it, on the maxim that "where bad men conspire, loyal men must confederate." The new society was a necessary consequence of the National Union; and Lord Wicklow declared, that if affairs remained as they now did, he would .certainly enrol his name as a member.
The Marquis of Ceeeaticanne thought, the fact of Dr. Doyle and Mr. O'Connell's beine's at daggers-drawn, might pacify the alarm which their sentiments seemed to have raised.
Lord ELLENBOItOUGII was opposed to the appointment of a Com- mittee, because it went to remove the responsibility of whatever mea- sure might be ultimately introduced, from Ministers by whom it ought Sir ROBERT PEEL'S observations were almost exclusively limited to a vindication of himself from a hypothetical charge by Mr. Stanley, founded on Sir Robert's speech on the Address, that he must be averse from the appointment of the Committee. On the contrary, he expressed his perfect approbation of the motion. What he contended for was, that the period between the proposal of a remedy of the grievances complained of, and its application, should be as brief as cir- cumstances would permit. Mr. LEADER spoke of the necessity of a more extended inquiry. The revenues of the Irish Church, in tithes and lands, amounted to at least 2,000,0001. per annum ; and this immense sum was paid for the spiritual instruction of about one sixth or one seventh part of a people whose whole rental did not exceed 8,000,000/. ; and who, in addition to the taxes imposed by the Church, were burdened with others in the shape of Government imposts, absentees, and Grand Jury assessments, to the amount of 12,000,0001. Mr Leader said—
in justice to be borne. He was of opinion, that the disinclination to pay tithes was not caused by the form of collection, but by the nature of the thing collected; and he quoted a saying of O'Connell in confir- mation of this view,—" that he hoped the time was not distant when every man would pay his clergyman as he paid his butcher and baker."
Earl GREY replied at length to the several points touched upon by he speakers of the Opposition. The most interesting part of the Premier's reply respected the conduct of Government towards Mr. O'Connell— He did not deny that he and his colleagues were desirous to inlist the energies and influence of Mr. O'Connell on the side of the Government. It was true that a pa- tent of precedence was bestowed upon that gentleman ; but it was equally true that it was a mark of preferment to which his professional reputation fully entitled him. When the energy and business abilities, and above all, the great influence of that gen- tleman in Ireland were considered, it would appear desirable that that energy, and es- pecially that influence, should be employed in the cause of goad order ; and hence it was the wish of Ministers to attach him to the Government. 'The preferment, however, which was bestowed upon Mr. O'Connell, was but due to his professional station : in- deed, were that wentleman's labours as much devoted to the cause of good order as might be desired, there was no legal station in the country to which lie might not fairly aspire. But no official situation was proffered to lam, or, under the relations in which he stood to the Government, could be proffered to him. No offer was made to him of official appointment, which could enable him to say that he rejected it : at least, if there was, Earl Grey was wholly ignorant of it, and lie was sure that none such could have been oftbred that he could sanction. He stated this with something like regret, because the recent conduct of Mr. O'Connell cut off all hope that his energies and influence would be directed in support of the efforts of Government to the improvement and tran- quillity of Ireland.
Earl Grey did not limit his regret to the formation of the National Union, but extended it equally to the Protestant Union; at the same time expressing his opinion, that the existing laws would be found quite sufficient to prevent either party from injuring the peace of the country.
3. CHOLERA. Mr. WARBURTON, on Thursday, in moving for addl.- tional information on the subject of cholera, took occasion to make some remarks on the means of insulating the disease, and thus cutting it off. He said 'Ministers ought, on its first appearance, to have immee diately surrounded the house in which it broke out ; and that failing this, which they had so improperly negleeted, they must now be content to surround the infected district, if they did not desire to see the entire commerce of the country suspended. Mr. I'. THOMSON obsserved, that six or seven days elapsed after the disease broke out before the medical men were agreed as to its nature.. The question of itsimportation.was exeeedingly difficult of solution ; but there was no doubt at all of the fact, that there were no sick on board the vessels which were said to have imported it—the crews were well when they left Ilenthurg, and they were well still. It would have taken 25,01X) or 30,000 men to form a cordon round Sunderland ; and such an assemblage was more likely to cause disease than check it. Sir RICHARD NrY VYAN spoke of the disease as invariably eon-eyed by vessels from one place to another ; while in Egypt, and other places, it had been kept from infecting particular houses, by the phut of isolation.
11Ir. Wenacerox also questioned the fact that quarantine had not been found capable of shutting out cholera, and instanced the Palace in St. Petersburg, which NV;1,: preserved from it by a cordon, though it con- tained from 9,000 to 10.000 indetiduals. Ile explained, that he did not wish a cordon placed round the town of Sunderland, but round the houses ; which there and elsewhere did not amount to 100. The return was granted.
4. _ANATOMY. Abe WeeeenTos: obtained leave on Thursday to introduce a bill for the purpose of procuring a legal supply of subjects for dissection. The bill will differ from the last in greater simplicity of detail. Instead of licensing anatomical theatres, it proposes the appointment of inspectors, who shall make reports of the subjects sup- plied, and from what source, to the Home Secrebuy. No body is to be given for dissection unless where there is no known relation to claim it; aad, as an additional safeguard to the feelings of society, none will lie Si) given, if the person shall, during his lifetime, have given direction,: to the contrary. Mr. Hexr wished for a clause to legalize the sale of a man's body by himself, instead of making it the property of his executors.
Mr. Seinent spoke of the antipathy to dissection as not a prejudice; but a principle that pervaded the whole world, and which could not be eradicated without injuring the best feelings of human nature.
Sir RICHARD 'VYVYAN remarked on the necessity of a clause to ex- empt the bodies of notorious criminals from dissection, and thus to re- move the odium at least from the practice. If it were a prejudice, let those who had surmounted it give their own remains for dissection, as an example. He certeinly wished that something could be done to obtain au adequate supply of subjects, and it was the duty of the Legis• lature to ascertain the best method— In a neighbouring nation, he believed that the feelings to which he alluded had not been maintained so strongly as in this country ; :mil as free trade was in so much vogue, he did not see why it should not be applied to this article, so as to make it one of commerce : ho had no doubt that a good number might be imported in the winter, months.
5. CANTON FACTORY. Lord ELLENBOROUGH, on Wednesday, moved for certain copies of correspondence connected with the late negotia- tions between the Factory at Canton and the Government, and East India Company. He mu:Ahmed the two announcements of the Fac- tory of the 20th Moy and 10th June; the former suspending, the latter reviving the intercourse with the Chinese, which have excited so much interest in consequence of their bearing- upon the present tea sale. Lord Ellenborough also spoke of a paper lately published at Macao, in which the Chinese Goverment was held up as venal, corrupt, and oppressive ; and of a petition to the House of Commons got up at Macao, in which the same sentiments were embodied, and in both of which the armed interference of the mother country was invoked. The newspaper and the petition were translated, and sent to Pekin ; and Lord Ellenborough thought, that by such imprudences, great danger might accrue to the trade generally—the revenue might suffer severely —the East India Company might lose their profits, and the bond- holders their interest ; to say nothing- of other evils that might arise froin a suspension of traffic between the Chinese empire and this country. Earl GREY said, there was no disinclination to furnish Lord Ellen- borough with whatever information he required, on a subject of ac- knowledged importance ; but it was not at present ill such a form as admitted of its production. The Company were in the habit of attend- ing more especially to the trade with China and its management, —the chief object of the Board of Control being India ; and the despatches which brought the last inmotuncement alluded to by Lord Ellenborough had only arrived a few days ago, and had not as yet been fully consi- dered by the Directors. There was not the slightest intention of armed interference on the part of the Company, nor would the Govern- ment sanction any interference that was not called for by justice and necessity. Under these circumstances, Lord ELLENROROUGH consented to with... draw his motion.
6. PORTUGAL. In the House of Lords, last night, the Earl of ABERDEEN alluded to a story which appeared in the Liverpool Journal, respecting the iulistment, by agents of Don Pedro, at Liverpool, of number of persons there, and their intended conveyance to Belleisle* by the Marley War-office Steam-packet. He also alluded to a case which had appeared in the London journals, of an application of some sailors at the Thames Police-office for assistance, of which they stood. in need, from their being disappointed in being sent out of the count', by some agents of Don Pedro. Two hundred, it appeared, had sailed: and the applicants, forty in number, had been left behind. Lord Aberdeen went on to observe, that ever since the Speech from the Throne had been pronounced, these inlistments had gone briskly on; and he wished to know, under such circumstances, whether the Fore** Inlistment Act was to be looked on as existing, or whether it had been tacitly abrogated ? Whatever might be the character of Dont Pedro, he was in England but a private individual, and had no right tat- violate the law more than any other indiuidual. After some genera; remarks on the Portuguese question, '.Lord Aberdeen called on Ear& Grey to state what distinction there existed between the case of Don Pedro and other attempted infractions of the Foreign Inlistment Act. .Earl GREY said, he would not go into the question of Portuguese relations, although it was evidently the wish of Lord Aberdeen to lead him into it. While the Foreign Inlistment Act was the law of the land, he would maintain it ; but he could not allow, on the assumption of Lord Aberdeen, that it bad been violated. As to the case of the Thames Police-office, he knew nothing of it ; but there was no such War-office packet as the Bluyney, nor indeed any War-office packet at all. So far front Government winking at any evasion of the Foreign inlistment Act, they had seized some vessels engaged by Don Pedro, and only released them because they had no legal ground of detention. In respect to the inlistment of men by Dun Pedro's agents, they had found also that they had no legal grounds on which to interfere.
7. Russia's LOAN. A conversation took place last night on this sub- ject, arising out of a question put by Sir ROBERT Pasa.—whether 'Mi- nisters intended to continue the payments under the treaty of 1814, or not? Lord ALTHORP answered, that they did ; and Sir THOMAS Dassi.sx stated, that on a full consideration of the whole case, lie had come to the conclusion, not merely that the payment was equitable, but that it was according to the strict letter of law.
8. BUSINESS or THE HOUSE. Alderman Woon has introduced a bill to regulate the speed of Steam-packets in the port of London; the same which was introduced last session. The LORD A ovocaTE has introduced a bill to abolish the Scotch Court of Exchequer, which was lost by the prorogation last session. Mr. HoDoEs has an act to amend the law relating to Common Sewers ; and Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE an act to amend the law of last session relating to Select Vestries. Mr. FRESIIIIELD has reintroduced his bill for amending the Bankrupt Act. A bill to enable Collegiate and Ecclesiastical Corporations to exchange Inds has been introduced by Mr. GREENE. Bills to consolidate and amend the Irish Jury Laws and to amend the Irish Subletting Act have been introduced by Mr. STANLEY and Mr. CRAMPTON. Mr. SADLER has introduced his Bill to regulate the hours of Labour for Children employed in factories. Mr. BERTRAM EVANS has moved for several returns connected with the Newspaper-tax ; and Alderman VENABLES for the papers connected with the notorious case of Leaf and Co. Mr. Poumert THOMSON moved, on Thursday. for the revi- val of the Select Committee on West Indian affairs: the Votes de- scribed it as on East Indian affidrs. On Thursday, the distresses of the glove trade were brought before the House, on the presentation of a petition by Colonel Dams. Mr. PROTHEROE has a notice of mo- tion, after the recess, for a bill to amend the municipality of Bristol. Mr. PERCEVAL'S General Fast motion is postponed until the same period; as are the various Bills introduced by Mr. J. CAMPBELL, including the Registry Bill. Sir JOHN NEWPORT Will again, on the 23d February, move the House respecting Irish First Fruits. There are other notices on the Votes, but these are the chief.
9. ADJOURNMENT. The House of Lords, at its rising last night, adjourned to the 17th of January. The House of Commons will to-night adjourn to the same day. The day of reassembling has been postponed for a week later than was originally intended, to suit the convenience of the Irish Members.