20 JUNE 1840, Page 2

Dailies anti iproretbinns in Vat !lament.


The House of Commons, on Monday, was crowded with Members, many of whom could not obtain seats. It was expected that a severe party struggle would ensue. When the time for public business arrived,

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to state the course he had resolved to take. He thought that the convenience of the House had been consulted by the arrangement which gave to Ministers precedence for public busi- ness on certain days of the week. Lord Stanley had announced his intention to disregard that arrangement, and to substitute a motion of his own for the Orders of the Day. Now, Lord John submitted, that this course was not only unusual, but inconvenient, and. certainly not ; Conservative— If such a precedent should obtain—if the course of their proceedings were to be thus interrupted by the motions of individuals belonging to the party of the Opposition—no surer mode could be devised for embarrassing, he would not say I this Govermnent, but any Government which was intrusted with the 1 deuce of the Crown 1hr the purpose of carrying on the business of the nation. I Ile therefore thought it right to declare frankly at once, that he should persist in moving the Order of the Day ; and that he should resist any motion fiw substituting the consideration of any other measure for those of the Govern- ment which now formed part of the Order of the Day.

But at the same time, as he should have insisted upon precedence for the English Registration Bill had Mr. Wood's motion been carried, he thought it but filar, as the House had decided against that motion, that Lord Stanley's bill should be placed in the same position as his own bill would have occupied had Mr. Wood's motion been sustained by a ma- jority : anel he therefore proposed, that either on Thursday, Friday, or Monday, the House should go into Committee on Lord Stanley's Bill. He should be prepared to discuss the merits of the bill in Committee.

Lord STAN:A.:sr defended the unusual course be had taken, on the ground that he was placed in unusual circumstances. At the same time, he maintained, that his course was neither unconstitutional, nor unparlia- mentary, nor violent. It was, on the contrary, the course expressly pointed out by the Order of the House, as the only one open to a Member uncon- nected with the Government for bringing forward measures supported by a considerable majority against the Government. There was no claim of right to precedence on the part of the Government. As to the proposition now made, he had received no intimation that it would have been offered to him, or he should not have announced his determination to press his bill that night. He was satisfied with the arrangement ; and, as Thurs- day might be inconvenient, would name Friday or 3Ionday, whichever Lord John Russell preferred.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, since Lord Stanley objected to take Thurs- day, the earliest day, he should name Friday. He would not himself offer any obstruction to the Committee ; and he made it his request to others to follow his example.

Mr. O'CONNELL would not stand in the way of the proposed arrange- ment— Ile knew that that was a concession ; and if he made a concession of any part of his extreme right, he should upon any future occasion avail himself' of that right in its fullest extent against a bill which was calculated, and he believed intended, to injure and insult the people of Ireland.

It was then agreed to go into Committee on Friday.


On Monday, Lord Jolts: Russm.r. having moved the second reading of the Clergy Reserves Bill, Mr. GouLnens: stated that he should not oppose the second reading ; being unwilling to have it supposed that the House was not unanimous on a measure which was to be contemporaneous with the bill for the reunion of the Canadas. He objected, however, to many of the details ; which he hoped would be amended in Committee.

Mr. Gar.mr KNIGHT, with great reluctance, would allow the bill to pass the next stage ; but he thought that the Clergy Reserves ought to be divided among the clergy of the Established Churches of England and Scotland and the Wesleyan Methodists.

Sir ROBERT Isoms contended, that the law was explicit, which gave the Reserves to the clergy of the Protestant Episcopal Church ; and Parliament had no more right to touch them than to seize on the pro- perty of the Municipality of Montreal. The bill not only included Catholics Co nomine, but even those who could not be denominated Christians: He trusted the House would not recognize the principle of this measure.

Mr. HusiE approved of the sale of the Reserves, but not of the pro. posed distribution of the proceeds. The almost universal feeling in Canada was in favour of devoting the entire fund to the purpose of educating the whole people, without distinction of sect or faith. The people of Canada wished for the Voluntary priiheiple as upheld in the neighbouring States of America.

Sir GEORGE CLERIC had no fitult to find with that part of the bill which allocated a proportion of the fund to the Church of Scotland ; but he protested against other sects sharing in the fund, or being mixed up with the Established Clergy of England and Scotland.

Mr. KEMBLE objected not only to the details, but to the principle of the bill; and if Sir Robert Inglis would divide the House, he should have his vote.

Lord JOHN Russmr. enumerated reasons why the bill ought to pass— The property to which the bill applied had been much neglected, and the re• venues derived from it were very small. But whilst it was productive of so little in a pecuniary point of view, it had been a fertile source of dissension and division. It was most desirable, therefore, that the question should be settled in such a manner as would tend most immediately to the promotion of religious instruction, and a final adjustment of all the points that hitherto, unfortu- nately, had given rise to so many differences. The present Governor-General stated that if the Imperial Parliament did not proceed at once to settle this question, the consequence would be, (such as it had hitherto been,) that when- ever there was a general election in the Province, the question of the Clergy Reserves would again become the subject of a great contention, and that can- didates, who would not perhaps otherwise be chosen, would obtain the support of the majority of the constituency, by expressing their concurrence in that which was the opinion of a great body of the population, that these Reserves should be taken away, not merely from the clergy of the Church of England, but from the clergy of every religious denomination whatever. The question in the United Legislature of the two Provinces would then be, not whether the Church of England should possess one-fourth of these reserves, and the Church of Scotland another fourth, but whether they, the United Legislature, should recognize the maintenance of any for the support of an established religion. It was, he thought, most desirable to prevent such a question being brought before the United Legislature in the first year of its assembling. It was mast desirable that the measures adopted by that United Legislature should be such as the Imperial Legislature could assent to : hut above all, it was desirable that no step should be taken by the United Provincial Legislature upon this ques- tion of the Clergy Reserves, in which the Imperial Parliament could not he deemed a IlleaSellsrseenstillarntoe press a ready concurrence. For this reason, that now under the consideration of the house absolutely deemed it necessary for a proper and permanent settlement of the question: were to say that we would consent to settle it only in such a way as for it was tO be borne in numb that if, in proposing to settle the matter, we should be utterly repugnant to the feelings find wishes of the Canadian people—if we were to say that we would settle it only according to our notions of what was due to the Church of Englund in England, and to the Church of Scotland in Scotland—it' we were to apply this iirinciple to the Canadas without anv re- ference to the wishes and feelings of the Canadian peo.ple, then that whicli we called a settlement in name would not be a settlement in fact, but a new source of discontent, dissension, and complaint against the Mother-country. These therefore, were the general reasons that induced the Government to propose a measure of' this nature; and these were the principles by which the Govern- ment would be guided when they came to discuss the details of the bill in Committee.

Mr. PAICINC.TON considered this the worst bill 'which Governor Thomson had sent over from Canada. The Church needed all the re- sources she possessed in Canada, and an addition to them— Ile had flue authority of' the Bishop of the Lower Province when he stated that the religious destitution in the city of Montreal was very great. Ile had the authority of the Bishop of Toronto when he said that Upper Canada stood in need of at least one hundred additional clergymen to supply the wants of the existing population. That population was annually increasing; and if the overn men t succeeded in restoriug liaci qiuiliifv, emigration would also increase. They were bound, therefore, to take the spiritual wants of these emigrants as Nve11 as of the resident population into their calculation. Acconling to cer- tain returns he found the numbers of' perS0118 belonging to the Church of England stated at 80,000, while those belongiug to the Established. Church of Scotland were not 40,000. Taking into account the Seceders from the Church of Scotland of all denominations, -the Presbyterians in Canada did not exceed 70,000. On what principle of justice, then, was an equal share of the Clergy Reserves apportioned to these two churches.

It had been said by Mr Hume that the air of America was ungenial to Church Establishments— Mr. Hums:—" So it is." (Great laughter.) Mr. PAKINCTON—" A more absurd, ridiculous, and untenable doc- trine, I never heard."

Mr. Linot:en hind enjoyed an opportunity of ascertaining the opinions of a great ninny persons, of all shades of politics, respecting this bill ; and, with the single exception of Chief Justice Robinson, lie had not met with one who did not say—" For God's sake, do not look upon this subject with English but with Canadian eyes." He con- sidered the bill as a compromise— It did not please the Ii igh Chute,' party ; it alit not ;dense the zealots for the Voluntary principle ; but he fold the Effuse that it pleased the great Ma- jority of the respectable people of that country, and was approved of by the ,great body of the members of the Church of England in Canada, who believed that this settlement would be a most advantageous bargain for that church. He was an attached member of' the Church of England, ant he would be sorry if the House Aiould forego the sanctioning of the present measure.

Those Members who thought an Established Church ought to be endowed without reference to the feelings of the people of Canada, were consistent in opposing the bill. Such was the °pillion of Sir Robert Inghis; whose sincevity he did not question, but he hoped he should himself receive equal credit for sincerity—

The country had no more sacred duty than that one of encouraging religion, but it conk' not do II, more unadvisable act than to attempt to force a religion

on any of our Colonic, It was a principle that was at work in every colony; but he warned the House, that if they were prepared to act on the principles of the honourable 'Member for (Wind, they would shake the vast Colonial env. Ore of this country to its foundation. They were not principles suited for the government of any country pissessing a mighty empire; having under its sway persons of all creeds, and of VarIODS rcsecs: they. were never the principles of any nation holding extensive empire over mankind—the " impernan maiden impulortan," as Cicero styles it. Nor were they principles for such a country as England. When this question was debated m Int, it was stated by Mr. Pitt, when he introduced his measure on this subject, that its provisions were open for future revision by the Lcgislature. The debate was thrum conducted by great men—by Burke, Pitt, and Fox. They took large and philosophical views compared to the miserable points that were now made in that Douse. Mr. Pitt was a man who looked to circumstances-

" Non mumhhmh res, sod me !Amu:, subjungere coner."

Whitt were Mr. Burke's views on this subject ? " Take care," said he, "in legislating for the Canadas that they see nothing on the other side of the boundary to render them i'lliscontented with the institutions that have been given them :" and Mr. Labouchere warned the Douse of Commons not to be led away by any abstract principle, so as to force on that colony institutions in. in imitation ofthose of the Mother-country.

He had a statement to make respecting the property of the monastery

of St. Sulpice. An arrangement had been made satisfactory to all par- ties, and advantageous to the inhabitants of Montreal. He thought that the House ought to regard the Roman Catholic settlers in Canada with favour—

The honourable gentleman was exceedingly alarmed that the Catholics lucid

been put on the same footing with the Protestants. Mr. Labouchere would be extremely sorry if the provision made in the bill did not receive the sanction of the House. It ivas the principle which the Government had acted upon in other Colonies, and especially in Australia, where it had been found to be at- tended with the most advantageous effects ; and he thought, under the present circumstances of Canada, it would be most inexpedient to depart from that principle. Daring the late unfortunate disturbances in that country, he had. been assured by the highest authorities, and he believed it to be most true, that hi the province of Upper Canada, not one Roman Catholic joined in the re- bellion there, and in the province of Lower Canada not one Irish Roman Catholic joined the rebels; not only did they not join the rebels, but in truth the zeal and loyalty evinced by that portion of her Majesty's subjects were inset fervent and most exemplary. Ile had seen the despatches from the

Governors of the two Provinces, stating this most credible fact ; and he certtunlY should regret the House doing any thing that might be considered as an insult towards that class of' her Majesty's subjects.

ESTCOURT, Mr. Sergeant Imam, Mr. PRINGLE, and Lord 'Nit:riming', all declared against the principle of the bill.

Mr. GLADSTONE protested against adopting in the British Parliament the i

principles which prevailed n Canada respecting Church Establish- ments, if these principles were such as they had been represented that night He was willing to read the bill a second time, with a view to distribute•the proceeds of the land-sales in conformity with the Act of 1791, which gave them to the Protestant clergy. That distribution had not yet been made, but it ought to be made. There was a still more important reason why the bill ought to be read a second time— lie understood that the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of Lon- don who were empowered by law to act for the Colonial Church in these mat- ters, and who possessed the confidence of that Church, had shown a ivillingness to facilitate the settlement of this question by the cession of a part or those extreme rights to which, under the Aet of 1761, they considered themselves en- titled. Ile would jilt it to Lord doltn Itas,e11, whether it was not desirable, before they went to a division, that they should know what had been the pro- position submitted to the noble Lord by those Prelates, and whether it was likely to meet with his acquiescome. Ile hoped that the reasons which he had urged would induce honourable Members on that side ofthe llouse to abstain from going to a division . I fnot on those grounds,then on theground ofthe misehielw hilt a premature division on the question would do to the cause which they had so much at heart, let t hem abstain. The country ought to see that a harmony of feeling prevailed on that side of the House on this subject, that the power of modifying possessed by them was exercised upon this bill. By exhibiting themselves in scanty numbers in the face of the country, they would not repre- seat the true measure of the attachment of that House to the interests of the Church of Canada.

Lord JOHN Resszi.t. stated the substance of the proposition made to hint by the Primate on the subject of the Reserves—

As he understood that proposition, it was, that as regarded the one-fourth

already sold, and the proceeds of which were vested in this country, the whole of that amount should he considered as belonging to the Church of England; that of the remaining three-fourths, one-half should be considered as belonging to the Church of England; and that with regard to the other half of those three-fourths, the Prelates at the head of the English Church would not oh- ject to such a proposition as Government, on consideration, might suggest ; but that with regard to all that which should belong to the Church of Eng. land, it should he for the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel to decide whether it should be sold or kept. In short, it was proposed to leave it entirely to them to hold it or to dispose of the income of it.

Mr. GrAnsroNE was quite satisfied.

Sir Romer INGLIS divided the House against the bill. The numbers were—

For the second reading 152 Against it

Iliajority 117


Lord JOHN RUSSELL, on Thursday, reminded the House of his pro- mise to take into consideration the suggestions of Sir Robert Peel and Mr. Ellice for the alteration of the Canada Government Bill. He had to state, that he had arrived at the conclusion that it was desirable to make the Civil List a charge upon the Consolidated Puna of the Pro- vinces, before any debts which might in future be contracted. He could. not adopt another suggestion for the establishment of a Chamber of Commerce. He had decided to adopt Mr. Ellice's suggestion and omit all the clauses relative to District Councils ; for he found great difficulty in limiting the powers of these bodies in the manner that was desirable. It was intended, however, to retain the clause which enabled the Governor-General to constitute townships in those parts of the Canadas where there were none at present. By agreeing to these alterations, something perhaps might be lost, but he thought the Canadas would gain infinitely more by the general agreement of the House.

Mr. Humg knew it was useless to offer opposition to any measure of the Government connected with the Colonies, whatever it might be : but he regretted that so much good was to be taken out of the bill, and the people of Canada were to be deprived in a great degree of local self-government. He thought a general amnesty should be granted before the bill passed ; and he wished to know whether the Habeas Corpus Act was still suspended in Canada, and whether the state pri- soners had been set free?

Lord JOHN Rossi-:Li: believed that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act continued ; but when the act for suspending it expired, it would not be renewed. The prisoners he believed, lied been released.

Sir CHARLES GREY disapproved of the omission of the District clauses ; but, for the sake unanimity, requested Mr. Hume not to divide the House. Sir Charles thought there would be a majority thoroughly British in the United Legislature—a matter much to be desired.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, he should vote to pass the bill ; though he regretted that his suggestion of a Chamber of Commerce, to be com- posed of persons of different polities, and having sonic weight in the Legislature, had not been adopted. He should have wished also that a greater preponderance had been given to British interests. He thought that local bodies with defined powers of taxation would be better appointed by the Canadians themselves than by the Imperial Parlia- ment. He remarked, that it was somewhat strange they should be called upon to pass the bill on the same day that additional correspond ence from Canada was laid upon the table. There was one despatch, dated 28th May, in reply to one from Mr. Poulett Thomson, dated in April ; yet this April despatch was not produced till they had arrived at the last stage of the bill. He admitted, however, that the additional correspondence supplied additional reasons for passing the bill. He found tit, t Sir George Arthur concurred with him in the opinion that there never was "a more auspicious moment for carrying the Union into effect."

Sir THOMAS COCHRANE feared that this bill would be the virtual de- claration of the independence of Canada. Mr. Homo said, he should not divide the House, if Lord John Russell Would accompany his bill with a despatch recommending the United Legislature to establish District Councils. The bill then passed. CHURCH-EXTENSION.

Sir ROBERT Ixous, on Monday, gave notice that lie should on Tues- day move that the House shall go into Committee on the 1st of July to consider an address to the Queen praying her Majesty to take mea- sures for supplying the wants of the Church.

Mr. Husio gave notice, that he should move an amended address, calling her Majesty's attention to the property already possessed by the Church.

On Tuesday, there were only thirty-four Members present at four o'clock ; and there was consequently " no House," and. Sir Robert Inglis's motion could not conic on.

On Wednt - lay, Sir Ilonrdir INCITS gave notice, that be should call the attentioa ei' the Nouse to time subject of Church-extension, on Tuesday the aoth instant.

On Thursday, Sir .1.‘str.s GRAHAM noticed a statement in the Morn- icj ,,r Wo'cle:.(lay, that he had stationed himself in the Lobby on Tuesday rci ii.evelt Members from attending to make a House on Sir Robert :e.eion. This was untrue— It so happened ou that day, that he was in attendance on the Committee upon Banks of Issue. the certainly (lid not immediately obey the summons cc the Speaker ; but on the point of flaw o'clock, he was proceading to the House, when he was informed that the I louse had hem cm:litchi:lid tied there not be- ing a sufficient number of1lemli.rs, the Sp.:II:LI' had not .;:ikeo the Chair. 11e immediately returned to the Conunittee•reiro and told the lionourable 11 .oher

fiw it ihIport what had occurred. Ile woulii nut have noticed the statement: that leal publiihed, if that morning there had not been tm aggravation of

the tn:serti.m. It was stated in the Jbwitiity Chrunivir, that it was true lie was not in the I.obby that day at the thne the How:. proceeded to prayers ; but that tiicse r'.'S Oa equivocation in his d• mach as he had prc- tztken 11:1.:111,, for preventing a House Ling binned, lie need not re-

peat, hat Farb einabler appeared to him to lw Ii Iv unbecoming and offensive ; and in the most positive terms Ile begged to be ye} mitteil to ifeny that he di- rectly or indirecily influenced any one Member out the subject.

Mr. Ws itnneros confirmed Sir James Graham's stateineut.

Sir CHARLES Bultal:LL could make allowance for the mistakes of newspapers, but a misstatement twice made ought wit to be passed over Without animadversion.

Coux.er CossastneLany.

The I rouse deeided on Thursday, by a vote of 103 to 39, to go into

Ceo on the Idll for establishing an effleient Police force in Conn- Cos. The groat expense it would entail on counties was the chief ob- joetion to this measure ; its supporters idleging its absolute necessity to cheek the increase of' offences against property and the person. There only one division in the Committee : General JOIINSON 1110VCd ti reject the eleventh clause, under which eonstaliles might claim super- annuation-allowances : the clause was retained, by ;ca to 13. Some verbal amendments were made, and the Coinmittee rose.


Sir Janos (Mathis!, on Tuesday, meved the order of the day flit- the further consideration of the Vaccination Bill in Committee. Mr. Wakley had introduced a bill to prevent inoculation ; which went fur- the r than the present bill ; butt, Sir James proposed, as the most con- venient mode of proceeding, that Mr. IN'akiey should substitute his own measure by way of amendment.

Mr. Wsehs:v ie,istial upon the importance of stopping inoculation, and moved an ameadmeut to consider in Committee " the Smallpox Prevention Bill."

Mr. Cuavos; lIntucEtEy seconded the amendment ; and called atten- tion to the condition of Dr. Jenner's descendants— Dr. demotes received from the Honse for his discovery two grants of money, one amounting to 20,000/., the other to 10,000/. The family or the man who had conferred this lasting benefit upon his country was at that moment in thstitution. Otte of his two nephews, the Reverend G. ;Fenner, had a curacy of 110/. a year, on which he was obliged to support himself and a family of ten children : the other po-sessed an allowance only of half a guinea a week, which he inherited from his illustrious uncle.

Mr. Waenemerox and Mr. WOOD supported Mr. Wakley's amend- ment Mr. Gotamunx, Mu'. LUCAS, and Sir FnenEnteic TRENCH spoke on the other side. The House divided, and rejected the amendment, by 56 to :39.

In Committee, twelve clauses were disposed of; and the Chairman reported progress. • CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.

In the House of Lords, on Tuesday, the Earl of ABERDEEN moved the second reading of the Church of Scotland Benefices Bill. He stated his conviction that if the existing dissensions in the Church of Scotland were to be terminated in a manner at all consistent with the preservation of the Establishment, it must be by some measure founded on the principles of his bill. He felt the greatest satisfaction with the reception the measure had met with in Scotland— It had been received with satisfaction by a large body of the clergy, and by the most exemplary and enlightened of' the Idly. Not a day passed in which he did not receive the most urgent entreaties from all parts of the ...,ontry to forward the measure without delay. But it was undoubtedly true that the General Assembly laud taken a less favourable view of it, The Marquis of' Breadalbane had askyd lam the other day if it was his intention to persevere in this measure after the declaration of the majority of the General Assembly against it ; and he had also stated, that an honourable gentleman had made the declaration to a reverend divine, a leader of the Assembly, that, in the event of there being a vote adverse to this tal'agare, he would abandon the bill. lie begged to tell the noble Marquis that he had not authorized any gentleman to make any such declaration. The objections of the General Assembly were so monstrous and unheard of, that none of their Lordships would agree to them, whatever might be their own objections to the hill. guard against abuse of their power, by providing that reasons for the re- jection of a presentee must be stated. The bill did not in any way interfere with existing laws—

He had the authority of the most eminent professional men ; he had both the opinion of the highest authority on the bench end of the distinguished lawyer

WILL) had lately become an ornament to the bench, that there was nothing in the bill contrary to existing statutes, and that, under the statutes by which the Church of Scotland was constituted and established, the Church Courts might exercise all the powers given them by this bill.

He should really like to know what Lord Melbourne meant to do with this question—

He really must beg the noble Viscount not merely to put his veto on the measure, but to condescend to state to the House what were his reasons for opposing it. If, in the words of Lord Brougham, he meant not to stir until the existing law was first obeyed, then let the noble Viscount take some steps to entbree the law. Let him not forget that by the Westminster Confession of Faith, to which the majority of the Scotch Chime!' assented, it was admitted as a principle that the Civil Magistrate might interfere to preserve the internal peace and harmony of the Church. In the absence of any declaration of Lord Melbourne's intentions, he could only assume them from the report of the Non- Intrusion Committee presented to the General Assembly. They stated that they had submitted the question of the Veto and the Call to the Government ; but that, after eight months' repeated postponement, they had only a few weeks ago received ;to answer, to the effect that, as the Government could not hope to pass any measure through the House of Lords, they would postpone legislation on the subject until some time when there were greater probabilities of success. He did n he ot sec how t nob le Viscount was justified in assuming that he would not be able to pass a measure through the House of Lords. He, for one, would have been most ready to accede to any measure likely to effect a settlement, provided it were consistent with the law of the land.

Lord MELBOURNE denied that lie had used the words attributed to him in the Assembly's Report.

Lord ABERDEEN entirely believed Lord Melbourne. The authors of that Report bad been so miscrupulous with respect to himself, that he was quite prepared to believe they bad not been more honest in their communications with Lord Melbourne.

Lord MELnotTnem—" I do not mean to say that of them."

Lord ABERDEEN-" At all events the noble Viscount must do some- thing in regard to this question "-

He could not continue to sit on that bench and chuckle inwardly at the con- fusion and distraction which prevailed in Scotland on this subject, exclaiming, with the old anarch, " Havoc. and spoil, and min are my He (the Earl of Almrdeen) had tendered to Lord Melbourne a measure which he thought would produce a settlement. He had offered the measure without the slightest party feeling, and he had only taken up the question at n11 when the Government refused to interfere, lie could inform the noble Viscount, that unless some measure of settlement was immediately adopted, a most la-

mentable schism would occur in Scotland. A large body.. of the most respect- able ministers of the Church of Scotland would, by an open and public declar- ation, announce their determination not to obey the ordinance of the General Assembly. He entreated the noble Viscount, it' he valued the interests of the established religion, to do something towards settling the question.

The Marquis of BREADALRANE called upon the House to pause be- fore they assented to this bill. Ile rejoiced that Lord Aberdeen had

given his adhesion to the principle of Non-Intrusion and the indepen- dence of the Church of Scotland ; but in the application of this prin- ciple, in the mode and in the w he widely differed from Lord Aberdeen. In fact, the details di not carry out flue principle. That was the opinion of the General Assembly. The Legislature might establish a church by law, but it would not be, as at present was the case, a church deeply established in the hearts of the people. He moved that the bill be read n second time that day six mouths.

The Earl of RosEnEnnv could not deny that the adherence of the Church of Scotland to the principle which the General Assembly pro- claimed might be attended with very serious consequences ; but if the Church was conscientiously of opinion that it was a fundamental prin- ciple of Presbyterianism, and one drawn from Scripture, they ought not to be debarred from asserting and abiding by it. The great difficulties which Lord Aberdeen bad encountered, had satisfied him that Lord Melbourne acted wisely in declining at present to bring forward any measure on the responsibility of' Government. He believed that Lord Aberdeen's Bill would be worse than inoperative or innocuous—it would add to the existing difficulty and discontent. He was of opinion himself that the majority of the people of Scotland concurred with the General Assembly.

The Earl of CAMPERDOWN was prepared to support the amendment, but not for the reasons which induced the Marquis of Breadalbane to

propose it. It was impossible, after hearing Lord Broughtun's judg- ment on the Auchterarder case, not to be aware that the General Assembly were in the wrong. But the Assembly refused to obey the

decision of the House, and thus wilfully violated the law. Now, it would he giving way to them, and in SOMC sort sanctioning their pro- ceedings, were the House to pass this bill. He thought the Assembly were acting most foolishly, and putting the Established Church in peril. He contended that no legislative interference was required, as the Courts of Law had already sufficient authority in the case.

The Earl of DALHOUSIE had been an office-bearer in the Church of Scotland, and being convinced of the necessity of the bill, lind wil-

lingly contributed his assistance in bringing it forward. Up to the year 1834, the principle of Non-Intrusion, without reasons assigned, had never been contended for. By the Book of Discipline its existence was distinctly denied. The practice of the Church of Geneva, the mother- church of the Church of Scotland, did not sanction it. Lord Dalhousie quoted the authority of eminent divines of the Church of Scotland in

support of his argument. The agitation against the bill was a cle- rical agitation. Ile could show that public opinion was not with the Vetoists-

It was supposed in England that the General Assembly was a mirror of public opinion, but that body did not represent public opinion. Even in a former Assembly his own proposition was rejected only by a majority of 37 : true it was that the majority hail now risen to 87, but he could easily explain that. Among the majority of the supporters of the Veto, however, in the Ge- neral Assembly, there were many who would gratefully receive the bill upon their Lordships table. It was party feeling alone that opposed it ; it was party feeling that marred on many occasions the civil government of the Church of Scotland; and upon this question it was a party feeling that he had

never seen equalled. Still, to show the

some facts. In the Town-Council of the city of Edinburgh, i real state of public opinion, n he ml precedent and of authority, the Lord Provost and his colleague in the comet s for seats in the Assembly were defeated by 28 to 8, the two rejected eandi dates voting in the minority ; the Lord Provost being of course for the Veto. In East Lothian, at the Veto meeting, the number of Magistrates and pie:

prictors at the meeting concurring was 8 ; but at the Anti-Veto meeting, the Magistrates and pmprretors attending and concurring was 44 ; the clergy ivere nearly equal, but the mnjority of the occupants were'Anti-Vetoists. Again,

Aberdeen, the Anti-Veto petition was carried by a majority of 100 to 5. So much for the state of public opinion in Scotland. True it was that there were

many petitions in favour of Non-Intrusion ; but lie appealed to noble Lords who had presented those petitions, whether they did pray for the Veto? Many petitions prayed for Non-Intrusion, but very few for the Veto. And further, it must be recollected how these petitions were got up. Emissaries were sent into parishes, and those who took the petitions rotund not unfrequentiv asked- " Would you like to see a minister put into the pulpit at the head Of a troop of dragoons ? If you do not, then sign this petition ; " and many of the peti- tions were signed by women, and even by children in the nursery. Admitting, however, that the majority of the people wanted Non-intrusion, he must yet assert, they wanted the Non-Intrusion of the Relbrmation, not the Non-Intru- sion of 1834—the Non-Intrusion of John Knox, not the Non-Intrusion of Dr. Chalmers. In the late election for the county of Perth, the Veto was made the cherta de Width!, and it was rather a question of l'eto or No Veto than of Whig or Toly : the clergy canvassed and spoke for the Veto. But at the end of the first day's poll, the Anti-Vetoist was returned by a majority four times as large as any of his predecessors on the same aide. Again, there were seventy :newspapers in Scotland, and of these five only supported the Veto, whilst sixty-five were opposed to it. He did not mean to say that newspapers were always the representatives of public opinion, but in the main they dis. covered pretty well what that opinion was. Such was the state of public opi- nion in Scotland ; it was any thing but unanimous in support of the Assembly,

The question now was, whether the bill gave sufficient security for what he wished to see established, " the imposition of godly ministers on an ungodly people "— He believed that it would : he believed that under the bill it would be impos. sible for the patrons to intrude upon the 'congregations an improper minister; and that it secured the real principle of Non-Intrusion, as the Elders of the Church in the early ages had explained it, and as laid down by Calvin, and Beek and Melville, and John Knox, lie bad purposely avoided all reference to what was now going on in Scotland : he regretted the censure that had been so generally cast on the Church, though he objected to the last proceedings of the Assembly, and the conduct of many of the clergy. For his own part, he felt on this sub- ject as strongly as any one : he could not but recollect that he was a member of the Church or Scotland, that he was still an office-bearer within her pale, that Ile had been nursed in her bosom, and that he desired to die in her tams; and though he could not but censure the language that had been held against those in the Church who thought differently from him, still he would always en- deavour to thwart them in their unjustifiable pretensions, and in the principle put forward by the noble Marquis.

Lord MELBOURNE said, it would take him hut a few minutes to ex- plain the very clear opinion Ile held on this question. Ho had thanked Lord Aberdeen for undertaking to bring forward a measure for settling it, and was perfectly sincere in those thanks ; and no taunts about re- ceiving a measure front his opponent should prevent him from support- ing a proposition calculated to effect a satisfsctory settlement. But he saw no reason to expect such a result from the measure which Lord Aberdeen had introduced—

Lord Aberdeen said that he had been told in private, and that be had re- ceived mttny letters, coming from various parties, testifying the great approba- tion which they entertained for the measure, and the great anxiety they felt that he should proceed with it. Lord Dalhousie had also told them that many members of the Assembly had. expressed their approbation of the measure. Now, Lord Aberdeen had had great experience of political affairs, and there. fore lie had no right to speak to him in the language of admonition ; but Lord Dalhousie had not had so much experience, mid he mad it.ssure him that there was nothing so little to he trusted as those private communications, or opinions, or statements, in regard to what support might be ultimately expected front those who made them. Ile could assure the noble Loud, that of all those per- sons in the General Assembly whose hearts he said were in that measure, there was not one upon whose public support of this measure hereafter he could rely. It was impossible to rely upon any thing but the real expression of public oi?inion upon such questions as this. It appeared to him, that if the General Assembly did not like this measure before the present discussion, they wnuld not like it any the better after the speeches of Lord Aberdeen and Lord Dalhousie.

He cautioned the Muse against sanctioning a bill, by reading it a second time, without any assurance or even probability of its answering the ends for which it was introduced—

/le thought it prudent to pause upon this question. lie thought it prudent at present unquestionably—not seeing his way before him—at least not to pro- ceed in this course. The nohle Lord asked, " What will you do?" He was not prepared to say what he would ; but he was prepared to say what he would not do; that was, not to adopt this bill. The noble Lord said," You

must do something." "Now, my Lords, there is no lanaunge in the world that I am more afraid of than flint. ( Great laughter.) IC is the cause of every error; and I for one, who have experienced its anger, have made an unalter- able resolution which is—never again to say that -I will do something until 1 have settled what it is that I shell do." (Laughter.) The Earl of ITaDorsoTox remarked, that Lord Melbourne had exhi- bited his usual dexterity in delivering a speech of the usual leugill without saying any thing— The whole argument of his noble friend was, that they ought not to legis- late at all upon -the subject until they could introduce a measure which should

be satisfactory to all parties. If they were not to legislate upon a question that

was dividing the Church of Scotland into hostile parties, until some treasure could be devised that should give satisfaction to all parties, the Church itself would totter to its &IL Ile defied Inunan ingenuity to devise a Lill that would be satisfactory to all parties. The duty of the Government was to have legis- lated long ago upon those principles which they themselves consider fit, and to have founded a practice] measure upon those principles, and then to have left it to the parties whose duty it was to have obeyed it.

He supported the bill, because it must make matters better, and satisfy the rational, though it might displease the violent members of the Church. Lord Bnouorraor explained the proceedings of the Civil Courts, and maintained that they had not assumed a spiritual jurisdiction.

Lord Chancellor COTTEMIAM spoke to the same effect. He con- sidered that the bill gave the Church too much power, by euabling it to

exclude the presentee of the patron.

The Earl of ABERDEEN briefly replied-

Ue that the powers recognized by the bill were large, but denied that it would give to the Spiritual Courts a positive or absolute veto, because it compelled them to assign reasons for their judgment. This he thought was a sufficient guard against any abuse of the power that was allowed to remain with them.• The House divided—

For the second reading Against it 74 27 Majority 47