Elehatest ;nth Prnreeltingti in Parliament.
1. CORPORATION REFORM.
The House of Peers resumed the consideration of the Municipal Bill on Monday.
Previously to going into Committee, numerous petitions were pre- sented by Lords BRIM:DHABI and RADNOR in favour of the bill, and one from Darlington, by the Duke of CLEVELAND ; who took the op- portunity of remarking upon the detrimental alterations the bill had received, and expressing his strong disapprobation of them. He was surprised at the language used in the discussion of the measure by the Opposition Peers ; and had heard with indignation the threat of the Duke of Newcastle to impeach Lord Melbourne. The Duke of Newcastle had uniformly voted against measures of Reform,—against the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, Catholic Emancipation, and Parliamentary Reform. His opposition to the last might, indeed, be accounted for by regret for the loss of the borough patronage of which the bill deprived him.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE declared, that the Reform Bill had relieved him of a great care, by taking away his boroughs, by which he bad never gained any thing: he had not gained his dukedom by them. (Loud Opposition cheers.) The Duke of CLEVELAND, in reply to this insinuation, denied with much warmth that he had used his borough influence to obtain his ele- vation in the Peerage.
Lord MELBOURNE presented petitions in favour of the bill—from Edinburgh, signed by 18,000 inhabitants; from Glasgow, signed by 20,000 inhabitants ; and from seventeen other places; also from 1St freemen of Liverpool, praying that their rights might be extinguished.
The order of the day having been read for the House going int* Committee, The Earl of HADDINGTON made some remarks on the manner im. which the Scotch Burgh Reform Bill had been carried, in a thimt House, and with little discussion; and then said, that he understood the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Scotch Corporations—all of whom were Whigs—had spoken unfavourably is their Report of intrusting the Scotch Tows-Councils with the dis- posal of ecclesiastical patronage. Thatsionswer the bill before the House proposed to confer on the English Town-Councils. He wished to know whether the Report' of the Scotch Commissioners could net'. be laid on the table, so that the House might have the benefit of it. :luring the discussions on the English bill? isord MeLsototare sahib the Report was received shout .tie Stit Kant, od would seen be placed the hands of their Loritebitek Lord BROUGHAM remarked upon the great importance which Lord, Baddington attached to the report of the Scotch Commissioners- ,. 'What a lucky thing It is to be a Scotchronn," wag a very old ems ing ; and it was well known that the-slower of a person who had done the state some service to Lord (eIville's proffkti of reward was, " Why, if your LonIshipmankt only manage to !mike se a Scotchman, I should be perfectly satisfied." A new discovery 1 ad been Made, however : it was a great thing to be a Scotch Commissioner, (4 Ictu.gh.) Every act of an unfortunate English Whig Commissioner was mistrusted bud fog nil fault with; he sacrificed every thing to his polities, and his Reports Were *ere waste paper. Rut when a Scotch Whig Commissioner took the field, his Reports were absolute perfection. They were without appeal; and were to bind the Legislature irrevocably. (" Hear!" and laughter.) lie hoped, as he hall said thus much for Lord Huddington's country- men, that his noble friend would say ea much for the Enlist' Commissioners, and admit that they were entitled to equal deference and respect.
After some observations by Lord ABERDEEN and Lord MELBOURNE, respecting the Scottish Church Commission, the House went into Committee on the Municipal Bill.
On the 24th clause being put,
Lord LY:4DIIURST said, that he intended to propose some amend- ments to it ; but before he stated their nature, he replied to the re- marks of the Duke of Cleveland respecting the iinputtd delay of the bill, and the detrimental character of the alterations effected in it : he maintained that no impediments had been thrown in the way of the bill, and that it had received substantial improvement. The clause at which they had then arrived was the most important of any, for it determined the composition of the governing body.
What. according to the bill, was to be the shape of the governing bodice of these corporations ? They were to be elected by the ratepayers; they were to hold their! offices for three years. No qualification. according to Lord Melbourne's bill, o as to be required of them ; tint their Lordships had since thought that a qualification was ne-• cessary, although the precise nature of it had not yet been determined. In what way would a body of this description act ? From all their experience and knowledge with respect to matters of this kind, their Lordships knew that the Council must act tinder the control of those persons by whom they were appointed. They 'mulct, in the first' instance, be required to give pledges as to the nature of their conthiet; and during the time of discharging their duties, they would be looking to the period of reelection, and would flatter the prejudices and pander to the feelings of those by whom they were appointed. in order to insure their reelection. Their lordships had seen much of this of late: they had had such opportunities of seeing bow this system worked. that it was impossible to shut their eyes to the effect of it upon persona who would be thus appointed. Such persons must inevitably act under the control, and be subservient to the feelings. opinions, and political views of those by whom they were returned. " When I first entered into public life (said Lord Lyndhurst) I remember the principles then laid down and acted upon with respect to representative goverument, whether re- -kiting to the government of the country or to a goverument of any minor description. It was said, with reapeet to a representative government. that it had all the advantages of a democracy, while it at the same time avoided all its evils—all that tyranny, all that disposition to arbitrary power, all that disregard to justice, by which democracies have always been actuated. It was said, by appointing a representative government, you would establish a complete system of freedom, and at the same time get rid of those abuses to which I have adverted; because the Representative, when once chosen, was to act independently of his contotititents. and to exercise his own free and unbiassed judgment on all matters brought under his consideration. This was the principle then laid down ; but we have lived to See directly a reverse system established in that respect. The representative is now considered as the pledged agent and delegate of those by whom be is chosen. It is to a govend ng body of this description that we have to look."
Then what were to be the functions and powers of this body ?
They were to have the possession and entire control of all the funds of the corpora. tan; they were to have a power of taxation far beyond that which was possessed by any body in the kingdom, excepting the two Houses Parliament ; they were to have the free and uncontrolled disposition of the Church pationage of the corporation.—a patronage, in many instances, most extensive,-1111 the city of Bristol extending to no less than twelve churches; they were to have the power of licensing all public-kouses within the limits of their jurisdiction,—a power of a very extensive kind, and whit!' must he followed ttly consequences of a most important nature, with respect to the in- fluence. power. and authority. which it would confer on that body ; in addition to this. they were to have the entire direction mud control of the police of the borough; and further, they were to have the extraordinary power of selecting the individuals to be presented to the Throne, out of whom the Magistrates of the borough were to be ape pointed ; the Crown having no power to appoint a single Magistrate within the juris- diction of the borough, unless previously nominated by this extraordinary body. Lastly (for it was the last point wbieh at present occurred to him), they were to have transferred to their nominees, without qualification, without inquiry, without security. those extensive charitable funds which were placed under the care and superintendence of the corporation. These were the extensive ar,.I extraordinary powers which were to be invested in the body so constituted, and acting under such a control. Powers so great, intrusted to a body of snail a nature, were calculated to excite alarm-ill his mind as to the manner in which this system would operate in point of practice.
He regretted that they had not the Report of the Scotch Commis.. sioners before them ; for be believed it would appear that they very much disapproved of empowering the Town-Councils to distribute ecclesiastical patronage., In the absence of the Report, he would read a letter be had received from a person in Glasgow, who, from stationi knowledge and talent, was entitled to have his opinion treated with Much respect. Lord LI annuirsx read the letter he alluded to; in which it was stated, that owing to a -low class of persona, inexpea rienced and ignorant, being elected as Town- Councillors, there was every prospect of the body falling into contempt. In order to prevent the extension of this evil to England, Lord LYNDHURST said he should propose that one-fourth of the whole number of Town-Conn.. cillors should be elected for life. He anticipated Lord Brougham'd support to this proposition ; for in that noble lord's bill it was provided that Aldermen should bold offices for life. A prudent, sagacious, and statesmanlike course was adopted with regard to that bill, very different from the gross and railroad-like speed with which the present measure was urged on. He would now state the nature of his amendment more particularly— The proposition then was, that the Common-Council should consist of three-four-the of persous to be elected in the manlier prescribed by this bill, and the remaining one- fourth should be composed of persons holding office for life, either under the denomb nation of Capital Burgesses or of Aldermen, as their Lordships might think fit. Their Lordships would ask him next who is was lie proposed should constitute this one-fourth of the Council? Ile would answer, without hesitation, those who at present filled those !Faces. He answered this without hesitation. because he thought it was but an act of estiee• (Cheers.) Those officers held their places under charters from the Crown. and nod long been intrusted with the administration of property to a large amount. There was no law in this country by which they could be divested of those rights and that property. unless they had committed some crime, by which they had incurred a for- feiture. " No man shall be dispossessed of his freehold except by judgment of hin eers, or by the law of the land." What was the offence these persons had committed.? a_ here a-as the charge preferred against them ? The words in the preamble alleging abuse and neglect of privileges had been struck out ; this charge, therefore, was aban. dotted. No charge was made against them in the Report of the Commissioners; or if any had been made, there was no evidence to support iL Ile would take that Report to the letter, sod suppose every word of it to be true, and he would still say there was charge established against them. But the case did not rest there. They had examined thwitostwrti),: that at their Lordships' bar. The evidence, as it appeared in those cases, tar of t heirDd9t only were those corporate officers guilty of no crime in the per- and to the ratisfacutty, but that they had discharged their duty faithfully. houourably, n of their neighbours and friends. Why then were they to wheutrilyed_ Of..t.hose rights which they helot wider the sanction of the law of the landil of zailvioreg.ron:y to be turned 'out oftheirfreeholds and their possess'ons, km the porpeee y for another dem:711419n of persona te be erected by *mother body ? He was quite sure their Lordships, except a case of extreme necessity was moan out, smell never come to a conch' juatifyin; such a procedure. In every charter from the Crown that lie had seen, granting for the first time a mitairipal corporation, the first officers were distinctly designated by name. He wished in this instance to humane the same course, (.9)mi:illy as this was a stronger ease, betemae these iterating were already in possession of their offices. If any individual case could be skean is being proper to be excepted, let it be the exception ; but do not take the exception as the rule. and do Injustice to all because one or two persons might have been guilt y.
Lord BROUGHAM described this amendment as the greatest inroad that bad yet been made in the bill— It was thought. and not v. kitten reason, that Lord Lyndhurst was making an imentol on the bill by his amendments the other evening ; but inroads were comparative. If an enemy made an inroad of three days' march within the frontier, it would no doubt be accounted an inroad which the people Of the country wattle' lie all called neon to repel ; but it would be hilt it trifling danger when eon:pared with the taking possession of the capital. Lord Brougham had called the attack made on 'he bill on Friday an inroad ou its priociple, because be thought ii went to taint its s• y source; but when he found that this inroad had been lelloeed up by the desolating of the country. and that the enemy had phinted his standinut in the very centre of the capital, why then, referring back to the inroad of the three days' march Wit ilitl the bootie', ho would wish to heaven that the mil had extvw!ed no further. Lool Lyndhurst lied said that his amendment of the other evening a us only a workine end of a principle of the hill. He took an entirely new principle— that the opialificat kin of Town- Councillors should be, not only that they shookd he rich, but that they should be the richest, the mativni, the oligarchs ur the corpora tion; and this lie culled a working out of the qualification principle of an assesvirwait of 3d. or 64 on a tenement in the borough. Yew lemons, he betimes!, who regarded the original qualification in the bill, were quite prepared to see such a change engrafted on it. --entailed on the tree of the Constitution, of one of the most poi.onoits So hostilely. so inveterately, so ineconcileably adverse to its a hole principle ; hut, had as it was, after hearing Lord Lyndhurst's proposition to night, he looked hack to that of Friday night with envy and regret that it was not now the only alteration oil this great bill. Don't let them shut their eyes to the fart—don't let them disguise it—the bill was gone if they rolopted this amendment. ("11e4r, hear!" from the Aliasterial sidr.) No doubt ninny of their Lordships would say." So much the letter;' and co Minty lie coalul not 'once expected that it would be otherwise; fur when he saw with what ofilliculty some of their Lord- ships were reined in and prevented from lay lug their claws on the tall, and destroying it at once, he Monett that the decision they came to of allowing it to go to a Com• mittee was only changing its fate from it sodden to a lingering death. At the same time, he did not mean to say a word against the manly and straightforw at 1 iv■orse of those noble lords who fairly avowed their h.:wilily to the measure. and liralsWesi to ;re- ject it at once. Ile thought it much more praisemottlry than that or those oho, while they admitted its principle, were determined to doom that principle to a lingering death. They first began by lopping off A brand., to see how that weight be taken in another place; next they attacked the trunk ; soul now Lomat Lyndhurst laid the axe to the root.
The times anterior to the Reform Bill had been referred to by Lord Lyndhurst; who complained that Members were now sent to Parlia- ment fettered by pledges. But
Did Lord Lyndhurst never hear in those peritela Or the spotless purity of the represen- tative system, when he stippused that each Member looked upon himself as a Member fbr all England—did he never hear of Members whotainsidered that they represented only the Duke, or Earl, or Baron, by whose patronage they were stunt into their seals in the House, or perhaps the 50001. or 60001. they paid for them? did he never hear of a Member being free to vote as he liked. provided he voted according to instruction on some six or seven particular questions, on which he was allowed 110 discretion ? Thtwo were. however, men who were only pledged to at certain extent, and beyond the range of that pledge or those pledges they 'tore annum! a considerable latitude. This might be called a state of villanage regardant. There was another kind. which might be termed villanage in gross. Was there never any such thing ill Hunt! 41.1■R as a Member being so closely restricted in his public die y. as to be obliged to go every day to n cer- tain house, the residence of his patron. that he might be told how he ens to vote that evening ; and that if he dared to disobey. be ran the risk of being obliged to necept the only office that he was unwilling to take—the Sten:m[0'4i of the Chiltern Hundreds ? ("Hear l" and a laugh.) Did Lord Lyndhurst not know that this was not an isolated case, but was an illustration of the borough reireseulative system in those days : and that it continued up to the year 1832—that httal year when. according to the lop. meat of Lord Lyndhurst. so many titters were niatle to reetrict the free exercise ota Member's linbiasaed opinions ? Did he never hear of one noble lord who had the dis- posal of some twelve or thirteen seats, and of course had the absoluterovtrol of the votes of so many Members? That noble leak was such a martinet. :Mil Si) earrici0111 in kis temper, and withal so suspicions. that white the House sat he was most tinxico le that not one of his band should be out of his sight. Ile used to come below the bar intim other House and absolutely &ill his little tome in the House. Sometimes, by a secret and well-understood signal, six of his force would sit at one side end six at tiw other. Sometimes one six was marched into the Lobby, while the other remained in the House; and sometimes both the divisions retired to the Lobby, as the noble patmn might wish to' frighten or coax thou Minister. Sometimes they moved in files from one part to the other ; at others they were moved off in echellons. In fact. to use a phrase well under- stood in that day. they used to go to Dunstable to shoot lark* while any measure was in progress which they were not to implied- Ile assured his noble hired (the Duke of Cleveland) he made no allusion to him. (Laughter.) He alluded to a very differeut personage, of days long gone past. With respect to his own bill, by which Aldermen were to hold their offices for life, that provision had been introduced because they were also to be Justices of the Peace : but it was only intended to he a sketch of a bill, as it was introduced by him to their Lordships ; and he was fully justified, on calm conviction of the error of appointing Aldermen for life, in abandoning it. Certainly he was so justified, if Lord Lynd- hurst and so many other of their Lordships, after opposing Catholic Emancipation all their lives, did right in turning round at a moment's notice and giving that measure their support. He was at a loss for language to express his disgust at the proposition that one-fourth-of the representative body should be chosen for life from among the members of the existing Corporations— By foisting in Aldermen for life. the self-elective principle completely overlaid every other, and was calculated in the working of the measure and in the fulness of time to restore every borough to its state of pristine rottenness. The viper and purity of prin- ciple which, in other respects, would be introduced halo the government 01 corporations by the measure, would be paralyzed by the baneful self elective provision. It their Lordships should adopt the amendment, they would send forth a mockery. a mere sha- dow, under the pretence of the substance cf reformation, tainting the whole muss with rottenness, and disappointing, wolully diammoititin,g. the universal, the sauguiae, the ardent, and unquestionably thy just expectations or the People of Ettgland. (Cheers.) Lord WHARNCLIFFE was quite ready to corcede the point, that Cor- porations should no longer be the exclusive bodies in which public opinion bad no sway ; but would suppport the amendment, as calculated to prevent the democratic principle from absorbing too much influence in the Government.
Lord ELLENBOROUGII spoke nearly to the same effect.
Lord MELBOURNE: said, the amendment would be seriously injurious, if not entirely fatal to the bill. He pointed out the difference in the ground of opposition taken by Lord Lyndhurst from that which Lords Wharneliffe and Ellenborough had chosen— Lord Lyndhurst had spoken in a spirit of thou utmost be...tally against the bill; de- scribing in the most glow ing colours the &grad ohm of all those I-nuclides of aim repre- sentative system wit ith were most chMlshed in the days of hie youth In favour of more democratic and dangerous sentiment; treating the pith before their Loot:Alio Its dew offspring of the change. The elude force of hie argument lay iu potholing out the do& gers or the times at vt high they bad arrived, a hen it beau& neremary to give %my tee the prejudices mid submit to the wildest(aeries and caprices or the goverued- 'She present bill lie protbssed to regard as an emanatiou hum thus altered spirit of the Wawa. His hostility to the bill, and to all the priociples open us trieh it was Wended. woe Leo' apicuous in every argionntit and sentiment of his speech. lle stigmatized the Tea/MN all one brought forward with the most reckless haste; crude and incousitvrats its its provisions. Now, if he b. Hewed all this of the measure, he ought to have moved its re jeetion altogether. Other noble lonls. however, and especially the two who had jest spoken, although supporting t he amendment, u ere clearly sensible of the necessity of passing such a measure as t he present. But if they were sincere in their advocacy of the measure, how came it that all the amendments upon the bill were drawn up by the unfriendly Itsnd of Lord Lyndhurst ? (Cheers.) The amendments went to the rout and foutulaticn of the measure. The bill itself proposed that the governing bodies should be purely elective : the amendment proposed the introduction of a e"rtain number of members for life. Was not this a complete inunnaly ? History. he knew, would furnish a precedent for almost every thing; but fur such a proposition it offered no example. Lord LYNDHURST here said—" TheCorporation of London is a case in point : the Aldermen are elected for life, the Common- Councilmen not."
Lord MELBOURNE rejoined, that the Courts of Aldermen and Com- mon-Council were separate courts : his observaticn applied to the pro- posal to constitute one body partly of annually elective, partly of mem- bers for life.
The Duke of WELLINGTON denied that there was any difference between Lord Lyndhurst and Lords Ellenborough and Wharneliffe or himself. Lord Lyndhurst had been chosen to propose the amend- ments because he was a distinguished member of the legal profession, and the best qualified for the to-k.
The Committee divided : for the amendment, 126; against it, 39; majority against Ministers, 87. The clauses framed by Lord LYNDHURST to carry his amendment
into execution were then added to the bill. The clauses down to the 33d were agreed to, with verbal amendments ; and theCommittee rose.
On Tuesday, after a considerable number of petitions had been pre- sented in favour of, and a few against the bill, the House again went into Committee.
The first clause on which any discussion took place was the 34th ; which enacts that the Justices of the Peace shall remain in office to the 30th of May 1836, and no longer. Lord Lvsaltultsr moved to strike out the words which provided for the retirement of the Justices ; on the ground that it would be unreasonable to dismiss persons, against whom no fault bad been proved, from the Commission of the Peace.
Lords Baouctesst and MELBOURNE expressed their decided dis- approval of the alteration.
Lord MELBOURNE said, that it bad been admitted by their Lordships that the Corporations needed reform, and yet every feature of the old
system was proposed to be retained— They were sweeping away from this bill almost carry thine, almost every point that could be useful. It was impossible that their Lordships could have taken means more effectual to prevent this measure from remedying any of the evils that had been com- plained of. or front producing any of the edvantages which were expected to arise from at, than those which they bud adopted. The presertat ion of so nitwit abuse, and more- over, the preservation of so much of that which it vt as desirable on every acconut to get rid of. rendered the bill perfectly inefficient for the purposes for which it as as originally intended. Ile should mak.• nu opposition either to this or to any other amendment, because, from the determination by stitch their Loalships had shown themseives
actuated at present, such opposition would be evidently useless. lint when these amendments albeit Lortlettios should all be adopted. a when the bill should be seen
in the state in which their Lordship,: might be dispo•tal to leavi it. it would then be matter of serious. ay, of very serious consideration, whether Isis Majesty's Millkters could proceed with u measure so mutilated and so spoiled. ('' Mar, hear !" from, the Ministerial terehes.) Lord LYNDHURST'S amendment was then adopted, without a division
On the 36th clause, which regulates the division of boroughs into wards, being proposed,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved an amendment, which he thus ex- plained— He wools', assign to every borough of which the population exceeded 6.000. and was under 9,000 persons, two wards; to every borough of which the population exceeded 9,000. and was finder 13,000, three wards; to every horough of which the population exceeded 13.000, and Wks under 18.000,1our wards; and so ou, until vets got to boroughs of which the population varied fm:a 55,000 to 70.000 inhabitants. when he would diahle the boroughs into eight Wards. This unlade, he contonded, would be more effectual than that proposed in the bill, if the object of the promoters of it were to give each and every interest in the borough a fair share of the representation.
Instead of authorizing the King in Council to divide the boroughs into wards, he would empower the Magistrates of the district next ad- joining the borough to le divided, to perform this duty.
Lord MELBOURNE objected to this plan—
It was not a course calculated to secure a wise and temperate administration of the bill. It was taking at haphazard DIM with more or less discretion, with more or less interest in the local affails and prelmbees of t he differeut boroughs. and placing in their hands a power which the noble baron said was of a very delicate nature. and must difficult to be exercised with im.ortiality. Ile could nut but think that this power would be more prudently and more skilfully exercised by Commissioners appointed by the Crown, than it would be by any Magistiates taken at haphazard He must
say, that he saw no advantage in these minute except it were to divide towing into snug coteries, over which rich men might exercise the right of nomination by dint of money. Ile was of opinion. that the limit to the number of aards provided by this bill was quite suflieient. From lila hurried manner in which Lord Ellenbo- rough had given the statement of the substance of his clauses, be had nut been aide to understood the mode its which be would fix the number of Councillors; but, as far as he could understate' it, it appeased to be another well-devised scheme to give addl. tional weight to the influence of property. It appeared to him. that this amendment gave a still more aristocratical character to the bill than that which their Lordships had already unfortunately impressed upon it.
The Earl of .W1NCHILSEA said that the bill had been brought for- ward for party purposes only. He thought the amendment would coun- teract the effect intended, and would therefore support it.
The Earl of Rtros, the Duke of RICHMOND, the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, and Lord SEGRAVE, opposed the amendment ; which was supported by Lord SKELMERSDALE and the Earl of HARROWBY, and carried.
Clause 65th, which takes the power of granting alehouse licences from the Magistrates, and confers it on the Town- Councils, was struck out, after some opposition from Lords BROUGHAM and RADNOR.
An amendment was made in the 67th clause, relating to charitable trusts ; by which the period of transferring the trusteeship from its present -holders to the !'own-Councils, will be postponed from the 1st January to 1st August 1836,—in order, as Lord LYNDHURST said, that Lord Brougham's bill for the management of charitable funds might be passed in the mean while.
• Clause 101st was amended by Lord LYNDHURST, so that Recorders
who are barristers of five years' standing will be exempted from the operation of the bill.
The remaining clauses having been agreed to with unimportant verbal amendments, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE asked Lord Lyndhurst, whether his principle of qualification was intended to apply to the present members of corporations, who were to be the life.members of the new Town- Councils ?
Lord LYNDHURST said, be should probably find it necessary to make some alteration with respect to the qualification of Town-Councillors. Lord LANSDOWNE was glad of it; but the question to which he
wished an answer was this— was it still Lord Lyndhurst's intention to make it indispensable that one Ii u.'hi of the Town Council should be elected fur life; and would those who had 114.1.11 sCht 0,0,4 be allowed to act as Town Coutwillors, although they might happen to pain era If their Lordships would turn to the Report of the Corporation Conanisshaleis, they ttonld find that many of the corporatiena were composed of men at km stele ectaal pampers; so that the effect of the noble and learned luid's ametelmeut would be to in.
I r.iduce, against the wishes of (heir fellow burgesses, persons into the Tout, l:s who would be wholly incompetent to discharge the ditties of their office Lord LYNDHURST said, that on introducing his amendment he had stated that it was open to future modification.
Lord LANSDOWNE wished he could have a distinct answer to his question : he wished to know distinctly, whether the principle of quali. fication was to apply to the members of corporations who were to be Town-Councillors for life ?
Lord LYNDIIURST said-- In reply to the noble marquis, I beg to state, that any amendment elebraced these members of the Council silo were elected from the general body of rate-payeis h, set in the Town Councils."
Lord BROUGHAM hoped that Lord Lyndhurst would not thir !: of
making paupers Town. Councillors for life ; yet that would be the ,.t of his amendment— Suppose, for instance. that the qualification extended to a corporation at pre -..,:t ,51 existence. Well, suppose the members or that corpoaatiou arse elected tar I d.■. that one of its ment hers shout I aiterwards become imadvent and a pauper,— w s t t at in solvent pauper still to hold office in the Council, notwithstanding his nianitest to perform the duties of his office? Now the bill proposed that the nieutters of the Council should he changed every three years ; SO that the bill would in that time have got rill of a pauper Councillor, or a 'sniper Alderman, as the case might be; but the- intendment made the pauper a Couceillor, or an Alderman, all his line, %%Wipe, rower of reinuca l. whereas by the bill he must of necessity go out in three years.
Lord LYNDHURST could only say, that when the amendment came to be reconsidered, it would be open to any objections that could be raised against it.
Lord BROUGHAM then called the attention of the House to a letter he had received from Mr. John Douglas, member of the Glasgow Town-Council, giving a positive contradiction to the depreciating state- ments relative to the Town-Council, which were read by Lord Lynd- hurst from the letter of a Glasgow correspondent on the previous t'ay.
Lord GALLOWAY said that Mr. Douglas was a rank Radical, whe had addressed a mob in Wigtonshire with a red cap of Liberty on his head.
Lord BROUGHAM maintained that Mr. Douglas was as respectAle a man as arty of their Lordships. This remark occasioned some noise, and the conversation was closed.
The bill, with the amendments, was ordered to be printed, and recom- mitted on Friday.
2. IRISH CORPORATION REFORM.
In the House of Commons, on Monday, Lord MORPETH awed the third reading of the bill for reforming the Municipal Corporations of Ireland.
Air. Stscr.ant objected to the bill ; which he described as an unwar- ran table concession to M r. 0 Connell—
They might as well enact that the Mayor and other corporate officers should match out of the towns with ropes round their necks, and lay their keys at Mr. O'Connell's feet. ( Cries of " 0/1!") He was glad that there existed another assembly to which measures of this description must be submitted. (" Order, order!") Being much attached to the Protestant religion, be could not consent to any measure that he considered advetse to its interest. lie knew that it was fruitless to oppose the bill on the present occasion; therefore he should content himself with entering his protest against it.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, it appeared to him that Mr. Sinclair was labouring under the hallucination called in Scotland second-sight-
His imagination seemed to run away with him—he beheld a giant in twery wind-mill. This bill did not relate to religion : its good quality was, tit .E it did not inquire into creeds, and every body who lived under a muniriptl go- vernment exercised his share in its appointment. The bill was admirably adapted to the present state of society in Ireland.' It gave to the People the practical power of interfering with their own concerns. That there were great abuses in the Corporations, could not be denied. And if Mr. Sinclair connected the Protestant religion with the Corporations, he connected it with those abuses. He, instead of being its friend, was the greatest enemy of the Protestant reli- gion, who connected it with the peculations and abuses which prevailed in the distribution of the corporate foods. Abuse was inseparable from monopoly : the moment a man was made a monopolist, he was made a rogue. As to the poor, the only power of which the bill would deprive them, was the power of selling their votes once in seven years. Air. Sinclair sturdy would not connect that with the interests of the Protestant religion. The further progress of the bill had been alluded to ; but he must say that he was not apprehensive of any attempt being made to create a property qualification for Common- Councilmen, because that would more effectually exclude the present corpo- ratota than any other provision. In one guild in Ireland, consisting of thirty, there were eighteen out of the number who had passed through the Insolvent Debtors Court.
The bill was read a third time, and passed.
On Tuesday, it was carried up to the Lords, and read a first time.
3. IRISH CHURCH REFORM.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented several petitions, oy Thursday, against the Irish Church Bill; one of them was signed bit
three Archbishops, and twelve Bishops of the Church of Ireland. Lords BEXLEY, GI.ENGAI.L, and WHARNCLIFFE, and the Dukes of Beeci.suett and NEWCASTLE presented petitions of a similar purport. After which, Viscount MELBOURNE rose to signify his Majesty's consent to the introduction of the bill.
The order of the day for the second reading having been read, Lord MELBOURNE again rose, and addressed the House at length in explanation and defence of the measure. He complained of the un-
christian tone of the petition from the Irish hierarchy presented by the Archbishop of Canterbury ;. it was as impolitic as unchristian ; it was in the highest degree unwise to cast itnputatiuns on the faith of the great mass of the Irish People. It was said by Herodotus, that King
Ile hoped their Lordships would act firmly, but at the same time ac- cording to sense and reason— But he would say, that keeping up a large Protestant Establishment amidst a Roman Catholic population, was not accurdiug to sense or reason ; nor was it calculated to produce the end which it had in view. Their Lordships were per- petually called upon in speeches and in petitions not to devote the Church pro- perty to other than pious and ecclesiastical purposes. But this bill was not de- voting it to other than those purposes. It was, in fact, restoring that property to pious and ecclesiastical purposes. It had been diverted from those cods : It had been applied to keep up ministers who had no flocks to receive instruction, and who were evidently not required. Its present application answered no Pro- testant impose, nor any religious purpose whatsoever. What was such a ? Pastor he was not, for he bad no cure of souls. M;seonaty he was not. if he were to be considered a missionary, then he would revert back to his argument, that it was not wise nor prudent to look upon the Roman Catholics—who in all the fundamentals of Christianity agreed wish the Pro- testants—as so many barbarous idolaters, and as if they were the worshippers if Juggernaut. To insult their religion, was not the way to convert the Homan Catholics.
Lord Melbourne concluded, by warning the Peers of the danger of internal dissensions, and conjuring them to pass the bill, as the only
means of preventing them. He then moved that the bill be read a second time.
Lord FITZGERALD and Vescr said that it was not intended to pre- vent the bill going into Committee ; and to the first part of it, which re- lated to the settlement of the tithe question and the grant of money to the clergy, there would be no material opposition ; but to time abolition of benefices, to the reopening of the compositions, and to the
of the surplus, the most strenuous resistance would be offered.
He hoped their Lordships would permit the bill to go to a stcand reading ; and that in the Committee they would do all they could to make the measure palatable to those from whom it came in the usual course before their Lordships. But at the same time, he hoped they would be governed primarily by a much higher and more sacred motive—that of preserving and maintaining the Church of Ireland against those imminent dangers with which the bill, if passed into a law, would environ it. ( Cheers.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE supported the bill, and hoped that the House would go into Committee with a view to pass it— If they went into the Committee with intentions hostile to the measure, and to avoid expressing opinions not tenable in these days, he warned them that their object of concealment would not be attained. The People would well know their real sentiments. If they went into the Committee merely to seek a safer opportunity to mutilate and destroy the bill, they would endanger the Church first, and afterwards every institution in the country, not omitting eveu their Lordships' House.
The Earls of RIPON, WINCHILSEA, and RODEN, expressed strong dis- approbation of the latter part of the bill. The Bishop of EXETER said, it was a measure of the greatest im- piety— He thanked Lord Melbourne for the frankness with which he had announced to their Lordships that the country was now in the hands of a Government who had cast off all regard to principle—which had put forward measures which they had at the time avowed to be indefensible in principle. They did not, in- deed, at once say that they were ready to strike down every institution which had taken root in the feelings of the country ; but they announced that they were pursuing a course from which nothing could deter them, and that they would proceed in the consideration of their own official convenience with the destruc- tion of every thing which this country had itself honoured, or had been honoured for by others. The Bishop of CHICHESTER said a few words in vindication of the bill.
Lord GLENELG was astonished at the language of the Bishop of Exeter—
It was certainly with him a matter for astonishment, that these right re . vercnd Prelates—who should be the first to set the example of moderation, tem- perance, and charity, to temper any severity of feeling, and to mitigate the
Cainbyses was mad,—and for this single reason, that being desirous to establish his power and influence in the East, he outraged and derided the sacred rites of the Egyptians : and he would say, that those who wished to establish the Protestant religion and authority in Ireland should not begin by insulting the religion of the People. Lord Mel- bourne then dwelt for some time on the origin and real nature of tithes, and called attention to the almost universal hatred in which they were held by the People. Oti the Continent of Europe, they were in the process of abolition. The wise and far-sighted Government of Prussia had already abolished them— He perfectly admitted, that it was originally part of the contract that the land was purchased subject to tithe ; and he also knew that the political economists told them that the tithe fell upon the consumer, and not upon the person who appeared to pay it. But every statesman, particularly with respect to financial impositions, would consider, in the first place, where the financial charge really did fill; and. secondly, he would consider where it was thought and felt to fall. (Great cheering.) They might talk and argue about these tithes being originally a tenth part of the produce of the land belonging to one party, and the remaining nine parts to another; they might talk and argue with the political
i
economists, that the tithe was paid in the price of the produce by the con- sumer; but after all, they would never persuade the bulk of mankind that it was not an impost, let them state the matter in any manner the most clear and dis tinct their Lordships' ingenuity could suggest. ( Cheers.) Lord Melbourne explained very clearly the provisions of the bill with respect to tithe, the manner in which it was expected to secure a sur- plus after sufficiently providing for the support of the Protestant reli- gion, and the mode of applying the surplus. He reminded the House, that, on the formation of his Ministry, he had pledged himself to carry into effect the principle of appropriation laid down in the resolution of the House of Commons ; and he justified his continuance in office on the tact, that notwithstanding the large majority against him in that House, no steps had been taken to turn him out—
t‘ Your Lordships are very numerous ; your Lordshipa are actuate(' by the same feelings and the same passions as all other assemblies ; and it is not in
human nature that a great majority should continue to suffer a minority to carry on the Government of the country, unless they found themselves under the pees- sine of some over-ruling necessity—unless they felt themselves under the direction and control of a principle of pi udence and sound policy—unless they felt com- pelled by an irresistible power to observe an abstinence not natural to them. I say, then, that your Lordships' conduct in not more effectually interposing in respect to the existing Administration, is as full a justification of my conduct as can possibly be adduced." acrimony of debate—should have so warmly entered the art u t of personal war- fare, which was attended with no other consequence than to disgrace those who engaged in it, and to engender feelings of exasperation and ill-wall. In answer to the warning which had been delivered in au oracular voice by one right re- verend Prelate to their Majesty's Ministers in that House, he should only say, that as long as they were conscious of being actuated by no other feeling than a sense of public duty. and pursue a course which was directed by their notions of right and wrong, such expressions as those which had been used by the right reverend Prelate would neither induce then) to abandon their duty nor lead them into an imitation of the seine description of language. ( Cheers.) Lord CLONCCRRY spoke in favour, the Duke of NEWCASTLE, Lord FALMOUTH, and the Marquis of WESTMEATH, against the measure.
Lord MELBOURNE replied— Notwithstanding the observation which he had made, that the religion of a country should generally be found in accordance with the religious opinionsof the majority of its inhabitants, was declared to be unworthy of a Protestant Minister, he found it impossible to retract it. He had never said that the re- ligion of the world was to be decided by the majority of the world, 89 he ap- peared to be understood ; but that the religion of every country should be decided by the majority of those who mofessed the same faith iu that country, was certainly the most convenient and natural rule, and one which lie believed was generally followed, except in the case of that country now under consider- ation—Ireland. ("Hear, hear .1") With respect to the imputations which had been dealt out by the Bishop of Exeter, he should say no more respecting them than that they were altogether unjust and unfounded. ( Cheers.)
The bill was then read a second time, and it was arranged the t should be committed on Monday.
3. ORANGE LODGES.
On Saturday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL appeared at the bar of the House of Commons, and read the following reply of the King to the address of the Commons on the subject of Orange Lodges- " I have received your dutiful address, submitting to me certain resolutions on the subject of Orange Lodges in the Army. •• My attention has been, and shall continue to be, directed to practices contrary to the regulations and injurious to the discipline of my troops. "I owe it no less to the dignity of my crown than to the safety of the country, and the welfare of my brave and loyal Army, to discourage and prevent every attempt to introduce secret societies into its ranks, and you may rely upon my determination to mlopt the most eff..etnal means for that purpose." (Loud cheers from the Miniateriat benches.) On the motion of Lord John Russell, this reply was ordered to be inserted on the Journals.
On Tuesday, Mr. W. H. ORD, from the Committee on Orange Lodges in Great Britain, reported,
" That the Committee bail summoned before them Colonel Fairman, Deputy Grand Treasurer and Deputy Secretary of the Loyal Orange Lodge of Great Britain, and required him to produce a letter-book which he admitted he had in his possession, containing copies of letters addressed to persons in the Colo- nies, and answers thereto, having reference to that association; and that he had refused to produce the said letter-book."
It was then ordered, on the motion of Mr. ORD, that Colonel Fair- man should attend at the bar of the House the next day.
On ‘Vedneeday, Mr. HUME moved that Colonel }'airman be called to the bar ; and stated why the Committee deemed such a step necessary. The Committee had found a letter-hook containing correspondence of the Orange Lodges up, lie would say, to March 1833; after which dates, other letters appeared to have been received and answered. Colonel Fairman was asked whither he had any such letter-book as would show the answers of the Seciety subsequent to March 1833? He replied that he had, but that it con- tained other matters of a private nature besides what related to Orange Lodges. lit was requested by the Committee to bring the book, and read such parts as respected the object of inquiry. For two days he declined to do so ; but on the third day, being rr called, he said that the book was his own private property, and that the contents were of such a name that lie should not even lay it beffire the members of the Grand Lodge or the Grand Committee. Ile admitted that some letters had been copied into it by clerks, and some by himself; and that it contained much respecting Orange Lodges in Corfu, Malta, Gibraltar, Quebec, &c. There were in it copies of Wale letters to Loid Kenyon, and others to the Duke of Gordon,—although thelatter were nor, he believed, on the Orange Lodge business. Being repeatedly pressed, the witness still refused to produce the book; the importance of which could be ascertained by inference, as it contained replies to letters that had been laid before the Committee. One of these Mr. Hume read to the House. It was dated from Gibraltar ; and stated that Orange Lodges had been established or existed in several regiments there,—among them the Sappers and Miners, the 12th Regiment, and the First Rifle Battalion. It was obvious also that a person of the name of IJccalli had been employed under Colonel Fair- man (alter having been introduced to Lord Kenyon) to visit Gibraltar, Malta, Sicily, Code, &c. for the purpose of establishing Orange Lodges. There were five existing letters from him relating particularly to the failure of his attempt in the Ionian Islands, in consequence of the resistance of Lord Nugent and the military commanders. It appeared afterwards, that ITecalli had gone to Rome, and had formed an Orange Lodge even in the Holy City. These letters were of a date subsequent to the old letter- book in possession of the Committee; and these could be no reasonable doubt that the replies to them were to be found in the book which Colonel Fairman refused to produce. On reference to his memoranda, the honourable Member found that the last letter in the old book was dated July 30, 1833, so that the Committee had no information regarding the end of 1833, the whole of 1834, and the beginning of 1835.
Colonel Fairman was brought to the bar, and underwent a long and t, :ious cross-examination ; in the course of which he was repeatedly ordered to withdraw, and recalled ; but the upshot was, that he refused to deliver up the book,—which was under lock and key at his residence, Portland Cottage, Mount Gardens, Lambetb,—because it con- tained private memoranda as well as some which related to the affairs of the Orange Lodges ; and because he would not submit to do any thing under the influence of a threat. lie also told the House, that he considered its mode of proceeding was inquisitorial, and therefore he refused to submit to it.
A division took place, on a motion by Sir ROBERT INGLIS, that his evidence given before the Committee should be read over to Colonel Fairman ;—which the House negatived, by a majority of 129 to 19.
Mr. WALLACE moved, that Colonel Fairman be committed to the custody of the Sergeantsut- Arms ; and said he should follow up this
motion with another, to the effect that the Sergeant-at-Arms should accompany Colonel Fairman to his residence, and bring away any books or papers connected with the proceedings of the Orange Lodges.
Mr. C. PELHAM said it would not be a more abitrary act were they to order the Colonel's head to be cut off.
Mr. SHAW charged Mr. %Vallace with being actuated by revengeful feelings and personal curiosity.
' Several Members rose to call Mr. Shaw to account for these express, Mons ; which that gentleman apologized for, and withdrew.
Colonel Sturnoers: wished the book was in his possession, for be
would then try the question with the House. He would see whether eel one should enter his private chamber. Gentlemen might pride
themselves on their numbers, but he could tell them, that strength de. pended on individual resolution. [Colonel Sibthorpe spoke with ex- treme vehemence, amidst roans of laughter.] On the suggestion of Mr. SPRING Rice, Mr. Wst.rottes: withdrew his motion ; and Mr. RILE moved that Colonel Fairman be called in and informed that in the opinom of the House he was bound to give up the book alluded to in his evidence.
' Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Sir R. 11. 1Notos moved an amendment, that such parts only of the book should be prodeced as related to the matter of inquiry.
'•Mr. SPRING RICE intimated his approval of the amendment; but the original motion was curried, by G9 to :24.
A desultory conversation ensued.
Colonel SIBTHoRPE complained that Lord John Russell had " ac- tually bolted out of the House," instead of supporting the amendment to which Mr. Spring Rice had acceded.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that he had withdaawn from the House, be- cause he did not wish to be seen voting with the gentlemen opposite.
Colonel Fairman was called iu and informed by the SPEAKER, that his duty cots to yield prompt obedience to the pleasure of the House, and to produce the documents in question. The Colonel then retired, and the discussion was closed for the night.
On Thursday, Mr. Hume stated that Colonel Fairman persisted in refusing to give up his • book ; and moved that the Colonel had com- mitted a breach of privilege.
Mr. MAXWELL, Mr. JACK!.ON, wad Colonel PERCEVAL, regretted that Colonel Fairman felt he could not produce the book.
The motion was agreed to ; and upon another motion by Mr. HUME, Colonel Fairman was ordered to be committed to New- ;ate. Mr. Hume said he was of opinion that the Sergeant-at-Arms should be sent to Colonel Fairman's house to search for the book. Mr. Wsanunr" after quotieg. precedents to justify the proceeding, said he would make a motion to that effect.
Lord JOHN llt7sseu. did not doubt the power of the House to in- stitute the search; but suggested caution in making the motion, as it would be inconvenient after discussion to withdraw it.
The SP-AKER said, there toidd be no doubt that when the House -was engaged in an important investigation, and when impediments were
thrown iu the way ut inquiry, that its powers were very great, and ought not to be curtailed. Unless, however, in cases of necessity, this ;rower ought not to be exercised.
Mr. WannonToN then moved, c.ith the view of giving Members an opportunity of expressing their sentiments on this stmjeet, that the Dm, .e do now adjourn.
Mr. II eN Mr. A Llox LT, and Mr. IVALLscE, thought Colonel I.-air- man's house should be see' died. Sir R. 1Noms. Mr. I Isar-% aial Mr.
SHAW, held a contrary opinion. Mt.. I i i; said he would make a mo- tion on the following day, the object to which should be to obtain pos- session of the hook. Ile had waited to see whether the House would support its Commioee.
Lord JOHN II essELL did not think the occasion justified the use of the extraordinary power the Mouse certainly possessed, and should op- pose Mr. motion.
Mr. C. ItinaLa maintained that the occasion was one of very great importance— The evidence showed that a regular conspiracy had been organized in the civil and military institutions of the empire—an execrable conspiracy. He admitted he had used too strung a term, and apohrgizeil fin it ; but he would say, that a most dangei ous conspiracy existed, which gave rise to the most abominable party and religious feelings.
Sir R.. RoLrE recommended that the House should be tender in the exercise of its irresponsible powers.
. The motion for mijournment was withdrawn; and Mr. Hume gave regular notice of the motion he had before mentioned.
Last night, the Sergeant-at-Arms reported, that the messenger, on going to Colonel Marinates residence to take him into custody, ascer-
tained that he bad left it a quarter of an hour before: a messenger had been aftewards sent to remain on the premises, for the purpose of arrest- ing Colonel Faieinan.
Subsequently, Mr. HUME said, that he felt he could not with pro- priety proceed with the motion of which he Lad the day before given notice. lie would Lave every man to draw his own conclusions. (Cheers.)
6. POSTTONLMENT Or TIRE SUPPLIES.
In the House of Commons, last night, the order of the day being that the House should go into Committee on the Consolidated Fund Bill,
Mr. SPRING Rica observed, that as there had been amendments made by the Loads in the Militia Staff Bill, he would postpone the moving of the Appropriation clause, till Friday next. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. TOOKE said, this course could not foil to give great satisfaction, considering the nature of the petitions that were pouring in from all parts of the country.
.141r. HUME was of opinion, that while three great and important questions were pending in another place, it would be highly improper iu the House to pass any more money clauses. (Cheers.) He did not wish to deny to another place the free exercise of its powers, but seine discretion was required on the part of both. He repeated, that the Mem- bers of the House of Commons, acting on behalf of the People of this country, were called on at the present crisis nut to agree to auy more votes of money, nor for the appropriat.on of that already granted. (Great cheering.) They might at last find themselves placed in a situation such as their constituents seemly looked for. He hoped that Mr. Rice would postpone his motion out till Friday only, but for say further period that might be uecessary enable them, before they came to its consideration, to see how the public business bad got as elsewhere. (Much cheering.) Mr. O'CONNELL said, that the control of the public funds was a con- stitutional power belonging to the Commons of England— If it was found dirt the amelioration of the abuses existing in our institution., and the advancement of the necessary refimins, were to be impeded, the Cum- ulous would exercisetheir constitutional control over the public exchequer ; and would place-h. in the bands of thme who had the confidence of the People, so as to render any peiseverance in a systematic opposition to the improvements re- quired by the People impossible. ( Cheers.) The People of England would be slaves if they. submitted to such dictation. ( Continued cheers.) The Monarch on the throne was irresponsible, because he had his servants, tied they were responsible to the People fur the acts of the Government. Would it be submitted to, that two hundred or three hundred individuals, in no way respon- sible for what they did, should wield the power of obstructing this correction of abuses and the redress of wroligs? ( Great cheering.) That would be a miserable period for this country ; and he only alluded to it fur the purpose of expressing his opinion that the People would be successful iu this struggle.
Mr. GLADSTONE would venture to express his opinion, that there could not be a more unconstitutional, it more iadec'ent, or at least inde- licate proceeding, than that of postponing the Appropriation clause, and thus refusing the grant of Supplies voted to his Majesty, on account of the conduct, of a body of individuals with whom his Majesty had no connexion.
Mr. SPRING RICE rose, amidst loud cheers. lie did not know what were Mr. Gladstone's notions of decency and delicacy, but his own would teach him to do justice to a political opponent, and not charge hint except on good ground with unconstitutional conduct. Mr. Rice then proceeded to explain to Mr. Gladstone, that the alterations of the Lords in the Militia Bill necessitated a delay in the passing of the Appropriation Act. Mr. Gladstone seemed to make a distinction be- tween the interests of the Crown and the interests of the People : that was true Tory doctrine, but Mr. Rice saw no such distinction. Mr. GLADSTONE admitted that he had misunderstood the grounds of the delay : he had been misled by the remarks of Mr. Hume and Mr. O'Connell; to whom he begged to transfer the application of his observations.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, it was a doctrine slavish in the extreme which. dictated Mr. Gladstone's remarks : he accepted the transfer, and re- turned it with contempt.
Mr. Busts: would not accept the transfer : he came there to act equally for the advantage of King and People— Doubtless the party to which Mr. Gladstone belonged were auxious again to have the public nioney at their command ; the House well knew what they bad done with it, when they once before had it under their control. He, indeed, had been fir some time desirous of an opportunity to expose the many abusers which had been practised by them during their last term of office; and be only regretted that tla: session had been so short as not to afford it to him. The fact was. that the People were now iu danger of being dein ived of die fruits of all the labours of the session ; and could it be coutended that millions ought to yield to some 3060 individuals?
Mr. Wruas said, that the country would be gratified by the constitu- tional tone of Ministers.
Air. RANDLE PLUNKET disclaimed, for the Tories, all desire to get the public purse into their keeping.
• Mr. C. BuLLca hoped the House would consider well how it voted the public money, under existing circumstances— lie did think, that if ever there was an occasion on which the House was called upon to exercise with due deliberation the power which their ancestors had placed in their hands—of deciding whether they would place the public money in the possession of improper persons, and to protect the lights of the people from those by whom they were insolently invaded, it was the present. He repeated that they were called upon to cuusider well, before they granted money out of the public purse, whether they would place it in the hands of those who would sputa the prayers and wishes of the People.
Mr. EWAILT, Mr. TOOKE, and Dr. BowitiNa, spoke to the same effect.
Mr T. Arrwoon said, it was most important that the Lords should not misunderstand the feelings of the people. lie had lately attended a meeting of ten thousand persons in Birmingham— it had been observed at that meeting, that under the present march of edu- cation and diffusion of knowledge, the time would coma approach when the country would need neither a House of Lords nor a King, and the shout with which that sentiment had been received by those ten thousand men had almost brought the roof under which they were assembled about his ears.
Mr. Twiss said, the People were not disposed to lend themselves to every revolution which interested politicians might suggest : Mr. Attwood formed a wrong estimate of the People. Mr. Twiss went on in a strain of party declamation for some time.
Lord Joust RUSSELL said, that the speech of Mr. Twiss was a se- cond attempt to prolong the debate, which Mr. Gladstone had indis- creetly and unwisely provoked. He repeated what Mr. Rice had said respecting the cause of postponing the vote of Supply ; and then spoke as follows.
a On that simple statement the honourable Member (Mr. Gladstone), thought fit to raise up an accusation against the Ministers of the Crown, and to charge them with conduct which was iudeceut and indelicate—to charge them with not doing their duty to their Sovereign, and putting off a bill which ought to be now immediately considered. It is quite true that these expressions of their opinions have been withdrawn; I am not surprised that when accusations of this kind are made, and wn they are followed up by what I think was not withdrawn,—a dictation to this House with regard to the question of Supplies,* namely, to tell this House that it was not for them to decide whether they ought to be voted, but that the honourable gentlemen opposite had a right to lay down the certain times and periods at which the Supplies should be made complete,—•I say, when speeches of this kind are made, comprehending in the first place as accusation which was proved to be totally unfounded against the Ministers of the Crown, and which a single minute's attention would have prevented ; and when they contain, in the second place, what was very like a rebuke to the House, by declaring when and how the House of Commons should vote the Sop. plies,—I repeat, when language of such a description is used, lain not astonished that it should excite not a little of angry discussion. ( Cheers.) For .my own • part, I can only say, if there is any course which I have advised this House to take, 1 have recommeuded them to du so consistently both with our duty to the Crown and with our duty to the People. We are the servants of the Crown ; we are at the same time the Representatives of the People. (Much cheering.) 1 think that these interests can be combined ; and with that conviction impressed on my mind I will not listen to the honourable gentleman, whose sentiments respecting the middle classes may be 8611 in the recollection of some who hear me—when lie delivers a lecture on the subject of what the People really are, what are the opinions of the People, and as to who are those who misrepresent the sentiments of the People. I hold nu other doctrine than this—that I think we are here to represent the People, and to consult the People's interest. I do not impute it as a fault to another branch of the Legislature, that when legislative measures come before them, they have nut considered what was their d'ity with regard to these legislative measures; but I do say, with respect to these legislative measures, and with respect to the voting the supplies of money to the Crown, that this House is in full possession of those powers which any House of Commons ever had. (Loud Cheers.) It is not for them (and I should be very sorry to find them doing so) to enter into any debates or discussions in which the independent rights either of the Crown or the House of Lords should be impugned ; but on the other Land, I am not ready—and I will not submit to do so from any imputation which may be thrown out on the other side—to give up one single iota of the powers which are considered the undoubted and indefeasible rights of the House of Commons,—to provide such laws 'as they think are necessary fur the redress of grievances, and to vote such Supplies as they may think in their consciences are best calculated to maintain the honour of the Crown and to preserve the great interests of the country. (Much cheering.) I state my opinions on this subjvct openly ; these opinions are not changed from what they have been. I have been favourable to measures of reform ; 1 am still favourable to measures of reform ; but 1 am not responsible undoubtedly for the opinions of those with whom I may be found in a division. In some of those opinions they may differ from me ; but I must say, that believing them to be anxious to act in such a way as they think to be their duty to their constituents, I am persuaded that the support which they have given to his Majesty's Ministers is as independent and honest us any that was ever given to any Ministry. I am not disposed, I repeat, to hold myself answerable for every opinion which may be expressed by those honourable Members in this House, or elsewhere ; but, on the other baud, I do not hesitate to accept their support as tendered upon honest and conscien- tious grounds—a support which could not be bought by corruption ; and 1 feel convinced, that if they do not withhold that support from us for the future, they will not withhold it only because they believe that we are endeavouring to ilo our best, in this great crisis, to serve the mighty interests of the People." (Loud and continued cheering.) Mr. Twies complained that his remarks, made on a previons occa. sion, respecting the middle classes, h id been misconceived by Lord John Russell, us they had been by Lord Althorp.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL apologized for the misconception.
Sir E. CODRINGTON and Dr. BALDWIN expressed their decided ap- probation of the conduct of Ministers; and the discussion was closed.
7. TfIE NEWSPAPER-STAMP.
Last night, Mr. E. L. BULWER moved for a Committee to inquire into the expediency of reducing the Stamp-duty on Newspapers to one penny. He supported his motion in a speech of some length ; but the arguments on this exhausted subject are such as our readers are familiar with.
Mr. Hume. seconded the motion.
Mr. SPRING RICE spoke strongly against the principle and policy of the Stamp-duty ; but said, that in the present state of the revenue he could not try experiments. For the protection of established papers, perhaps a copyright in newspapers might be of service.
Mr. C. 13eLLEa did not think there was any apprehension of a fall- ing off in the revenue.
The enormous sale of the Sunday papers might be taken as a criterion of what the sale of daily papers would be it the duty were reduced. Those who could not afford to pay sevenpence a day for a newspaper, were content to pay sevenpence a week fur a Sunday paper, and to put up with the best summary of the news they could obtain at that price. If, however, a daily paper was pub- lished at a low price—such a price as the proposed reduction of the duty would admit of—it could not he doubted that every one would prefer having his news as rapidly as his neighbour, and that the cheap daily, paper would he purchased in preference to a weekly one. At all events, the great sale of the Sunday papers at the present moment afforded a striking illustration of the desire of the People to obtain information and intelligence. By a return which had been laid upon the table of that House, it appeared that the number of Sunday papers annually published in this country was 20,000,000; and the number of daily papers, 15,000,000. Dividing the amount of the daily papers by the number of times at which they were published—say in round numbers 300—the num- ber of the purchasers would appear to be about 50,000; but, dividing the amount of the Sunday papers by the number of times at which they were pub- lished—say again in round numbers, 50—the number of their purchasers would appear to be about 400,000. He maintained that this was a strong argument in favour of the reduction of the duty. He certainly thought the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with respect to granting a copyright, was one of great importance, and one that should not be lost sight of. fie thought also that a good rational libel law—a law which, whilst it gave perfect liberty of political discussion should effectually check personal slander—ought to accom- pany any change in the laws affecting the press.
Mr. GROTE considered that Mr. Rice had not made out a sufficiently strong ground of finance to warrant him in resisting the motion. Mr. WARBURTON said, it was impossible the tax could be continued six months longer, after the speech of Mr. Rice.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM said, that his proposition, to levy a tax on news- papers in proportion to the price, would put an end to all difficulty; but he was not at liberty to move it. Mr. O'CONNELL considered the declaration of Mr. Rice a pledge for the ultimate reduction of the tax.
Mr. ROBINSON hoped, that after what had occurred, Mr. Bulwer would not press his motion.
Mr. WAELEY hoped that Mr. Bulwer would not accede to this sug- gestion, because the state of the House assured him that he could carry it by a large majority. He wished to ask Mr. Rice, whether he would put up the tax to a public bidding? Contractors might be
found who would make an excellent bargain if they took the tax at a penny.
Mr. E. L. BULWER would not divide the House, as he considered that Mr. Rice had given a distinct pledge for the repeal of the tax— The tax must be repealed next lesion; it became, therefore, merely a question of time. If he pressed the question to a divish n, he should carry it with three great disadvantages, which be was not disposed to incur. In the first place, he should weaken the Government at a moment when they ought to be most strengthened ; in the next place, they should expose themselves to the charge of a collision existing amongst them, at a moment when they ought to be most united ; and in the third place, they should be liable to the accusation (though a most unjust one) that they had not a regard for the national faith. Under all these circumstances, he thought his object would be best obtained—the Govern- ment baying acknowledged the principle—by leaving the question of the time of bringing it forward to them.
Mr. SPRING Rica denied that he was pledged to a repeal of the lax under any circumstances.
Mr. E. L. BULWER considered him pledged, in case the state of the revenue allowed it.
Mr. RICE—" That is all I meant."
Mr. HUME said, he would not have seconded the motion of Mr. Bulwer, if he had known that gentleman was pledged not to divide the House.
Mr. HENRY BULWER said, that as the principle had been admitted by Mr. Spring Rice, there was no necessity for a division.
The motion was put, and negatived.
MISCELLANEOUS SUBJECTS.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILIS. In the House of Commons, on Saturday, Sir JOHN CABIPBEIJ. moved the third reading of the rm. prisonrnent for Debt ( Scotland) Bill ; which was agreed to, and the bill was passed. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the third reading of the English Bill forAbolishing Imprisonment for Debt ;—which motion was agreed to, after some discussion, and this bill also was passed.
On Monday, Lord BROUGHAM moved the first reading of the latter bill in the House of Peers.
Lord LYNDHURST said the provisions of the bill would require six weeks' examination in a Select Committee.
Lord HanEwoori felt it his duty.to apprize their Lordships, that the bill applied the principle of the Bankrupt-laws to every acre of land in the country : if it were passed, the Commissioners to be appointed tinder it, would have absolute and uncontrollable dominion, not only over their Lordships' property, but over their persons also. He implored their Lordships to have the bill printed, take it into the country with them, and give it their earnest consideration.
Lord BROUGHAM denied that Lord Harewood had given any thing approaching to a correct account of the provisions of the bill. He hoped that some progress might be made with it this session.
The bill was read a first time.
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Lord. MORPETII, this bill was read a third time in the House of Commons, on Saturday, and passed. It was read a first time on Monday, and a second time en Tuesday, in the House of Peers, on the motion of Lord
MELBOURNE.
DUTY ON COFFEE, ASHES, AND RICE. The House of Commons, o.i Monday, went into a Committee on the Customs. duties ; and, on the motion of Mr. PouIETT THOMSON, passed resolutions to lower the duty on coffee, the produce of the East Indies and Sierra Leone, to sixpence a pound ; to admit ashes from the East Indies at the same duties as from other parts of the British dominions ; and to reduce the duty en rice, the growth of the African coast, to a penny per pound.
CONTRACTS FOR ELECTION PURPOSES. Mr. WARBURTON pre- sented a petition on Monday from Mr. Silas Pearce of Plymouth, complaining that Mr. Dawson, late Secretary to the Board of Admi- ralty, had given a contract for 60,000 cubic feet of stone to a Mr. Scott at 81d. a foot, although he (Mr. Perim) had made a tender to supply it at 7d. a foot. The reason for this preference was, that Mr. Scott was an active electioneering friend of Sir George Cockburn and Mr. Dawson. It was also stated that 30,000 feet only was the quan- tity advertised fur; but Mr. Scott, through the agency of Captain Ross, who held an office under Government at Plymouth, bad ascer- tained that 60,000 feet would be required, and had therefore sent in a tender for that quantity. It furthermore appeared, that after the new Board of Admiraltry was appointed, Mr. Scott had offered to take the contract at ed. a foot. Lord ASHLEY said that it would he found that Mr. Pearse's tender was really at the rate of 73d. a foot, not 7d. ; and he had ascertained, upon application to Mr. Dawson, that the Board had been warned that Mr. Pearse had been a bankrupt, and was not a man to be dealt with.
Sir E. CODRINGTON spoke highly of Mr. Pearse's character, as did Lord Ebringtou and other Members. Mr. Pearce also, it was said, had offered to give unexceptionable security for fulfilment of the contract.
Mr. WARBURTON said he should again bring forward the subject.
On Wednesday, Mr. WARBURTON moved for a Committee to investi- gate the circumstances connected with this transaction. The motion was opposed by Lord ASHLEY and Mr. Sttaw ; but supported by Mr. HUME and Captain PECHELL, and carried by a majority of 59 to 12.
COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA. Sir JOHN HOBIIOUSE stated on Mon- day, in reply to a question and some remarks by Mr. WALLACE, that The East India Company had not taken the steps expected from them for a direct communication from Suez to Bombay, by the Red Sea; but by private letters from Bombay, it appeared that a steam-boat was to sail from thence to Suez on the 12th of July; but had already twice attempted the passage, and had been obliged to put back. It was his duty to mention, that last week the Board with which he was connected and the Directors of the East India Com- pany had come to a determination to build two large steam-vessels, to be placed on the Bombay station ; but the real reason why more earnest steps had not been taken for this most useful purpose, was a regard to the dilapidated finances of the Company. The object was, however, one of a national importance, and should receive every attention. The honourable Member had thrown out sit opinion as to the failure of the route by the Euphrates: what might be the issue, S:r John could not pretend to say ; but he had his opinion, and the last advices were favourable. He had letters from Aleppo and Antioch, both of the 19th of June, stating that all difficulty had been removed as to the conveyance of stores, and that some of them had reached a place on the road, and that they were on the loud across the mountains to Bere. But supposing this expedition to succeed, it would still be the duty of the King's Government to take steps for the regular navigation of the Red Sea. LAWS AGAINST THE PRESS. On Monday, Mr. HOME moved for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Act 60 George III., chap. 9, re- lative to newspapers and political pamphlets. There was no duty im- posed by this Act, and nothing would be lost to the revenue by its re- peal : it was one of the Castlereagh Acts, and a disgrace to the Legis- lature which passed it. Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion. Mr. SPRING RICE opposed it ; on the ground that under that Act alone was Government able to punish the publishers of unstamped papers. Mr. C. Butaza, said the fair dealer was not protected ; the Twopenny Dis- patch and the Police Gazette each circulated 40,000 copies weekly ; the Times and the Weekly Dispatch each sold 30,000 copies a week ; but the Penny Magazine sold 200,000 copies. The question was not one of finance, but should be viewed in connexion with the political eduea- tion of the People. Mr. C. PELHAM said, it was not necessary for the poor to read newspapers. Mr. HUME could not see why the whole Act should be retained for the sake of the clause empowering Govern- ment to enforce the Stamp-laws : surely one portion of the Act could be repealed and the other retained. They who suffered such an Act to remain on the Statute-book were responsible for its consequences, though they were not its authors.
The motion was then withdrawn.
IRISH CHIEF REMEMBRANCER AND DEPUTY. Mr. 1VARBURTON moved on Monday, the House being in Committee on the Irish Sheriffs Bill, that the Chief and Second Remembrances of the Court of Chancery in Ireland should not be allowed to have seats in the House of Commons. The motion was opposed by Mr. SPRING RICE and Mr. O'CoNNELL ; and rejected, by a majority of 49 to 21. On Tuesday, the Report on the Sheriffs Bill being under consideration, Mr. O'LouonsIN said, that he had received a letter from Mr. Blake, the Chief Remembrances' stating that he had no idea of looking for a seat in Parliament, and suggesting that a clause to prevent himself and his Deputy from taking seats in the House should be inserted in the bill ; and Mr. O'LOUGHLIN then said that be should propose such a clause. Several Members expressed satisfaction at this arrangement.
PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS AND PUBLIC WALKS BILL. Both these bills were withdrawn by Mr. BUCKINGHAM on Tuesday ; Sir JOHN HOIMOUSE, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, and other Members having declared their determination to oppose them. Sir JOHN HOBIIOUSE said, that the two bills seemed to be running a race for supremacy in absurdity, and he hoped that neither the one nor the other would reach the goal.
IRISH CONSTABULARY BILL. This bill, the object of which is to remodel the Police establishment of Ireland, passed through a Com- mittee of the House of Commons Oil Tuesday. It provides that the Lords Lieutenant shall make appointments to the Pollee force, instead of the local Magistrates ; and that every person entering it shall be compelled to swear that he does not now belong to, and will not join, any secret or political society whatsoever. A diminution of expense would be effected by the new arrangement of 30391. per annum ; the present force costing 44,2391., while the estimated expense under the new plan was 41,2001.
Mr. SIIAw complained, that the local Magistracy would be superseded by salalied Justices of the Peace under the name of Police-inspectors. The object of the oath was to exclude Orangemen ; but Orangemen called their society a religious, not a secret society; and the bill would therefore not be effective.
This was the only conversation of interest, though the House was engaged some time on the bill.
MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On Thursday, the House being in Committee on this bill, Mr. POULTER moved the omission of the second clause ; which motion was carried, on a division, by :33 to 21; and it was then agreed to postpone the further consideration of the measure.
CLANDESTINE MARRIAGES (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. JACKSON moved the third reading of this bill on Thursday. Mr. O'LouonsiN opposed the motion ; and the bill was thrown out, by a vote of 51 to 7.
COMMITTEE ON GENERAL DARLING. Mr. TOOKE, on Thursday, moved that this Committee should have the power of sending for papers, persons, and records. Sir HENRY HARMS:GE vehemently op- . posed the motion. He said that the Committee had been made a tribunal for prosecuting General Darling on a charge of murder, in- stead of a Committee of inquiry. lie called Mr. Maurice O'Connell the prosecutor ; and said that Mr. O'Connell had said the Committee ought to be open, because it was a "criminal court." Sir HENRY afterwards withdrew the word " prosecutor," as applied to Mr. Maurice O'Connell. A stormy debate ensued. Sir Henry Hardinge inn. pugned the whole proceedings of the Committee, especially the intro- duction of a set of irons similar to those said to have been put on the two soldiers by Darling. Mr. Tooas defended the Committee. Finally, Mr. Tooke's motion was agreed to.
ALLEGED BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Mr. H. MAXWELL, on Thurs- day, complained of an article in the Dublin Evening Post, in which he himself, with Colonels Perceval and Verner, were called liars, for as- serting that they were ignorant of the existence of Orange Lodges in the Army. He moved that Frederick William Conway he ordered to attend the bar of the House on Monday. Subsequently, on the sug- gestion of the SPEAKER, the motion was altered to one declaring that the publication in question was a breach of privilege. Mr. Hums: denied that there had been any breach of privilege committed. Mr. SPRING RICE recommended Mr. Maxwell not to be so thin-skinned : ' OFFICE OF LORD CHANCELLOR. On Monday, Lord JOIIN RUS- SELL, when questioned by Mr. LYNCH, informed the House, that next session Ministers intend to propose a measure for the anointment of a permanent Judge of the Chancery Court.
QUALIFICATION OF MEMBERS BILL. Mr. HUME, on Monday, withdrew this bill, on being assured by Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who approved of the principle of the measure, that it could not be passed this session.
LIGHTHOUSES BILL. Mr. HUME, on Monday, withdrew this bill until next session.
he was often assailed himself, but went to bed and slept undisturbed by dreams of newspaper devils drawing his curtains in the dead of night. If abuse could thicken the skin, he should surpass the rhino- ceros in the Zoological Gardens in thickness of skin. Lord Moa.. milt said he had been made the subject of an elaborate parallel with Pontius Pilate, but had not complained to the House. Mr. O'CON- NELL said this debate would be delightful to Frederick Conway, who would get from 300 to 500 additional stipseribers by it. The motion was pressed to a division ; and rejected, by 58 to 18.
THAMES TUNNEL. On Thursday, Mr. WALTER moved for a Select Committee to inquire into " the circumstances attending the introduc- tion " of the Act by which the Treasury was authorized to make a loan of money to the Thames Tunnel proprietors. Mr. F. BARING, Mr. HAWES, and Mr. SPRING RICE, opposed the motion ;—which was with- drawn.
RECORDER OF DUBLIN. Mr. HUME presented a petition last night from the inhabitants of Dublin, complaining of the conduct of Mr. Shaw. A sharp debate ensued ; in the course of which, Mr. SHAW defended himself with much warmth. Several Members spoke, but the topics of the debate were not by any means new. The petition was laid on the table.
KERRY ELECTION. Mr. SCARLETT last night presented a petition from the freeholders of Kerry, complaining of a series of flagrant intimidation practised against them. Mr. Scarlett, in the course of a long speech in support of the petition, impugned the conduct of the Intimidation Committee in regard to the complaints of the Kerry voters. Mr. W. H. ORD, the Chairman of that Committee, said that the witness adduced to prove intimidation at the Kerry election had failed in doing so. The Committee bad refused to go into the case more fully, and Sir Henry Hardinge had agreed in the propriety of the decision. The petition brought forward the old complaint of a handbill called the " Patriot's Curse ; " but it had been proved that this was a forgery palmed upon the Times. He concluded by moving that the debate be adjourned to Monday ;—which motion was agreed to.
CARLOW ELECTION. The Committee reported, on Wednesday, that Messrs. Vigors and Raphael were not, and that Messrs. Bruen and Kavanagh were duly elected.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM'S INDIAN CLAIM. Last night, Mr. TULE moved for leave to bring in a bill " to provide for the payment, by the East India Company, of compensation to Mr. Buckingham, for certain losses of property in India." A brief discussion occurred on this sub- ject, in the presence of Mr. Buckingham whose presence, Sir Joust HOBIIOUSE and Mr. VERNON SMITH, who opposed the motion, much regretted. Mr. HUME and Mr. BAINES supported the motion ; and it was carried, against Ministers, by 45 to 13.
SCOTTISH CHURCH COMMISSION. In the course of the discussion on the Municipal Bill in the House of Peers, on Monday, Lord HAnDING- TON noticed with disapprobation the composition of the Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the Scottish Church, some of the Commissioners being known friends to the Voluntary principle.
Lord MINTo said,. that out of eleven Commissioners only three were Dissenters.
Lord ABERDEEN said, that there was great and increasing discontent in Scotland on the subject of the Commission. The General As- sembly had disapproved of the appointments of the Commissioners, by a vote of 90 to 3. He only wished that the Commission should give general satisfaction.
Lord MELBOURNE heartily concurred in the same wish— He had seen iu the various deputations from Scotland that had waited•upon him on the sal feet, very strong feelings on both sides ; and he bad kit satisfied. that how- ever the Commission might he constituted. it would fail of giving general satisfactiou. He deeply lamented that the violence of the feelings on both sides which lie had feared had been manifested ; but it was to the violence of those feelings that the discontent was to be attributed, and nut to the constitution of the Commission itself. Considering the iolence of both parties,—considering the great imprudence of the friends of the w Church in bringing forward the question of a grant, and also in the late Ministry re- commending i: it, the Speech from the Throne, by a hid, the violence of the opponents of the grant had been increased.—lie feared that uo inquiry would give general satisfac- tion. lie owned he anticipated the discontent a WO he was sorry to find prevailed. He would, however give the matter his fullest consideration ; and if any means could iN, found to make the Commission generally satisfactory, a ithout injuring its efficiency, he should most undoubtedly adopt them.
LIMITATION OF POLLS BILL. On the motion of Lord Mamma, this bill was read a third time in the rlouse of Peers on Thursday. The Marquis of SALISBURY proposed to strike out the clause which abolishes the taking of the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance at the polling-booth. The Duke of RICHMOND and Lord BROUGHAM op- posed the motion, and their Lordships divided : for the amendment— present 48, proxies 13 =61 ; against it—present 47, proxies 36 =83 : majority for the clause 22. The bill was then passed.
MILITIA STAFF BILL. On Wednesday, this bill went through the Committee of the House of Lords, notwithstanding much dissatisfac- tion with its provisions was expressed by several Peers. The Marquis of SALISBURY called upon Lord Melbourne to state, as his Majesty's adviser, that he did not intend to destroy the Militia, but to increase its efficiency. Lord MELBOURNE said, that the noble marquis had called upon him to answer the call he pleased to make, and to say so and so, which the noble marquis dictated : now he should say nothing of the kind— He had said in the Committee, and he repeated it now, that in his opinion the Militia should Ix! sustained ; he had said it should be supported; he had said it should be improved ; he had said it should be ameliorated, to render it more efficient for its purpose: but he had distinctly said also, that he did not pledge himself to maintain the Militia Staff in the manner in which it had been heretofore maintained in this country. This was consistent with his declaration in that House, that he considered it bad policy that at the end of the war it should have been preserved in the form it had then been, and in which it had ever since remained.
Last night, the bill was read a third lime, on the motion of Lord DUNCANNON.
NEW HOUSE OF LORDS. A conversation took place on Wednesday, between Lords WicsLow and DUNCANNON, the Marquis of LANS- DOWNE, and the Duke of RICHMOND, relative to the building of a tempo- rarj House of Lords ; and it seemed to be generally admitted that their
Lordships should wait until the new Houses of Parliament should be completed, and that the plan of erecting another temporary place of meeting for the Peers should be abandoned.
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