5 AUGUST 1848, Page 2

Debates anb VrOteel3ings fn Iparliament. STATE OF IRELAND.

In the House of Lords, on Thursday, Lord Bnotionast moved for copies of any proclamations of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland for the apprehen- sion of persons charged with treasonable offences: a motion which he backed with a discursive commentary on Irish affairs in general.

He paid high compliments to Lord Hardinge; and anticipated great public ad- vantage from his aid, not only in the field, but also in the councils of the Lord-Lien- tenant. He warned Government against being lulled into security by the present suppression of the rebellion; and he looked for the restoration of order only from a firm administration of the law. He avowed that he had derived most suggestive instruction from the report of Lord Monteagle's Committee on Colonization, and Advised their Lordships to study the document during the vacation. He strongly recommended colonization; drawing a distinction between that and mere emi- gration; andpointing out illustrations of its expediency, in the redun- dancy of population at home, the scanty peopling of boundless fertile lands in Canada, and the wholesale slaughter of sheep in Australia for want of shepherds. Touching upon the dangerous state of Ireland, the discussions as to the right to hold arms and resist authority, and the official delay to interfere with that dis- cussion, he strongly censured Mr. Labanchere's letter telling the Irish people that it was their right to carry arms. He advised Lord Lansdowne to take immediate steps for preventing the continuance of the Club system; and suggested that Parliament should not be prorogued for a long time; as it would have a good effect if it were known that the Legislature could interfere within a few hours.

The Earl of WICKLOW explained, that although the county of Wicklow had been proclaimed, it was not guilty of any disturbance; having been placed under proclamation only to prevent the transfer of arms from the disturbed and adjacent county of Dublin. He rejoiced that the rebellion had not been put down by Saxon" soldiers, but by the people of the country—the excellent Police force.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE assented to the motion, and replied to some points in the speech of Lord Brougham. "Although I am enabled, from all the information that has reached me on the 'subject, decidedly to concur in the opinion of my noble and learned friend, that this insurrection—if it deserves that name—is practically at an end; and that, whether owing to the incapacity or the cowardice of the leaders, the attempt to :excite the people to violence has signally failed,—although I concur fully in that opinion, still I feel bound to say, that I do not on that account think that there ought to be an entire cessation of that apprehension or that alarm Which the atrocious attempts of these parties were calculated to create, or a return to that confident assurance on the part of the Government -which would 'warrant a suspension of the precautionary measures that have been recently adopted. These measures, which every circumstance connected with the safety and welfare of this country has for some time called for, are in my opinion necessary now as much as ever. Let it not be supposed that because the means—the atrocious means—adopted to foment this insurrection have -shown themselves to be powerless for any effectual result, or for any good which these promoters of rebellion might have proposed to themselves by establishing a republic in that country, that therefore they may not have had, and may not still have, a power to effect an amount of mischief calculated to create alarm; that these means, although insufficient to accomplish the ends which the promoters had in view, may not still be sufficient to disturb and unsettle the country. I therefore think that my noble and learned friend has taken a correct view of the "mate of public affairs in Ireland, when he has admonished her Majesty's Govern- ment, and admonished Parliament, not to relax in their attention to the condition of that country. "I take this opportunity of stating, that it may become necessary, even before the close of this session of Parliament, to renew an act which my noble and learned friend is perhaps aware expires about this time, and which it bah been •customary to renew from time to time for a certain number of years, for the purpose of put- tiag unlawful associations and secret oaths in Ireland."

Lord Lansdowne had some satisfaction in feeling that the insurrection had come sufficiently to a head "to prove to all mankind the utter, the abominable false- hood of the reports circulated in that country, and which made a part of the -stock of policy made use of by these rebels, in endeavouring to bring their guilty designs to pass—that not only her Majesty's soldiery were affected with a disloyal spirit, and were not to be depended upon in the event of a conflict, but also that the police in that country were similarly affected." As to the prorogation, " it is not the intention-of her Majesty's Government to prorogue 'Parliament for more than a short time in the first instance: for al- though it is probable that no state of things may arise which would require that Parliament should-be assembled at that time, I think it necessary that we should have an opportunity of calling Parliament togetherif occasion requires." The Earl of DESART thought that if proper steps had been taken in time, the rebellion would not have assumed the importance which would seem to have attached to it from the fact of the late Governor-General of India having been sent over to take the command of the troops engaged in putting it down. The Duke of WELLINGTON was happy to learn that Government con- templated further measure to prevent the recurrence of such evils as have taken place- "' think it appears to be agreed to by all your Lordships who have spoken on this occasion—and I entreat of all your Lordships to reflect on this state of things —that a conspiracy still exists throughout Ireland—that bodies secretly formed, bodies among whom there is a secret combination, bodies trained in some degree to arms, bodies bound together by a description of organization that can be turned to military purposes—that these bodies do exist in the country, that they require the anxious observation and attention of the Government, and that Government must still continue in a state of preparation to resist all the consequences that may result from the existence of such bodies in that country, under the manage- ment and direction of those who have already occasioned this outbreak, which we all rejoice has been so easily put down. My Lords, in this contest I am convinced your Lordships will trust to her Majesty's Government to do everything that is called for, and that you will agree in the adoption of such measures as they may think necessary until the evils of which we complain disappear altogether." (Cheers.) Lord MONTEAGLE observed that the necessity of proclaiming the loyal county of Wicklow only proved the inefficiency of the Crime and Outrage Act; and he called for a permament law to restrict the possession of arras. The peaceable who are licensed to possess arms are robbed of them by the turbulent: in his own district he did not know of one person entitled to possess arms who had not been despoiled of them. Ile expressed his agreement with Lord Brougham on the subject of colonization.

The motion was agreed to.


On Monday, the LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the House should take into consideration the amendments to the Encumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, made by the Commons; Lord Cottenham strongly advising their adoption. He entertained great respect for the Court of Chaneery; but would not wil- lingly enter that Court as a suitor, nor advise his friend to do so: in his opinion, therefore, the power of sale without the intervention of the Court of Chancery was a valuable addition to the bill.

Lord STANLEY at great length criticized the additions unfavourably and condemned them as converting their Lordships' carefully prepared measure into a new bill. He offered, if supported, to move a reference to a Select Committee. Lord MONTEAGLE with great reluctance appeared to oppose the bill; but it was so completely altered by the Commons, that he concurred in the desire for a reference to a Select Committee, in order to procure the opinions of Irish lawyers on the new clauses. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH and the Earl of GLENGA.LL concurred. The Earl of WICKLOW, the Earl of Devoe, the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, and Lord LANGDALE, supported the amendments. On a division, the House re- solved, by 27 to 10, to consider the amendments; and they were agreed to without farther contest.

" Resimmah MEASURES ": ADJOURNED DEBATE. • The.House of Commons met at noon on Saturday, and sat till nearly half-past seven; chiefly engaged with the adjourned debate on Mr. Sharman Crawford's motion. The speeches were undistinguished by originality of topic or freshness of spirit: the feature of most interest, perhaps, was the declaration made, with unexpected emphasis, by Sir George Grey and Sir William Somerville, on the Irish Church question. Sir GEORGE GREY said— "I am not prepared to deny, but affirm, that the existence of an exclusive Protestant Church in Ireland (the Protestant Episcopalians being a small .mi- nority only of the population) is an anomaly which I think unjustifiable in its origin and indefensible now. I know no other country in Europe in which the same experiment has been made—in which the same attempt has been car- ried out; and lain quite prepared to say that the wisdom and policy of the attempt in Ireland might be judged of by its results. I think it an un- fortunate circumstance, materially affecting the peace of Ireland and the facility with which the Government can be carried on there, that 'the Ta- man Catholic clergy of the people of Ireland are dependent on those sources for their subsistence to which the honourable Member for Middlesex has referred."

• * * " I supported the Maynooth bill not only because the principle was j Tut on which it was founded, for improving the means of education for the Bo- man Catholic clergy, but because it involved the first recognition of the adman Catholic Church inflreland, and because I had hoped that it would lead to-fur- ther measures." * "I very much agree with the honourable Member for Limerick in believing that the time of the Ministry would come (and he cared not what Ministry it might be) when public opinion in this country, having altered through longer experience, would enable a well-matured and well-con sidered plan to be brought forward by such Ministry, and to receive the sanction of Parliament. I hope the honourable Member is not too sanguine in the expect- ation that that tame is not far distant: I for one shall hail its arrival, and, whe- ther in -office or oat of office, no one will be more ready than myself to concur in anypractical plan for the accomplishment of what I believe would be a great benefit to Ireland."

Sir WILLIAM Sommtvrt.LE agreed with Sir George Grey both as to what it was desirable to do and as to the difficulty of doing it. Whenever a plan should be brought forward for putting the establishment in Ireland on a proper footing, he would give his support to the motion, by whomsoever it was brought forward. The task of -those who proposed such a plan should be, not to demolish, but to construct. What was wanted was, that all classes should be put on a footing of equality, and that no heartburnings or jealousies should be allowed to exist. Whenever that task was undertaken, it ought to be undertaken in a confiding spirit. There should be no com- .promising, no bargaining, but right should be done • and he agreed with those who thought that when right'was done in this matter, more would be effected towards laying the foundations of peace, happiness, and tranquillity in Ireland. than could be done by any other measure.

Lord JoHN RUSSELL also indicated the direction of his convictions, in a correction of Mr. Newdegate. With respect to the Irish clergy, he could only add to those already given: the

tribute of his approbation of the excellence of their character and conduct. or had he ever stated that he considered the Established Church of Ireland as a grievance. What he stated was, that he thought the endowment of the clergy of the minority of the people, while there was no endowment of the clergy of the ma- jority, was a jest subject of complaint with the people of Ireland. The motion was opposed by Major BracKarx, Sir GEORGE Glum, and Mr. CLEstalrrs,—though Mr. Clements would have supported it if the di- vision had been taken before he had reflected. Mr. Mouo-ter JOHN O'Coswer.i. made a conciliatory speech; but would vote for the motion, as a proper rebuke to the Government and the House for not having passed remedial measures. Mr. Parmicrr SCROPE quoted from the Irish. Felon to show that the landlord and tenant question is at the root of all Irish discontent; and he advocated waste lands cultivation. Colonel DUNNE approved the spirit of the motion, but could not consent at the present juncture to press on Government the consideration of all the remedies suggested. Sir DEttima NORB.EYS expressed disappoinment at the late speech of Lord John Russell—that of Sir George Grey held out more hope of a settlement of the Church question. Mr. FBARGUS O'CONNOR rated the Irish landlords for pusillanimity, and maintained that if they did their duty they might themselves put a period to all the sufferings of Ire- land. Mr. NEWDEGATE and Mr. STAFFORD criticized the opinions ex- pressed and implied on the Church question in the speeches of the three Ministers who had spoken. Mr. REYNOLDS avowed himself in favour of every man's paying his own clergyman, as his own doctor. Mr. Gases was sorry Government should have raised so many hopes, and done so little to satisfy them. Mr. Gstarrart rose to apologize to the House and his con- stituents for not making a speech.

On a division, the motion was negatived, by 100 to 24.


On Monday and Tuesday, the Farmers' Estate Society (Ireland) Bill was considered in Committee. The Clauses from 1 to 25 were agreed to. Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER proposed amendments on succeeding clauses.

The object of the bill was, that the company should be enabled by voluntary contracts to purchase such estates as the owners were able to convey, but not from compulsion, and that the rights of those not contracting with them should not be prejudiced: Mr. Palmer therefore moved the insertion in clause 26, of words restricting the operation of conveyances under the act to such interests only in the land as the vendor might have assured to the purchaser without the passing of this act.

This amendment was agreed to. Clause 27 being proposed, Mr. PALMER moved " to omit in lines 39, 40, and 41, p. 7, the following words= Dis- charged from all formal and other estates, rights, titles, charges, and encum- brances whatsoever, of all persons whomsoever.'" Mr. REYNOLDS implored Mr. Palmer to throw no crotchets or obstacles in the way of the practical working of the bilL Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER replied by an exposition of the company's objects. The company was a joint-stock company, and the persons described were not to be liable beyond the amount of their shares. They had given no notices pre- vious to bringing in this bilL The power which was given was generally a power to purchase land, as part of the speculation of the company, and was to extend over the whole of Ireland. It authorized the parties to raise a capital of 260,000L Under the operation of this bill the company might purchase an unlimited quan- tity of land in Ireland. What would be the effect of the clause, as prepared, and of the next clause, which was most insidiously entitled in the margin, "Saving charges of land"? He had no hesitation in saying, that those two clauses would have perpetrated the most monstrous fraud which human imagination could conceive. The House had lately dealt with the complicated subject of encumbered estates; it had adopted proper and just measures -to enable persons to sell encumbered lands without the concurrence of all persons interested: an attempt is afterwards made to slip through the House a bill giving powers -be- yond the Encumbered Estates Act. By means of this bill and that act together, land may be seized and sold without notice to the encumbrancer, and behind his back, or in his face, and without the least protection to his interest. It was mat- ter of astonishment that any conveyancer should have dared to draw such a bill. Sir GEORGE GREY agreed that the words objected to went far beyond any power yet given in an act of Parliament, and excited just alarm. The House would do well to adopt the amendment. Mr. REYNOLDS objected to trammelling the bill so as to prevent the company from giving a clear and full title with the land it sold. He doubted the company's finding purchasers if these words were expunged.

The amendment was adopted; and the remaining clauses of the bill were agreed to.

Colonel DUNNE moved an additional clause, to the effect that if any persons should be evicted from the land, they should be supported by the company for the period of five years, or until the purchase-money was paid up. He knew that some clearance of estates should take place under this bill—it would be useless without it: but it was not fair that the cost of those persons should be cast upon the surrounding districts. Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE opposed the clause, as directly 0Dntrary to all the principles upon which the Poor-law was based. Colonel THOMPSON deemed the bill a bosom for sweeping off the land the small tenantry of Ire- land. -He must save his conscience and let Members know what they were about. Eviction in Ireland was more or less checked by the danger of a gun: but how was a peasant, from the ditch into which he had been driven to die, to shoot a company? Sir GEORGE GREY saw nothing to object to in the principle of the amendment; but it provided no rating ma- chinery. Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE warmly objected. A landlord has only to strike a poor-rate and evict as much as he pleases—for about a shilling a head he might get rid of all his tenantry. Mr. HENLEY NORM not support the third reading without the amendment; without it injustice and misery would take place. Mr. Mostaw.. said, the company would not buy land on which cottier holdings abounded. After much further conversation, in the course of which Mr. CwattLEs Burxwit expressed his approval of the principle of the clause, it was withdrawn, that it might be amended in shape and proposed hereafter.

When the report was brought up, on Thursday, several amendments were proposed. In the discussion on them, Mr. MONSELL stated that he proposed to give persons evicted the same compensation to which they would be entitled under a railway bill. He also explained, that the com- pany had not been got up from motives of pecuniary speculations, but to supply a want which everybody feels to exist in Ireland—that of a class of yeomanry.


On Monday, the Lords took into consideration the reasons of the Com- mons for disagreeing to their Lordships' amendments. The Marquis of Cr.aeratca.anz moved that the amendments be not insisted on; grounding Ins motion on the fact that the Commons had, without division or even

discussion, unanimously concluded that the Lords' amendments were inex- pedient. Several Peers objected to the motion, especially as made on the ground laid by Lord Clanricarde: but at last the objections were aban- doned, and the motion was agreed to.


On Tuesday, Mr. Hoasmax brought forward his motion relative to Church property held on lease; moving,

" That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be pleased to take into her consideration the whole condition of the Established

Church as regards its temporalities; that she will direct an inquiry to be made into the full value of all Church property ender lease, and cause such measures to be prepared as may make the revenues of the Church more folly conducive to the religions teaching of the people." On former occasions, Mr. Horsman said, he had met with so general a con- currence in his suggestions that he thought measures relating to these matters must soon come under consideration: it was right, therefore, once more to revert to the subject, in order that the measures might be preceded by full and recent discussion, and that the Government might be apprized of the feelings and ex- pectations of the public. Our legislation on ecclesiastical matters has been in-

effective, because we have laid down no clear definition of the ends and uses of an established church. He .protested equally against the doctrines, that of r

array of ecclesiastical dignitaries, with their large revenues and larger patronage, powers and privileges, are a part of the constitution, a dignity of the crown, or a portion of the state; that ecclesiastical incomes are possessed without re- sponsibility, or for purposes which the laity are not to judge or interfere with; and that patronage is mere property, and in relation to it the Church a mere in- strument to gain temporal power and prizes of honour and wealth. He laid

down the simple proposition, that our National Church, as established by law,

exists for one purpose only, namely, for the religions instruction of the people— the poorest and humblest of the people. For this was our parochial system esta- blished, our ministry endowed, our cathedrals reared and dedicated, and our dig- nitaries multiplied and prelates ordained, with powers and possessions bestowed and secured. Whatever obstructs or helps not towards this end should be lopped away. Applying this test, " How far," said Mr. Horsman, " does the English Church Establishment, admitting its constitution to be unimpeachable, adapt the material means committed to its charge to the full and effectual accomplishment of the end which the Church and the State alike have in view ? They could not contemplate

that Church without delight and a good deal of instruction: it presented itself in contrast with the crash of systems abroad, and even their decay at home; whilst in

Scotland and Ireland the Church as established by law was the Church of the minority, in England it was the National Church." All parties, whether belong- ing to the Establishment or not, must admit that when the State has set apart a large endowment for a specific purpose, it is the duty of every citizen to en- deavour that such purpose is wisely and honestly earned out. " Now, by the returns before the House, it appeared that the Church temporalities amount to 4,500,0001., or, if they were taken at 5,000,0001., it was probably under the truth. Not only might they bear comparison with the revenues of any other church, but they were greater than the whole revenue of almost all the minor states of Europe. They were greater than the whole revenue of Belgium or Naples; more than three-fourths of Holland or Spain; double that of Portugal; sad more than half the whole expenditure of Prussia." In so rich a church, the very reverse of what should be is really the case. In no church are the people so little religiously taught: in none are there such ex- tremes of wealth and indigence, of piety and heathenism. Having on other oc- casions examined that portion of the subject, Mr. Horsman would now say no more as to the revenues the Church enjoys: he passed on to give the House some idea of what she annually throws away. He believed that very few persons had any idea of the great value of the Church estates that were let on lease. There was no return of their value; and, unless the Government undertook that inquiry, he believed they would never have such a return. A Committee was appointed ten years ago to make that inquiry; but, whilst some persons gave them the in- formation they required, others refused. The present Archbishop of Canterbury,

then Bishop of Chester, said that the gross income of his see was 8,9001., whilst the rental of the estates under lease was 16,2361., making a loss of 12,336/ a year. The late Archbishop of Canterbury gave a return stating that his gross income

was 22,0001, but that the rental of his estates was 52,0001. The late Arch- bishop of York stated his income to be 13,0001., and the rental 41,0001. Others were given; but it was not necessary that he should quote them—those he had referred to were sufficient to establish prima facie evidence of what he contended for.

The facts collected by this Committee were submitted to Mr. Finlaison the emi- nent actuary, to form the basis of calculations. Mr. Finlaison reported, that whilst the rental now received by the Church was only 262,0001., it was actually worth 1,400,0001.; and that must be a very low calculation, as the lessors them- selves stated the value of the Church property under lease to them at 35,000,0001. He then suggested two modes by which the Church might obtain the full advan- tage of that property,—either by letting the leases ran out, their average dura- tion being twenty-four years, at the end of which period the Church would come into the possession of that revenue of 1,400,0001., or to sell the reversions on the leases; but, as in the former case there would be no fines during the twenty-four years, the incomes of the episcopal and collegiate bodies would have to be made up by loans on the security of those estates; and, considering the difference between what they enjoyed independent of fines, and what their income was to be under the regulations of the act of Parliament, and also considering that the present

surplus of the Episcopal fund was 16,0001., the amount of the deficiency at the

end of the twenty-four years would be less than two years' rental of the estates, and, perhaps, under proper management there would be no deficiency at all. By the other mode, Mr. Finlaison calculated that the income to be derived from the sale of the reversions would be 500,0001. Mr. Horsman thought there was every reason to suppose that the surplus income would be no less than 750,0001 By either of these plans an enormous available surplus now lost to the Church is shown.

By the ecclesiastical constitution of England every parish should have its minister; but how is that constitution respected now? ' Is it the fact that the parochial clergy are adequately paid; that they have residences within their parish, and the care of but one district? Of the 10,500 benefices that now exist in England, there are now no fewer than 3,454 of which the clergy are non-resi- dent; 4,200 are held in plurality; 4,500 have no residence at all. 3,400 have under 1501. a year; 6,800 under 3001. a year; and nearly two.thirds of the whole have under 6001. a year. What a picture do these facts present of inadequate religious teaching, and of the parochial clergy defrauded of that provision which the piety of a former race endeavoured to secure for them."

He had shown an available surplus of 500,0001. at the lowest. "Now, consider what might be done with that sum. There are 6,800 livings under 8001. a year.

It is a reproach and a scandal to the country that a large body of the clergy, men

of education, and having such sacred- duties to perform, have incomes under the pitiful sum Of 8001.; and he would not stop until he had used every effort to re-

move that scandal. Of those 6,800 livings less than half are under public pa- tronage; and to raise them to 3001. a year would require 442,0001, To rai-e those in private patronage to the same amount, the patron contributing one-half, would

require 275,2651.; so that by the outlay of 700,0001 every parish might have a resident clergyman with at least 300/. a year. But there would also be this advantage iq so applying the surplus revenues, that if no living were under 8001 a year, there "Allot be no difficulty in enforcing the law as to parsonage-houses,

and they would have what now coat 4,000,0001. or 5,000,0001,—a parsonage- house in every parish. But at present pariahes are very unequally divided. There are 300 or 400 with population under 300 and an income under 3001.; whilst there are 500 with incomes also under 3001. but a population of 3,000. These might be more equally divided, so that there might be a clergyman in every parish of a manageable size, with an adequate provision."

On a former occasion Mr. Horsman had ventured to call attention to the faulty mode of payment of the Episcopal incomes. The House concurred in that view, and the noble Lord at the head of the Government said that the law Amid un- do revision. Upon a subsequent occasion he proposed a fusion of the Episcopal and common fund. The House again concurred in his view that there was no justice in that distinction; and once more the noble Lord assented to the general feeling of the House. Upon a more recent occasion, he went at great length into the state of the Cathedrals and Chapters, and what he felt to be the abases of them. Then again the House felt his view was one in which it generally con- curred; and the noble Lord again promised him inquiry. If all those measures were reasonable and those suggestions unobjectionable, he felt that there was still less objection to be made to that which he brought forward now, because he had high authority for it—an authority the House would respect. The inquiry he now suggested was the same inquiry insisted on, but imperfectly carried out, by the noble Lord himself in the Committee he appointed ten years ago. The pre- sent would be a most happy time for the inquiry. Everything relating to the Church now excites warm and general interest; the clergy. never were more zeal- ous, the laity more active, the Parliament more united in opinion. No party strifes intervene. The Government and the majority of the House have alike a feeling that there are dangers about the Church which ought to be and can be now averted; and no means would be safer or wiser for this end than the strengthening of that Church in the hearts of the people, so that they should feel it to be a blessing in its more abundant ministrations.

Sir EDWARD BUXTON seconded the motion; thinking that Mr. Hors- man's suggestions would tend to strengthen the Established Church of these realms.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL expressed great satisfaction with Mr. Horsman's speech; and gave him every credit for a sincere desire to improve the Church, and for bringing forward the subject without admixture of matter to which any objection could be taken. He deemed Mr. Elorsman's proposal to be certainly well worthy of considera- tion; but the subject is encompassed by difficulties of a practical nature. The property of the Church is certainly of greater value than the value which the clergy receive from it. There had been a good deal of inquiry into the mode in which that property might be improved; and a Commission had been sitting' which he was assured was about to make a report on the subject. He should be sorry, therefore, that any particular scheme should be adopted until he had seen that report, and inquired what was the nature of the recommendations which it contained. It was obvious that if they were to take the scheme of the honour- able and learned gentleman, based upon Mr. Finlaison's calculations, and allow the Church leases to run out, then twenty-four years must elapse before they would get the full value of that property; and during the whole of that time they would have to make good the income derived by the Bishops and Chap- ters from that source. Then, again, if they were to part with the fee-simple of the reversion, he thought that they would incur some danger of losing the income which might be expected from the increasing value of Church property; and thereby do an injury to the Church thirty or forty years hence, when the increase of population might require increased church assistance. Such was the nature of the general and practical difficulties attending this question. At the same time, he had no hesitation in saying that he thought the honourable and learned gen- tleman was perfectly well founded in his main proposition, namely, that they had a right to look to the increased value of Church property, and that such increased value ought to be applied to augment the incomes of the clergy and provide spirit- ual instruction for the people.

With respect to the immediate motion before the House, Lord John confessed he did not think it advisable to address the Queen for a Commission. " He was quite ready to issue instructions for an inquiry into an approximate value of this property; but he did not think that the appointment of a Commission was desir- able. It would be recollected that some years ago, certain of the Bishops refused to give a fall account of the property they held to a Commission of Inquiry. Now there was no great inconvenience in that; but he thought it was not a becoming position for the Crown to be placed in, when it directed an inquiry to be made into the full value of Episcopal property, and received a refusal from some of the Bish- ops to communicate any information on the subject. Whether full and compul- sory powers of inquiry should be given by act of Parliament, was another ques- tion, and not the question now before the House. But he hoped it would satisfy the honourable and learned gentleman when he declared, that he should treat this subject in a similar spirit with that in which he had addressed himself to the other subjects which the honourable and learned gentleman had brought before the House; that he would direct an inquiry to be made into the value of Church property; and that he was of opinion that the property of the Church should be made more available for the purposes of the Church than it now was." Lord John hoped Mr. Horsman would not press for a division; which if carried might pat the Crown in the invidious position of calling for returns which some parties might refuse to furnish.

Sir ROBERT INoLis observed, that Mr. Horsman had gained a bloodless victory; one which might well satisfy a more ambitious mind. Assuming there would be no division, he would but make a passing remark on one or two points—

Mr. Horsman spoke of the income of the Church as amounting to 4;500,0001, and Sir Edward Buxton stated that income at 4,000,0001. Now, was it or was it not true, according to the returns, that the amount of tithes received by the pa- rochial clergy did not exceed 2,300,0001.; and that in order to make tip an amount in any degree approaching 4,000,0001. it was necessary to add a sum of not less than 765,0001., which was passing away quietly into the pockets of laymen. He wished the House to remember, that whatever the Church gained by resuming held under lease, the lessees would lose; and it should be recollected that long series of years this property had been considered as much the beneficial property paelly property of the lessees as any copyhold land in the kingdom. lie was not saying anything about the right to this property, which he in common with the honour- able and learned gentleman considered to belong to the Church; but he referred merely to the practice which had prevailed. Those remarks being made, Sir Robert Inglis added his opinion that Mr. Hors- man had stated his case very fairly: there had been no reference to individuals which could give pain to anybody, and no assertion of a principle which he thought a true Churchman ought not to maintain. Sir Robert joined in the hope that Mr. Hinman would not press his motion to a division.

Mr. GouLnuaN, having had the misfortune to embark more than once in contentious discussion with Mr. Horsman on the subject of this motion, was happy to express his pleasure at the tone and temper of that night's speech. Much had been done in late years; but Mr. Goulburn was still ready to concur in any measure that would render Church property more available for the religious teaching of the people.

Mr. PAGE WOOD expressed his opinion that the fears of a difficulty in procuring information by Royal Commission were groundless. He neither feared a desire nor allowed a right to refuse the information demanded. Mr. Wood pointed to the statute of Elizabeth, authorizing Church leases " at the accustomed yearly rent," as the root of the present evils. The 18th of Elizabeth, thanks to the sagacity of Burleigh, steered clear of mischief, by reserving a third of the rents of College leases in a corn-rent. On another part of the subject Mr. Wood stated a fact in illustration of the political benefit of extended religious education. In the large town of Leeds, where an active and enterprising clergyman (Dr. Hook) discharged his important duties amid a population of 150,000 or 160,000, there were in attendance on his schools 12,000 children and 800 Sunday teachers. Daring the disturbances that had taken place in the North, and while great agitation existed, so that it was necessary to call out the special constables and take other measures to preserve the peace, there was not in the town of Leeds the slightest disturbance. There were many persons in the receipt of not more than 2a. to 3s. a week for the support of their families; yet those persons were perfectly still and quiet. Lord JOHN RUSSELL repeating his hope that Mr. Horsman would not divide, Mr. HoEsmAN yielded: knowing the straightforwardness of Lord John's character, he would rely on his assurance; but he strongly hoped that no opportunity of making the inquiry would be missed during the re cess: indeed, he should rise on the first night of next session and inquire what measures the House might expect as the result of the councils held in the recess.

The motion was by leave withdrawn.

SUNDAY TRADHIGL On Wednesday, the Sale of Beer Bill was read a third time.

Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY moved the omission throughout the bill of the words " before half-past twelve o'clock in the afternoon": he desired that the restriction should simply be during the morning service. On a division, the motion was rejected, by 59 to 24.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON moved the omission throughout the bill of all words that related to the closing of public-houses till the ending of divine service in the morning. Negatived by 58 to 24.

Mr. HoRE moved the omission after the words " any house or place of public resort for sale" of the words "ready-made coffee, tea." Sir GEORGE GREY opposed the motion. The clause, he said, is deemed necessary in its present shape, and is approved by the respectable coffeehouse-keepers. The motion MO supported by Mr. OSBORNE, Mr. WAKLEY, and Colonel THOMPSON. On a division, the amendment was carried, by 44 to 34.


On Wednesday, Sir WILLIAM CLAY moved the second reading of the Remedies against the Hundred Bill. He explained the present state of the law.

By an act passed in the 57th year of George the Third, a remedy was given against the hundred for damages inflicted by riotous assembly, and full compen- sation could be recovered. But by acts passed in the year 1827, repealing the previous law, and to some extent repealing each other, the law has been totally altered, and the Judges now hold that there is no remedy unless the rioters who have done partial damage contemplated a felony—that is, a total destruction of the building. The acts of 1827 did not extend to Scotland; so that the law of George the Third remains in force there now. Sir William Clay desired to assi- milate the law of the two countries, and return to the 57th Geo. IlL cap. 19; and this is the drift of the present bill.

Sir GEORGE Gum- opposed the bill.

The law had been advisedly altered from its old state by Sir Robert Peel in 1827; and Sir George did not desire to reenact the 57th of George the Third. At the same time, he was willing that a better teat be enacted than that the offence be a technical felony.

Mr. BANKES, Mr. BERNAL, Mr. SPOONER, Captain PECHELL, Mr. CARD- WELL, and Mr. HENLEY, pressed for some alteration of the present law. Sir GEORGE GREY at last consented to affirm the principle of the bill, by reading it a second time; but only on the distinct understanding that the House should not go into Committee.

Bill read a second time.


On Tuesday, Mr LABOUCHERE proposed a resolution to enable him to bring in a bill for making some alteration in the law as regards steam na- vigation. All steam-boats going to sea must have their machinery inspected by survey- ors, under certain penalties; but there are no penalties binding on the masters of river steamers, though an inspection of the latter is as important as of the former to the public. It is intended to supply this want in the law. In addition, it is proposed to give the Board of Trade a general power to fix the maximum of pas- sengers that each boat may carry. Some cases have lately occurred in which the most dangerous overcrowding of boats has taken place; and interference is called for, lest some great calamity should happen. DEr. HENLEY assented without doubts to the first part of the measure; but hoped that the second part would contain some certain principle on which the Board of Trade should act.

The cheap river steamers are now rendering an enormous convenience to the Metropolis, and their cheapness is to some extent necessarily connected with crowding Of passengers: if this be interfered with from the apprehensions of ner- vous gentlemen, the cheapness will be done away with.

The resolution was agreed to, and leave given to bring in the bill. .Sub- sequently it was brought in, and read a first time.


On Monday, in Committee on the Sugar-duties, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made a communication of new changes in the Ministerial arrangements.

He was sorry to state, that discussions which he himself and Mr. James Wil- son had held with the sugar-refiners led Ministers to conclude that at present they cannot bring in a measure to allow the refining of sugar in bond. The main object sought by refining in bond is to get rid of the disadvantages of what are called "the uniform duties upon all classes," and to substitute an equivalent ad valorem duty. If the produce of the refiner were of one kind, the matter would be easy to deal with; but the produce is of four or five different kinds, and the apportion- ment of the duty becomes a question of cx.reme nicety and difficulty. Govern- merit has spared no pains to get information. Mr. James Wilson and the Chair, man of Excise lately spent seven hours in discussion of the question with a depu tation from the sugar-refiners, and also three or four hours in going over some of the largest establishments in London. In the end, they reported that they saw no possibility of adequately protecting the revenue, but by placing such restric- tions on the refiners—watching most strictly every stage of their manufacture, and interfering with every process—as would enhance the cost of manufacture. They found also that it would be necessary that the system should be compulsory; and the refiners themselves concurred in that view. Sir Charles Wood hesitated to impose these restrictions, and proposed to abandon the intention to admit sugar to be refined in bond for home consumption.

With respect to the distinction between double-refined and single-refined sugar, Sir Charles found it would be a great advantage to the trade to compound the two duties into one. It will be fair that the duty of the sugar when refined should be the same as that on the raw sugar: Sir Charles had indeed calculated the sum so that the former shall rather exceed the latter.

Sir Charles proposed a resolution, that candy, brown, or white refined sugars, or sugar made equal thereto, the growth and produce of any British possession into which the importation of foreign sugar is prohibited, shall pay import-duty for every hundredweight, of 17s. 4d, after the 10th July 1848; and a sum less than this by Is. 4d. each year, from the 5th July of the years 1849, 1850, and 1851, when the duty shall rest at 13s. 4d.

Mr. BARKLY expressed astonishment at the announcement about refining in bond.

This was one of the " boons " repeatedly represented before the Sugar-Plant- ing Committee as in store for the West Indian interests. The preliminaries of the measure had been settled, and interested parties in the City had even been favoured with a paper purporting to set out the heads of the arrangement. Only an Saturday last, Sir Charles Wood intimated that he had changed his mind, and that he would allow no refining in bond. It is impossible to judge so lowly of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's capabilities for his office, as to suppose that he first thought of ascertaining whether the measure were practicable many weeks after its preliminaries had been arranged. With regard to the sudden dis- covery that it is wrong to have two rates of duty on refined sugar, the result will be to add 2s. a hundredweight to the refiner's protection. Of the seven ad- vantages enumerated by the Economist as bestowed by the Government scheme on the West Indies, they are likely to get but two this session. These changes are but fresh instances of that extraordinary vacillation in commercial matters on the part of the Government which will in future prevent the trading interests of the country from placing any reliance whatever upon official declarations made in the House of Commons.

Mr. CARDWELL, on behalf of the West India Liverpool Association, protested strongly against the change of measures. Mr. GOULBURN thought it extremely unfortunate that expectations had been held out before it was accurately ascertained if machinery existed for carrying them into effect.

Sir Wu.Luat CLAY, as representative of the largest portion of the refin- ing trade of the kingdom, stated his knowledge that, after a calm and patient investigation of the difficulties of the subject, the London trade had concluded that no plan yet proposed would obviate the objections to the proposed alterations. He had a petition to present from twenty-eight firms against the scale of duty to be applied to refined sugar; but by their authority he now withheld it, as they felt that the Government had mani- fested a fair disposition to meet their just claim.

Mr. JAMES WILSON spoke in favour of, Mr. HENRY BALLLIE against the resolution. It was agreed to without division.

Sir CHARLES WOOD then moved a resolution imposing the following im- port-duties on sugars the growth and produce of any other British posses- sion.

Rutty, on candy, brown, or white refined sugars, or sugars made equal there- ta,l'or every hundredweight, 22a. from the 10th July 1848; and 200.4d., 18s. 8d., 17s., 16s. 4d., 15s. 4d., and 13s. 4d., from the 5th July in the succeeding years 1849-1854, when the duty shall become stationary. Secondly, on brown clayed sugars, or sugars equal thereto and not equal to white clayed, for every hundredweight, 17s. from the 10th July 1848; and 15s. 8d, 14s. 4d., 13s., 12s. 5d., Hs. 10d., and 10s. from the 5th July in the suc- ceeding years 1849-1854, when the duty shall become fixed.

Mr. BARKLY moved as an amendment, to insert a duty of 10s. on cane- juice. Sir CaaELxs Woon approved the principle of this proposition, but had not yet got enough information to fix a scale of duties for cane-juice. On a technical objection raised by the SPEAKER, the amendment was with- drawn; and the resolution was agreed to as proposed. CHAIRMAN proceeded to put the third resolution, and read as fol- 1

"And from and after the respective days next hereinafter mentioned', on sugar the growth and produce of any foreign country, and on all sugar not otherwise charged with duty, the duties following (that is to say)."

Lord GEORGE BENTINCK rose, and, before the scale of duties should be read, moved the omission of the words " and on all sugar not otherwise charged with duty," in order to propose a scale of duties of his own.

Confessing that he could not avoid admiring the debonnaire air with which Sir Charles Wood announced disappointment to the hopes of the West Indians, he could not but feel great edification at the light and trivial way in which be made admissions amounting to a pleading guilty to the twenty-three blunders which Lottl George lately exposed in the Government resolutions; and he indignantly com- mented on the cool cruelty of the course Ministers have taken. Their incapacity, too, was a spectacle to the House. What must be the feelings of persons engaged in trade in this country, when they see Ministers: coming before Parliament and proposing a measure containing a quarter of a hundred of arithmetical blunders, and a plan for refining sugar in bond which they found, on consulting their officers, could not be carried into effect?

Lord George alluded to the point respecting the admission of Dutch refined sugars under the act of 1846. It is said to be recently discovered that these sugars cannot be taxed at the high rates for some time levied, because of the rights of Holland under reciprocity treaties. But Lord George had by good luck caught tripping that skilful tactician the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and had got from him the admission that no correspondence on the subject had passed between the two Governments, at least since the 29th of May, whereas Lord John Russell made his propositions on the 16th of June. It is obvious, therefore, that the treaty ground is an idle pretence, put forward to favour Mr. James Wilson's scheme of letting in Dutch sugars at a lower rate of duties.

Mr. LABOUCHERE defended the impugned faith of Government regarding the treaties, and insisted that we are bound both in honour and interest to concede the claim made by Holland regarding her refined sugars. Mr. JAMES WILSON contended for this interpretation of the treaty rights of Holland. He quoted from private documents statements to prove that the drawback en- joyed by the Dutch refiners on exporting their produce refined in bond is not of the beneficial effect assumed in this country. Indeed, a project of law is now be- fore the Belgian Chambers, and likely to be passed, which will abolish this draw- back, and put the Belgian refiner in the same position with the English refiner. Mr. DISRAELI protested against the habitual exhibition of private and mysterious tables of figures by Mr. James Wilson.

He reminded Mr. Wilson of his changed position: as a member of Government he mast not now indulge in those Munchausen statistics which he might indulge is while he sat below the gangway, and was simple Member for Westbury. The Government ought to have made themselves masters of the subject through the information which they could command from our Ministers and Consuls in foreign Parts, and ought not to rest their case on anonymous correspondence. Mr. GLansroNE balanced the evidence on the moot question whether there is or is not a considerable bounty in favour of the Dutch refiner on his exported produce. On the one side are demonstrative proofs; on the other presumptions. If the aatstence of the bounty could be disproved, then the Government would do well to introduce competition; but until that could be done, it would be unfair and

unwise to call on private individuals to struggle with their limited ramose against the resources of a foreign state. The other speakers were-for the amendment, Mr. Gomm:ran, Mr. HERRIES, Mr. HUDSON; against it, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, Mr. M'Gnitooa, and Mr. URQUHART. On a division, the amendment was negatived, by 87 to 34. The resolution, the reading of which had been stopped, was then read in eztenso by the Chairman, and adopted by the House without further discussion.

By it the following duties are leviable "on sugar the growth and produce of any foreign country, and on all sugar not otherwise charged " by the resolutions -on candy, brown, or white refined sugars, or sugars made equal thereto, for every hundredweight, 26s. 8d. from the 10th of July 1848; and 24s. &I. 22s. &L, 20s. 8d., 19s. 4d., 17s. 4d., and las. 4d, from the 5th July in each of the suc- ceeding years 1849-1854, when the duty. shall become stationary.

A resolution was then passed for granting the following drawbacks on the exportation of refined sugars- Upon refined loaves, or lumps perfectly clarified and stove-dried and of uni- form whiteness throughout, or on such sugar crushed, or on sugar-candy, for every hundredweight, 16s. 4d. from the 10th July 1848; and 15s., 13s. 9d, and 12s. 6d. in each of the succeeding years 1849-1851, when the duty shall become stationary.

Upon " bastards," or refined sugar broken in lumps, or such sugar crushed, for every hundredweight, 13s. from the 10th July 1848; and 123., 11s., and 10s. in each succeeding year 1849-1851; when the duty shall become stationary.

The House went into Committee on the Sugar-duties Bill, on Thursday, to incorporate in the bill the amended schedules. Lord GEORGE BEIrrnsusr insisted that there were several new blunders in the altered schedules,- mainly on the ground that the duties were not calculated on a precisely uniform ratio: and he moved several amendments, substituting other figures. The amendments were negatived by decisive majorities; and the bill passed through the Committee.

POOR-LAW AMENDMENT. On Saturday, Mr. CHARLES BULLER, in Com- mittee on the Poor-law Union Charges (No. 2) Bill, proposed-among other changes that he had notified, and that passed without dissent-to omit clause 5, which declares that paupers who have had an industrial residence of five years in a parish shall be irremoveable. Mr. CLEMENTS, Mr. Monosx Joule O'CON- NELL, Mr. GROGAN, and Mr. SADLIER, opposed the withdrawal of the clause; and a discussion arose. Mr. Burmsn regretted much that the clause was ever intro- irritating subjects, and it was now withdrawn more in view of that possibility duced, the law being really not uncertain on the subject: its retention would open


than in deference to opposition by English Members. Mr. MoEsELL advised hie friends to allow the withdrawal of the clause; but they persisted in their opposi- tion. Mr. BULLER finally bowed to their decision, and allowed the Chairman to report progress. On Monday, the bill was committed pro formi, in order that it might be re- printed with Mr. Buller's alterations.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS ADMINISTRATION. The LORD CHANCELLOR Stated on Monday, that he had so altered the Minor Charitable Trusts Regulation Bill, considering the lateness of the session, that he hoped it would provoke no discus- sion. It would be extremely inconvenient to postpone certain parts of the bill.

COPYHOLDS ENFRANCHISEMENT. On Monday, the LORD CHANCELLOR, yielding to objections urged by the Bishop of LONDON and Lord STANLEY, re- luctantly announced that he should not press the Enfranchisement of Copyholds Bill.

LAW OF MARRIAGE. On Wednesday, Mr. STUART WORTLEY stated that ho abandoned the hope of bringing this subject before the House in the present session. He strongly felt the need of new legislation, and believed the Commis- sioners unanimously concurred with him.. lie trustel that persons would be put on their guard against contracting marriages held to be absolutely null and void, and would have the caution to wait till next session.

PUBLIC HEALTH. On Thursday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that it was his intention to proceed with the consideration of the Lords' amendments to the Pub- lic Health Bill at five o'clock on Monday, in a Committee of the whole House; and he wished to know if there was any objection in point of form to such a course. The SPEAKER was not aware that there was any objection to the course proposed. In reply to Mr. HENLEY, the SPEAKER said that some of the amend- ments that had been made would violate the privileges of that House; but it would be for the House to decide whether they would adhere their privileges or not. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that Lord Morpeth proposed to disagree with some of the amendments, to concur in others.

BURIAL rtt TOWNS. On Monday, replying to Mr. URQUHART, who coin''. plained of offensive odours from St. Margaret's Churchyard, Lord Mora-Ems stated that he hoped to bring in a bill on intramural burials next session. Mr. Gout.- BURN was understood to say that the authorities of St. Margaret's are bound by engagements with Government to remove their churchyard. FISHING-ROD QUALIFICATION. Mr. GOULBUBN called attention on Monday, on the proposed reading of the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill, to a highly amusing and ludicrous Mature of the bill. The qualification of those who shall elect conserva- tors of the fisheries is to be the owning of a fishing-rod! Sir WILLIAM SOMER. FLUX thought it a very good and by no means a ludicrous qualification, that those who use the practice of capturing fishes should find the money and control the regulations for their conservancy. KAFIR WAR. In reply to Mr. OSBORNE, on Thursday, Mr. Fox MAULE stated that the Duke of Wellington bad for some time been preparing a list of officers engaged in the Kafir war, to submit to her Majesty, some of them for pro- motion and others for honorary distinction.

THE NORTH CHESHIRE ELECTION COMMITTEE resolved, on Monday, that meat, drink, and entertainment, had been provided to a great extent for the voters at the last election • but there was no evidence to connect the sitting Member with such provision: therefore, George Cornwall Legb, Esq., was duly elected to serve in the present Parliament for North Cheshire.