Hiss interview

'Nixon's hurt the country far more than he's hurt me'

Larry Adler

In last week's issue, Alger Hiss talked to Larry Adler about Nixon's political career and his recent downfall. The conversation now continues. Larry Adler's questions are in italics.

Larry Adler: You probably know about the book Friendship and Fratricide?

Alger Hiss: Sure Dr Zeligs talked to me and wrote to me over a period of seven years.

Well, when I first got interested in your case, the most fascinating thing about it, the thing that struck me at once and Zeligs goes into this was the story that Chambers translated, by Franz Werfel.

It's a book called Class Reunion.

Yes. And the theme of it seemed to lay out the whole Hiss case.

This is what led up to the psychiatric aspect of it. We got word, interestingly enough, from Joseph Alsop. I'd known Joe we didn't have the same political opinions but he sent word to me be sure to read Friendship and Fratricide because this book describes Chambers's whole pattern. Alsop said, "Your side must know about it." It was very kind of him. It was the first tip we got. Now, did you ever see a BBC documentary called "Hollywood on Trial?' About the Hollywood Ten?

Yes. I not only saw it, I wrote a piece about it for the New Statesman.

Well, you would have seen Nixon's face in that. That's one reason why no US network would join with the producers when they started the thing, because they realised it would not be friendly to Nixon. And therefore it's never been shown in America.

But what about this picture Milhous? I've seen that

That was done by an American in America, no question of prohibitive fees for use of material. Now ITV is thinking of doing a film on my ease. I don't know whether Nixon's demise, if we can call it that, will make it more interesting or less interesting. There's very little interest in the States right now in my case. I'm rather surprised that you even wanted to interview me.

I'm not. There was one other moment when I nearly accused Nixon of a sense of humour. When he made that bathetic speech to his staff and said something about the country needing good plumbers. Wow!

That was a real Freudian slip. I didn't see it but I understand it was something to see, the faces of his staff. Nobody snickered. Nobody even flinched. Now there's divorce from reality.

Tell roe something else how did you cope financially when your troubles began?

It's very difficult for people to meet political charges, just because of the cost. I was told a number of times by young people who had been slandered, that they realised that my family went into debt. I, luckily, had some money I'd made as President of the Carnegie Endowment, and I wasn't a big spender. But it took every cent that we could scrape together, and then people even sent in contributions, without my knowledge. We did not seek contributions, though we certainly needed them. Also, remember, as a lawyer, I had lawyer friends, and they worked for me for practically nothing. That case must have cost $100,000. What young person can undergo that kind of expense to defend himself? many of them just took the Fifth Amendment.

When Nixon's daughter was making those impassioned defences of her father, do you think she believed what she was saying?

Oh, I would assume so. She doesn't impress me as a dissembler. I think it was just immature, inexperienced, misplaced loyalty. She must be terribly broken up now, particularly with the admission of guilt except that in his public statements, remember, he has in effect admitted nothing. Just that he lost . his political support he's still available as a figurehead for the silent Nixon supporters and he can always say it was an almost Hitlerian stab in the back. But that he didn't do anything.

But on the tapes there he is giving orders to stonewall it, to take the Fifth Amendment, to do anything to keep Watergate quiet Well, maybe Julie's a non-reader.

You know my favourite figure of the whole thing? The heroine of Watergate? Martha Mitchell.

Yes. And most people didn't believe her. She said there was a black book that her husband was a scapegoat She just sounded like a crazy dame shooting off her mouth. I'm ashamed that I thought so.

So am I, I had the same feeling. But really, she was a woman of courage And in her way, integrity Definitely.

And her husband had none.

Poor man! But how he has stuck by Nixon how do you explain that? Why do you think Mitchell has been a fall guy? Because remember, he was called the Big Enchilada in those tapes he was treated with no respect.

Nobody was treated with respect Nixon respects no one.

Many papers had foreseen that Nixon would soon be out, by resigning, or impeachment and Newsday, which is now a big newspaper, called me. I said, "I'm only competent to write one piece about Nixon and that is about his English." Because I have never heard that kind of vulgarity of speech anywhere except in jail.

The

;s :d4 Spectator October 519 Jailhousepeopleusing vuigarcch es, I Nixon's responsible for giving me that education. I know more than most how such people talk. So I said if you can get me the full tape?; not chopped up ones but though they saw they'd try they didn't before I left the States, ot that ielbfetdhey didn't care about my expert

h ise in

Why can't he use a simple phrase like "tell the truth?" He can't. He has to say something awful like "go the hangout road."

Oh, you mean he only uses vulgar cliches?

You don't refuse to answer, you "stonewall." You didn't lie, your previous statements became "inoperative" that's the greatest whopPer,f

• all. And -he didn't lie, he mis-spoke himself,, As if he were incontinent or something. Oh there's one fascinating man to me, I wonder l! you know anything about him, the man WO was Nixon's adviser from the very beginning Murray Chotiner? Oh, I suspect he is the eminence grise. Chotiner believed issues were totally unimportant; attack, attack, and accu.r" acy doesn't matter. Against Jerry Voorhis, against me, against Helen Gahagan Douglas, and then, when Nixon was vice-president, against Adlai Stevenson, the attacks on Deall Acheson you remember that phrase De° Acheson's Cowardly College of Communist Containment terrible! and the names the) called Adlai. But you know, Chotiner, he died s short time ago, he's been in and out of 01,e., White House, in and out of Nixon's career. I u love to see a real research job on him, to see what kind of man he was.

I think I read in Frank Mankiewicz's book., Chotiner already had a plan in case Edwara Kennedy ran; his opponent would rna.he speeches saying, "I do not intend to mention Chappaquiddick. Chappaquiddick will not be an issue in this campaign." And Chotiner, added, "If you keep saying that enough times ,1 think the public will get the message oho"' Chappaquiddick."

There was a pro-Nixon car-bumper sticker in the States. It read, "Nobody drowned at Watergate."

In New York last April I saw printed posters "Would you buy a used Ford from this man? To me that was a very bad thing that Nixon was allowed to choose his successor, even though Mr Ford so far seems to be Mr Nice GuY. Well, Nixon chose Spiro Agnew. And his first choice to replace Agnew Was John Connally., Oh boy! What a situation that would have been. Nixon resigning and Connally indicted!

We had coffee at this point and a friend, wh° had come in during the past half hour, said much of this is on the record?"'

Hiss said, "All of it. It's all on the record• want Larry to do as he sees fit.''

The friend said, -I'm not sure that Ale sh s._ should to England and criticise things in the I said, -You have a point. I was criticised bY Sen. Javits' wife because I wrote about Watergate from here. But this is my base. I live here. Alger is here and I'm interviewing him. But, aS far as I can tell, in all Alger has said, there's not a hint of vindictiveness:" Now I pick up the recorded interview.

and in fact I'd be very glad if you said that. `4,rrY asked how Nixon picked on me. It was a Political accident. He didn't know me, it wasn't Personal. And about what we were just saying .2 have no worries about it I trust Larry Lompletelv and also, you can't talk to a talisCand tell him how to do something. It's Indecent!

rilawn_anks very much for that. There's one thing I “Ler about; with so many facts about w".ai,ergate known well before the '72 election, all3ton McGovern making speech after speech ut it, why do you think that both press and Pnhublic with a few obvious exceptions were -willing even to consider it as a major issue?

I can , t01,4 only tell you what press people I knew see-1 me at the time. Watergate, the break-in, such a clumsy venture that they COOuldn't believe it was for real. They were very tr11l-10i afraid that the Democrats had staged it ,,u8get false sympathy. One reporter said to me, seeu,,ggilig? Larry O'Brien? He didn't have any ,.... pe Whatever that man knows, he tells." as °Pie just weren't aware of the really sinister A-Pects of it. Of course we now know why they 'aid it, It wasn't just to get ordinary Democratic Src ,ts, it was that they believed that when nen worked for Howard Hughes, he had Dlerial about Hughes's cash gift to Bebe

zo. This they were afraid of.

I had , red oiso heard they were trying to find out if iCermedy would run or not.

That's Possible. I hacin t heard that. q-hey did&.slitirle Kennedy might run, so they started as e Were running.

Who_ h_t has been the total effect of all this on you it had any effect on your psyche oh what an awful word to use!

'You mean do I have a sick psyche? Obviously even" isn t good enough for anybody. I'm not gab, a„._oxious to see any Watergate people go to of what good's it going to do them? The idea ip',rehabilitation for those people — is absolute donn,sense. I don't feel demeaned in any way — I If t feel vindictive — I'v,e had a very good life. hadn't happened; maybe I wouldn't have ma°„", Isobel [Isobel Robinson, his fiancée]. .we she wouldn't have known me. It's like " and Selina. I'm sure you feel the same way. l'°14 h ow„ ,_ave no feelings about wanting to get your Cie on anybody? No. ,Maybe it's easier in my case because 10Usly Chambers, as you can tell from his ca,?4, is not as sound as one might think. How th: You be vindictive about a man who's not all far're? And Nixon Nixon's hurt the country

nlore than he's hurt me.

Nix es °Pi seems obsessed with the Hiss case, /1-015eninnY when he talks about his past. Look the w often he advises people, "Go back and read chapter in Six Crises." Surely he's not -Pinning his book?

Nowt.,

"ere I would like to be quoted, despite the

cautions of our friend here. I went down last May to my old university, Johns Hopkins, to give a lecture. Garry Wills, who is a professor there, told me that in the Nixon tape transcripts he'd referred to me seven times in the first one hundred and fifty pages and Wills asked, the way you just did, 'Why do you think Nixon has this virtual obsessio4 about you?"And I said, I've been asked this"before, I had no answer before, but now, coming back to Hopkins, I thought I had a little glimmer. Nixon considered the Hiss case his finest hour. When old grads go back to a reunion they're in search of their lost youth. And at the time Nixon was attacking me the country was so confused by the Cold War and the anti-Communist mythology that he was able to get away with murder. Therefore, when I come back here, I know what older people feel when they come back to the scenes, the haunts, of their youth, With Nixon, he was obsessed to regain the power he once had, the adulation, the glory. The fact that he'd done it at my expense, didn't affect him since

he's not capable of that kind of feeling. This is just off the cuff — I've no idea whether it's valid. There are more subtle arguments 'for why he acts the way he does.

You think that this is the one thing he can hold over you?

No, no — I mean 7 that's the one time he had widespread popularity, because the Americans were confused. And as you said, he used this to vault to a high position. He would like to be back to that moment in his youth when he felt all-powerful, all-popular, Whatever he did, people accepted, whatever he said, however, wild, however false. This is how it seems to me. He would like to be a young man again. Remember, at the time of my case he was very young — about thirty-five.

We broke off at that point. We'd been talking from 10.30 am to 1.45 pm, though Mr Hiss had said he had to be away by 1 pm.