6 JUNE 1840, Page 2

Debates a0 113roteebinas ht iparliament.


In the House of Lords, on Monday, Lord HoLnAtin presented a peti- tion from "solicitors practising in the town of Nottingham," praying their Lordships to pass the bill for adding to the judicial strength of the Court of Chancery. Lord Chancellor COrTENHAM moved the House to go into Committee on the bill.

Lord BROUGHAM said, that further deliberation on the subject had only tended to confirm an opinion he had more than once expressed, that there existed no necessity for increasing the judicial strength of the Court of Chancery. He went into a number of curious calculations, to show the increase in the amount of business in the Chancery Courts since the time of Lord Hardwick°, and then as a set-off, stated the in- creased strength of the Court by additions to the number of Judges and the increased activity and efficiency of the Judges. From these calcu- lations and comparisons, he arrived at the conclusion that the strength —.4..tbe Court had been augmented in a greater ratio than the business. We IPA showed that at different periods there had been no arrears of . tesessvoree contended, that by extra exertion the Judges now might .:atemq , arrears. Under these circumstances, he could not concur : • .26 titt *Afton to appoint two new Vice-Chancellors certainly, and should very reluctantly assent to the appointment of one. With regard to that part of the measure which would make the Master of the Rolls presiding Judge in the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, he had his apprehensions lest it might cause the Rolls Court to be shut up altogether—. He held in his hand an account of' the number of causes set down to be tried in the Rolls Court in each year since 1833. In 1833, there were 652 ; in 1834, 462 ; in 1835, 519 ; in 1836, 465 ; in 1837, 370; in 1838, 2.i9 ; in 18n, 202; So that within the last six or seven years the number of cases set down for hearing in the Rolls Court had diminished, from between 500 and GOO, to se more than 202. Under such circumstances, if that court should all of a Sad- den be shut up for 50 or GO days in the course of the year, which would neces- sarily} be the case if its Judge were obliged to preside in the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, no one, he thought, could doubt that an extinguisher would be put upon it, and that instead of having 200 causes to bear, it would be reduced to two or three, or perhaps even to none at all. The Judge of a court in which the business was so rapidly diminishing, instead of being with- drawn to other duties, ought to work double tides in order to retain such an amount of business as should prove the usefulness of his own court and lessen the labour of others. 'When he said that the business of the Rolls Court had of late years diminished, let it not be supposed that lie intended for one moment to infer that the ewe of that diminution was in any the slightest degree to be attributed to his noble and learned friend (Lord Langdale.) Those who knew *Westminster Ball, or at least the Equity side of it, knew that there was at different times a sort of fashion which gave the preference to one court above all others. This had almost always been the ease, and had given a preponderance of business to one particular court, although the best and ablest Judges had at the same time presides! in the others.i He should go into Committee with a view of restricting the supply of additional force in the Equity Courts to their real exigencies.

The Loan C II A NCELLOR said, it was the concurrent opinion of the Bar, the Solicitors, and the Judges in the Equity Courts, that additional strength was needed to get through the business in a satisfactory manner—

These were the persons, and the only persons, who, being conversant with

the present state of the business of the courts, could state the difficulties which arose from the aceinnulation of arrears. The evil once shown to exist, it was the duty of the Legislature to provide a remedy. Take the book of causes— take the first thirty or forty causes which were waiting for hearing before the 'Vice-Chancellor, and it would be found that every one of them had been wait- ing three years, and that probably tInve more years would elapse before they could be Mae determined. "Who would say that this did not call for a re- medy ? It bail not been stated or suggusted by anybody that this arrear had arisen from any want of energy on the part of the Judges. In point of fact, oo men could exert themselves more strenuously than the Equity Judges had done to procure for the suitors in those courts a speedier distribution of justice. If they tailed in their endeavours, it was because there was no power in the courts to hear and decide all the cases that came before them, in a reasonable t It was necessary to bear in mind not only the business actually done, but the business requiring to be done, and which would certainly come into the courts for adjudication if proper facilities were afforded— The disposition to resort to these tribunals, when the danger of long delay was removed, was strongly manifested immediately after the establishment of the Vice-Chancellor's Court. The average of eases set down for hearing in the Court of Chancery, fin' three years prior to the establishment of the Nice Chancellor's Court, was 540; in the three years afterwards it was 714. When a prospect of speedier justice was afforded, men, instead of abandoning their rights, came freely into court to have them adjudicated. The increase in the number of bills filed, was even more striking than that of the number of causes set down for hearing. In the three years prior to the establishment of the Vice-Chancellor's Court, the number of bills tiled was 5S0; in the three years afterwards it was 2,236. In seeking to increase the strength of' the Equity Courts, therefore, time object was not merely to get rid of a heavy armor of bu- siness, but also to make a suitable provision to secure a speedy administration of justice to the additional number of suitors who would come into court.

Lord Cottenham continued to speak for sonic time in defence of the bill, but was "quite inaudible."

Lord LvsnueasT was satisfied that a question involving so many de- tails could only be decided satisfactorily in a Committee up stairs; and he moved an amendment that the bill be referred to a Select Committee.

The Loan CHANCELLOR had hoped that this course would not have been considered necessary ; but if it were the wish of the House gene- rally, he could only assent to it. Certainly, if the suggestion were made with a bond fide intention of investigating the subject fairly and fully, there could be no objection to it.

Lord Bnoucamii repeated that one additional Judge would be ample. Lord ELLENDOROUGH said, that even if the slightest case were made out for the appointment of a second Vice-Chancellor, he should vote for the proposition ; for it was the duty of Parliament to provide for the administration of justice, and it could not be said that the subject had justice under the present system. Lord LvNimunsr would support the proposition for a second Vice- Chaneeltor, unless it were proved to demonstration that he was not wanted. Lord Baoncantm saw no occasion for a Select Committee, if noble Lords opposite had made up their minds. The Duke of WELLINGTON—" If you determine on a Select Commit- tee, tee, you ought to carry on time discussion there, and not in this House: Lord DENMAN agreed with the Duke of Wellington—

Ile was disposed to think, however, that after the numerous inquiries which

had been carried on for twenty years with regard to the Court of Chancery, their Lordships were as competent to form a decision as any Committee up- stairs. Ile bad only to express a hope (which he did without presumption) that these inquiries would be conducted in such a manner that the report would be made as speedily as possible. Ile had come with reluctance to the

conclusion, that some inquiry was necessary ; but he was quite sure the sooner sortie remedy was applied the better. The state of transition in courts of jus- tice was the worst that could possibly exist.

Bill referred to a Select Committee.


The Marquis of BREADALDANE, on presenting a petition against Lord Aberdeen's Bill, observed that the General Assembly had condemned the measure by a large majority ; and he believed that the people of Scotland agreed with the Assembly. The Earl of HADDINGTON said, that opinion by no means tallied with information received by himself and others from Scotland. Lord BREADALBANE could only refer to the numerous petitions on

the subject.

Lord BROUGHAM would abstain from discussing the main question, till Lord Aberdeen's Bill was brought under the consideration of the

House— But this he could confidently aver, as he had asserted to their Lordships when helast addressed them on this subject, that the opinion of the people of Scotland did not go along with those who had placed themselves in resistanre to the law of the land. The law had been declared by the highest judicial authority in the land—by their Lordships themselves; and if any persisted in offering, resistance to it, lie felt quite sure that the people of Scotland would not join those misguided individuals or bodies.

Before any new laws were made, he wished to see the existing laws enforced.

On Tuesday-, the Marquis of BREADALBANE presented more petitions in favour of " Non-Intrusion." In his own opinion, the Marquis said, the pastors of the Church of Scotland would desert their duty unless they endeavoured to maintain the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of their Church, When they thought it assailed ; and the people, attached as they were to Presbyterianism were justified in seeking an alteration of the law when they considered that their rights had been violated by the decision of the civil judicature.

The Earl of ABERDEEN was really at a loss to comprehend the mean-

ing of Lord Breadalbane's observations— The noble Marquis had said that the people of Scotland had a right to call for an alteration of the law which they complained of Undoubtedly they L t 1. But when the noble eiarquis said that they were justified in complaining of a violation of their rights, Lord Aberdeen should say that no such violation had taken place. The law of the laud had been justly and equitably pronounced, and the people of Scotland could not lawfully resist it. The hundreds of peti- tions which had been presented against Non-Intrusion, left it to the wisdom of Parliament to devise the means of effecting that object. He professed himself as favourable to Non-Intrusion as any of those petitioners ; but then, it was the Non-Intrusion sanctioned by the law and supported by the constitution of the Church : end he must say, that while the Church of Scotland was receiving the support of the State, she must obey the law—as a Church of Christ she might exist without the law, but as a national Church, and maintained by the law, she nuelt obey the law. lie should defer stating the course he intended to pursue until the sittings of the General Assembly should lie finished.

The Earl of CAMPERDOWN said, that the Church of Scotland was at present in direct opposition to the decree of the Courts of Law, to which she had herself appealed; and no body of men in the empire ought to be allowed to hid defiance to the judicial authorities. In his opinion, the course which the Church of Scotland was now pursuing was calcu- lated more than any thing else to advance the views of those who advo- cated a separation of Church and State—a consummation which he most earnestly deprecated. Lord Aberdeen's Bill was only a confirmation of the old law.

Lord Ilnot:oneet said, it was not a majority of the Church, but only a majority of the Assembly, which was opposed to the law.


Lord Lysol's-toile on Wednesday, called attention to the rather re- markable fact, that no copy of the treaty concluded by Mr. Macgregor with the Neapolitan Government appeared among the papers relative to the dispute with Naples, which Ministers had laid upon the table. As no reason had been assigned for Withholding, this paper, he intended to give the House an opportunity of hearing. from Lord Melbourne why this important document had been Ivithheld, together with the cor- respondence connected with it. He hoped to hear from Lord Mel- bourne some good reason why Mr. Macgregor's treaty had not been ratified. Its ratification, as he was informed, had been desired by the English merchants, the Neapolitan merchants, and the Government of • Naples. It was a strong argument in favour of its ratification that another treaty had been violated by the granting of the sulphur mono- poly to the French. That most injurious monopoly would have been put an end to by the treaty which Mr. Macgregor had negotiated. He wished for explanation on these points, and would move that a copy of the treaty, and of Mr. Macgregor's correspondence with Lord Palmer- ston relating to it, be laid upon the table.

Lord MELBOURNE said, that the fallacy of Lord Lyndbnrst's argument lay in his misdescription of Mr. Macgregor's treaty. Mr. Macgregor was sent to Naples to assist in preparing and revising a tariff; and he exceeded his powers when he negotiated a treaty. Moreover, on ex- amination it appeared that the notes of his treaty—for really there were nothing immure than notes for, or the basis of a treaty—contained fundamentaCerrors, which must for ever prevent their ratification. By altering what is vicious, adding what is wanted, retrenching what is superfluous, possibly a treaty might be framed on the basis of Mr. Mac- gregor's notes. He was convinced that the production of the documents moved for would embarrass the negotiations carried ou under the me- diation of France, and would therefore be injurious to the public ser- vice. On these "short grounds" he should oppose the motion.

Lord LYNDHURST did not consider himself in a position to press his motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE CORN•laws.

The Duke of RICHMOND on Thursday, asked Lord Fitzwilliam to state the terms of the motion lie intended to submit to the House on the subject of the Corn-laws. It would be convenient to put their Lordships in possession of the proposition they would be called upon to negative.

Earl FITZWILLIAM said, that really the Duke of Richmond presumed a little too munch upon his knowledge of what their Lordships' inten- tions might be, in asking what the proposition was they were about to

negative. He was not aware that he was about to propose any resolu- tion which would so far disturb their Lordships' gravity as to induce them immediately to negative it. He trusted, on the contrary, that it would be considered with the gravity its importance demanded. He

had no objection to state the form of his motion ; which would be a re- solution " That it is expedient to reconsider time laws which regulate the importation of foreign corn."

The Duke of RICIDIOND, the Earl of Faamounr, and the Earl of WARWICK, were anxious for discussion ' • but complained of the attempts Made by itinerant lecturers to spread false notions on the subject, and

of the language applied in the Anti-Corn-law Circular to the landlords, who were called blood-suckers, robbers of the poor, and enemies of the poor. Earl Ferzwthraam agreed that it was a very indecent mode of describing a class as respectable as fundownersonill-owners, or any other owners.

PnISON The Mar juis of NORMANBY informed the Lords, on Tuesday, that

the Prisons I )isei el ine Amendment Bill had come up from the Commons in a shape to which he could not assent. lie intended to propose an amendment to enable the Secretary of State, Visiters, and Visiting Ma- gistrates, to issue orders for the relaxation of prison-diseipline in parti- cular 'eases. Ile would substitute this general amendment for clauses which had refer ewe to the treatment of political offenders in prison, and were intended to apply to certain individuals.

The Marquis of SALISBURY observed, (lust Lord Normanby's clause was to the same effect is those he wished to expunge. It was manifestly intended to favour certain persons now undergoing punishment for poll- deal offences.

Lord Notemaxey only wished to vest the discretion in seine person Or persons.

The hart of We ewe.): said, that the individuals in question had been treated in the same way as others had always been. The fact was, the case lied been got up elsewhere, awl the Lords NV:re called upon to le- gislate on certain representations from that qoarter.

Lord E1.1.ENE.0101'GH wished for more time befor,! leg's:A:Ling on the question.

The Marquis of Semseunv thought Lord Normanby's classic would give the Home Secretary a most objectionable power of altering the sentences of the Judges.

It was agreed that the amendments should be printed, and considered on a future day.


In the House of Commons. on Tuesday, Mr. Serge mt TALegUaO

called attention to the case of Henry Vincent ; and took the opportunity of presenting a petition, signed by fourteen thousand persons, on behalf of Mr. Feargus O'Connor. lie said lie was well acquainted with Vin- cent's case, as it had been his duty to conduct two prosecutions against him. Vincent was convicted at Monmouth of using seditious language and attending seditious meetines, and sentenced to imprisonment in Monmouth Gaol. His character having been previously unspotted, an in- tercet was excited in his favour, and lie was exempted from many of the pri s on -reg ul at io s. Ile did nut wear the prison-dress, and his hair was not cut off. Ile was allowed the use of books nut " improper." At the last Mcnrinuith Assizes, lie was again trial ou a charge growing out of the same cireionshinces as the previims oar —it was part and parcel of the seine transaction. Vincent on that occasion defended himself with a degree of talent, and he would add of grace, which con- firmed the favourable opinion of him ; and the Jury recommended hint to mercy. Ire was sentenced to a further term of imprisonment; and remained in lIonmouth Gaol until it was deemed prudent, on ac- count of the excited state of that part of the country, io remove hits; and Sergeant Talfourd had heard with considerable surprise that he had been sent to Milbank Penitentiary, a place of correctional disci- pline, and not fit for a political offender— It appeared, that when sent to this prison he was attired in the prison-dress, confined to the prison-diet, and restricted in the use of books. One of the rules of this prison was, that a prisener was permit aid to communicate with his friends once in four months by lettcr; and the object of this regulation was stated to be that a prisoner should be enabled to ke,p up it eonnexion with the most respectable portion of his friends, by which means be might ulti- mately retrieve himself. lie was not to b.! allowed to hear any thing of the news of the day, with which, it was said, tie .t lie could have no concern. Now he thought the restrictions and rules of this prison were unsuited to offences of the class of which this individual was convicted. In former instances of per- sons convicted of peetical offences, when there were not invitations held out to free discussion, and Idiot licence was not held out to discussion, no such in- stances of punishments of this description occurred.

A silent change, it appeared, had been effected, and he thought un- warrantably, without the sanction of Parliament, in the punishment of persons convicted of political offences. Any person convicted of a political libel was liable to be treated as a felon— Let them take the instance of Mr. Lawson, the respectable publisher of the Times newspaper, who might he soi6ceted to punishment of this kind for having published a libel of which he led no more knowledge than any Member of that Muse. lie would say th It 5neh snits of thine could not last. The punishment of the pillory ceased to exi-t when an officer, who had fought the hattles of a nation was !heed in the pillory : public indignation was excited, and the punishment of the pillory ceased to exist.

But it was said nobody was responsible for this increased severity of punish ment- If they went to the Covernment, they were told, Go ask the Judges; who, in their turn, said the matter did not rest with them. If they went to the Visiting Magistrate, they said that when they formed the regulations they did not anticipate the orcurrence of such cases. ale should say, that one month of such imprisonment as that suffered by Mr. Feargus O'Connor won't!. be more painful to a man with the feelings and spirit and manners of a gentleman, than years of imprisonment on the old system.

He moved an address to the Queen, praying her Majesty " to order Henry Vincent to be removed to some other prison, where he would not be subjected to the saute privations and sufferings ; and that her Majesty might be graciously pleased to diminish the period of his im- prisonment, in consideration of such sufferings and privations."

Mr. THOMA.S DUNCOMIIE SITOIlded the motion.

Mr. Wtaatam Annams WILLIAMS reminded the House, that Vincent, by his talent in conducting a newspaper and in ad,lreing large assem- blages of the people, had prepared the labouring population to follow John Frost.

Mr. Fox MAULE felt bound to oppose the motion. lie admitted that

there was nowhere any right to make Vincent's sentence more severe, but he thought there was some risk in exciting popular sympathy in be- half of a person who had abused the lenity shown him as Henry Vin- cent had done. It was admitted that when first lie was sent to Mon- mouth Gaol he had been treated with lenity. Writing-materials were furnished him, but what use did he make of them ? lie used them to write inflammatory paragraphs in the Western Vindicator. The County Magistrates wished him to be removed; and he was taken to Milbank Penitentiary, the only prison supported by the funds of the State—

He admitted that that prison was intended as a place of reformation for felons. and not for the confinement of political offenders. But Vincent did not appear to suffer so much as was represented; for in a letter to his mother • Cmehe said he was fond of solitude, and signed himself her happy son. No doubt he had been subjected to the strict regulations of the prison. But there was only a choice of evils. They must either send Vincent back to Monmouth Gaol, where there might be facility of relaxing the prison-rules, or relaxing the rules of the Penitentiary, which could not be (lonewithout violating an act of Parliament. Ile must object to any address to her Majesty to remove Vincent to any other gaol. lie hoped, however, that he should be able to place him on a footing with respect to the prisou-regulations to which there would be no cans to object. To the litter part of his honourable friend's motion he must also 'eject, namely, the illiriesensut of the term of Mr. Vincent's imprison- ment. He did not think the time had arrived when any such advice could be tendered by any responsible adviser of her Majesty. When they remembered the storm from which the country bad only just escaped, he did not think they wouid be justified in showing a disposition to remit the punishment of those who had been mig ed. in raising that storm. He must on those grounds object to the motion.

Mr. Hume held a petition from Mr. Hill, editor of the Western Vin- dicator; who stated that fbr several months during Vincent's imprison- ment no articles for the impel. had been received from Vincent.

Mr. Meree—" Because the -Megistrates intercepted them."

Mr. Hen Then no harm could come of his writing." The punishment was excessive, and created sympathy for the prisoner, not rest ect for the law.

Mr. HAWES, Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE, Mr. Wegeev, Mr. JO1IN JERVIS, and Mr. Acucenv, supported the motion. Lord GRANVILLE SW: ERSEI: and Lord Jolts Iueseee spoke against it ; but Lord Jolts said-

" It certainly may he a question whether, towards the termination of Mr. Vincent's imprisonment, comidering that the severity of his punishment hail been greater than was contromplIfed, the Law Officers of the Crown will not advise a remission of the remainder of his sentence."

Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD in that case would not press his motion. Sir ROBERT PEEL said- " I can only express may regret that the noble Lord should have made any thing like a condition. For my part, I shall always resist any thing like an attempt to interfere with the prerogative of the Crown on the part of the House of 'Commons ; for if this once be drawn into a precedent, time odium of all punithments will be thrown upon the Executive, and the grace of all remis- sion he sought after by the House."

Lord Jonx Rrssxl.l. had made no concession—he merely intimated the course he intended to pursue. Motion withdrawn. • Mr. TALFOURD then moved that Mr. Feargns O'Connor be removed from York Castle to some other prison.

Mr. Fox Meuse admitted that the treatment Mr. O'Connor had been

subjected to had never been contemplated by the Judges or the Secre- tary of State ; and he read a correspondence between Lord Normanby and the -Visiting justices relative to Mr. O'Connor's treateient. The Justices assured Lord Norm:lithe. that Mr. O'Connor hail been placed in the Mons' cell by his own request ; and had never performed any menial office but once, when he refused to allow another person to make his bed. Lord Normanby wished the sentence against Mr. O'Connor to be executed in a way befittieg his former habits of life and his state of health.

Mr. WAKLEV suggested an adjournment of the debate for further in- formation.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS objected to take Mr. O'CO11110T'S previous rank of life into consideration.

Sir ROBERT Peet, thought an error had been committed in sending Vincent to the Penitentiary ; and objected to the removal of prisoners from one gaol to another.

Mr. TALFOURD withdrew this motion also.

Lord Blioncniess on Thursday, presented n petition to the Lords from Bradford, complaining of the treatment of Mr. Feargns O'Connor in prison, praying for inquiry into his case, and fur his removal to the debtors' side of the gaol--

As for as respected the ingeiry, it was within their Lordships power ; lint as to the other part of the preyer, he doubted much if they would intethre. This, however, he must say, that it there were any truth whatever in these state- ments, and others of the same kind which hail lately come before the public, there was cause for the deepest regret, and great danger of exciting that feeling so fatal to the design of all pmushments—of indignation at the treatment of the offender instead at his offence. The case excited in his mind many re- flections, with which he would not now trouble their Lordships.

Lord IN■01131ANIIV read his correspondence with the Magistrates, and stated that some relaxation had been made in O'Connor's favour. Ire had sent Mr. Crawford to York to inquire and report upon the whole ease.

Lord BROUGHAM considered the reply satisfactory; as there was much discrepancy in the statements, and aim inquiry ought to be made.


The subject of emigration to the Colonies was brought before the House of Commons on Tuesday, by Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN; who moved the following resolutions-

,. That it is the opinion of this House, that in Great Britain and Ireland time wori.ing classes arc frequently exposed to extreme privation, from inability to procure employmomt : That III several of the British Colonies the demand for labour is urgent, continuous, and inerrving, and its remuneration is compara- tively ample ; whilst the prosperity of thc:e Colonies is much retarded by its inadequate supply : That, muter timee circumstances, it is expedient that mi free passage to those Colonies which off,..r I he greatest rewards to industry should be provided by the State for such of the labouring classes as are disposed to .migrate thither."

Mr. O'Brien went largely into details to convince the House that the demand for etnierant labour le the Colonies was urgent and extensive, whilst the greatest s'.istrieis prevailed in Great Britain and Ireland from

weat of rem anturati'vc employment. There was a strong and grow- ing disposition amones the lel:miring classes in this country to emigrate to the Colonies; and he considered it sound policy in the State to en-

courage that disposition. The South Australian principle of colonizing was the only sound one ; but Lord John Russell, though he recognized-, refused to act upon it.

Mr. Hterr seconded the tuoti in. He believed that the resolutions might might be acted on by Government with the greatest advantage both to this country and the Colonies. He regretted that the waste hands of Canada were to be given up to the Legislature, instead of being reserved by the Crown as a fund for defraying the cost of emigration. A

Cape of Good Hope, a colony absolutely perishing for want of labour, there was a fund of 311,0001. a year derived from quit-rents, which ought to be applied to the same purpose.

Mr. LUCAS supported the resolutions, and expressed his regret that so few Members were present at the discussion. lithe question were whether a Member should be added to the Whig or Tory side of the House, the benches would be filled to repletion. He would not go into details, for the House was not disposed to listen to them; but lie would suggest that security might be taken for the payment of the expenses of con- vcying emigrants to Australia.

Captain Doane:Ho approved of the resolutions. lIe considered that the Government had acted with very great injustice towards the per- sons who had been induced to emigrate to New South Wales by the as- surance that the proceeds of the land-sales in that colony would be de- voted to procuring a supply of labour. He was in favour of encourag- ing military emigration. Some of the most successful colonies in an- cient times had been founded by military emigrants. The army must soon be withdrawn from Canada; and now was the time when soldiers might be induced to settle in Canada, instead of deserting, as they did at present, by dozens and scores, to the United States, where the wages of labour were high. Ile hoped a Committee would be appointed to con- sider this subject, and the state of the Colonies generally.

Mr. VILLIERS said that the real cause of distress was the Corn-laws; and he would not vote to relieve the landowners by granting a single six- pence for emigration, until he was convinced that the remedy was not in their own hands by repealing the Corn-laws.

srr ROBERT INULIS exclaimed "Erec iternin Crispinus !" Mr. -Villiers's perseverance was admirable—from whatever point they set out, he always returned to his favourite theme of the Corn-laws: he re- minded one of the patent bone-digester, which turned every thing into food. With regard to the resolutions, be must say that he was averse to loading the journals with a set of truisms. If a principle were adopted, it ought to be acted upon ; and, as the Duke of Wellington said England could not have a little war, so lie thought that emigration, if carried on by the State at all, should be on a very large scale, and not limited to the working population or any class or subdivision of the community. He would also remark, that the Government would not be justified in sending out emigrants unprovided with religious instruction.

Mr. WARD had observed that if Mr. Villiers introduced the subject of the Corn-laws into every discussion, so Sir Robert Inglis never failed to bring the subject of religion into all his speeches. Mr. Ward hoped that no attempt would he made to fix the curse of an exclusive system of religion on any colony, but that what was done fin• one denominati•ei would be done for all. Ile concurred generally in Lord John Russell's instructions to the Commissioners for the sale of Waste Lands ; hut little benefit would be derived from them unless they re- ceived Parliamentary sanction. lie would never trust a Colonial Minister again, unless he were clothed by act of Parliament with power to carry out his intentions. lie advised Lord John Russell to prepare a bill on the subject in the ensuing autumn.

Mr. Venxoe SMITH said, that any reference of this subject to a Com- mittee would tend to embarrass the Colonial Office. Neither was the Government prepared to adopt the resolutions, which must excite falla- cious hopes. lie knew not where the money was to come from which was to defray the expense of emigration on the scale contemplated. Ile should be reminded of the Land-fund: but what if the Land-fund had been diverted to other purposes—such as the support of a police for the protection of settlers—because the Local Legislature refused to lay a tax for that purpose? Mr. Ward blamed Ministers for not put- ting their instructions into aim net of Parliament ; but if once tied up by an act of Parliament, how were they to adopt a different course, which experience might dictate ? A great deal of emigration was going on at present. In 'Seta 62,270 persons had emigrated ; and et 10/. a head the cost would be nearly 700,00u/. This showed the very large expenditure to which the resolutions might pledge the Government; and aeain he would ask where was the motley to come from? Bow should he apportion a tax to raise the means?

Mr. SLANEY agreed to the first resolutions, but not to the last. 1Ie. thought that much might be done to alleviate the physical condition of the people, without sending them abroad.

Mr. PRI:3111 said, a great evil of emigration bad been lost sight of— that the persons who left the country were the strong and adult part of the population. To bring up n labourer and then send Min out of the country, was like exporting a ready-made machine.

Lord Jolts lt ussemr. had no objection to affirm the first and second re- resolutions, which comm I:lined propositions of the most general nature ; but he could not affirm the third, for it was wide, vague, and devoid of all statements as to the extent the Government should go in providing free passages for emigrants. Ile was not prepared to affirm the expediency of laying additional burdens on the people of this country far that par- pose, at a time when taxation was necessarily increased on other ac- counts. Then, difficulties arose as to the description of perms to be selected, and time place to which they ought to be sent. The immigra- tion which the Colonies desired was that of able-bodied labourers. lime persons most disposed to emigrate were generally well advanced in life, with large families of young children: their arrival in the Colonies was viewed with alarm, and was a source of embarrassment to the Co- lonial Governments, who always desired to have notice of the expected emigration. Ile did not think Government could flirty be reproached with misappropriation of the few South 'Wales Land-thud. lie refused to lay it down as an absolute and invariable principle that the proceeds of land-sales should be devoted to emigrating alone.

cerns of all government—judieinl and police establill'ililieeXtrsi-311.3nriYusetTe. provided for by the land-fund, if local taxation was refused. No muss ik appropriation had been proved in New South Wales. The money taken bad all been applied to the support of the colony and its establishments, Sir RonEnT PEEL refused to bind up the discretion of the Executive. and was averse to the interference of the State with emigration, except so far as to remove obstacles to emigration. It would no doubt be advantageous sometimes to remove labour ; so also it might be advanta- geous sometimes to remove machinery standing idle ; but could the State be called upon to remove machinery ? If persons were left to decide for themselves as to the time, mode, and place to be selected for emigration, they would probably act with more acuteness than the Government.

Mr. O'BRIEN allowed the "previous question" to be carried as an amendment to his motion.


Lord Joust Russamt„ on Thursday moved, the Mogen to go into Committee on the Colonial Passengers Bill.

Sir EARDLEY WILMOT asked whether this bill would take off the restriction on the importation of Hill Coolies into the Mauritius?

Lord JOHN Russsa.r. said, the clauses lie intended to propose in Com- mittee would raise the general question whether the restriction might be removed. He hoped to be able to frame regulations to prevent the repetition of the horrors and miseries which had occurred, but which he believed had been distorted and misrepresented. He proposed to authorize the importation of such Hill Coolies as were disposed to go from India to the Mauritius— For this purpose, he thought that agents should be appointed by the Gover- nor-General or other superior authorities in India, to superintend their immi- gration. These clauses also would provide, that such Bill Coolies as should arrive in the Mauritius should In free to make such contracts for service iis they thought tit. and for one year and no longer. lie thought also that some precaution should he taken for the importation of a litir proportion of females, in order that that frightful disproportion which had been said to exist in that colony might not continue. He thought that under restrictions of this; kind immigration might take place into the Mauritius, without those frightnal evils of which complaint had been made, with considerable advanioge to those natives of India who were compelled to seek labour and wages in a foreign country. He thought that this would he it) accordance with the priociple of freedom in labour, for he thought it very hard to say that a titan Mc, was starving in his own country should not lie allowed to go elsewhere to obtain employment and food. But the introduction of a new race, molt as the Coolies, into the West Indies, and the extreme ignorance which prevailed io India as to those colonies, justified the proldluition of emigration to that quarter. He should told, that the papers last presented were sent home by the Governor, who expressed his strong recommendation of the proposed regula- tions, and that the committee in the Mauritius could give no stronger proof of their desire to see all justice dune to the Hill Coolies, than their selection of Mr. Anderson as their agent.

Sir EA Rni.Ev WILmor had understood Lord John Russell to promise some protection of the Hill Coolies.

Lord JOHN Itussm.r.—" Yes, but not by bill."

Mr. BERN AL thought it hard to prevent the Coolies from going to the West Indies, where there was a great dearth of labour, and where they would be sure of good treatment— Labour was so scarce in Jamaica that the cultivation of the soil was carried ou at a loss. Ile could say himself, that the burden of every letter which he received from those islands was the want of labourers.

LOIC1 JOHN Russlint, said, some West India proprietors had stated to him objections to the importation of hill Coolies in stronger language than he had used.

Mr. Hontroust; said, England ought to give up the West Tirlia Co- lonies unless site could promote immigration into them. lie thought the introduction of a new race would be benelicial. Euglishineu were descended from Saxons, Normans, Celts, and Fleming a, and the result was advantageous.

Mr. EIVART remarked, that the question was, whether Government could not protect the Coolies in the Mauritius more efficiently. than in the West Indies, Mr. WA not:1111os thonght this emigration would be mitigated slavery; and that it was better to send the Coolies to the \Vest Indies than to the Mauritius, where every regulation was broken, and the Governor winked at the infraction, while the Government at house winked at him.

Mr. Cutto Bur.t.ritt said, the climate of the Mauritius was the most healthy in the British dominions. Ile did not think. it fair in :%ic. Warburton to refer to the past misdeeds or this Governmeat there. It Might suit the excited feelings of a party to raise an outcry on the sub- ject, but; they ought not to substitute revenge for justice. To Mauri- tius the Indians had always resorted, and they were becoming the ma- jority of' the lahourers. The voyage front ludic was only three weeks— to the West Indies three months ; and its the West Indies the Coolies would compete with two races. It was a spurious and lazy humanity which led men to suppose that they discharged their duty by prohibit- ing emigration altogether ; and there was no alternative between:prohi- biting and regulatina. it. Wise and considerate men w0111(1 rejoice in securing to the Indians proper wages and decent subsistence, and to the Mauritius that labour without which it would become a desert.

Dr. LusurserroN said, that the charge of substituting revenge for justice savoured more of rash presumption than deliberation. l to would not endure such an accusation without rep elling it ; and, notwithstand- ing Mr. Buller's warning, would take leave to refer Lord John Ituss, to past experience—to the importation of 25tvio to 30,000 slaves into the island, although the importation was felony--to the fact illat the administration of justice was poisoned front top to bottom—and to the past treatment of the hill Coolies—.

lie bad on a former occasion presented to the House a petition from those merchants who held the greatest commercial intercourse \roll that colony, in which they said they coultfllOt continue that intercourse abetter ll(1111'612 SUS eStablISIled the administration of justice, With respect to the condition of the Hill Coolies, he would refer them Ma passage in as letter which was contained

in the volume of papers on this subject that ha,' been laid betbre the 1100Ee. The writer, speaking of those who bad been imported into the Illauritins, said, he

considered that they were treated with great and unjust severity by overwork and by personal chastisement. Their bidgiogs and secommodation were either too confined and disgusting, or none whatever was provided for them : and in cases of sickness, the IllOst wilful neglect was evinced in withholding that accommodation, advice, and attendance, which the utter helplessness of the

Mr. MACAULAY was of opinion, that to prevent emigration from coun- tries where the demand for labour was small to those where it wits great, was in the highest degree pernicious.

If there were any part of our empire front which it was d siralde t t encoa- rage emigration, that part was India ; and if Oleic any part to whieh emi-

gration should be promoted, it was the In the .Mooritias the ,sages 111(1 ell/igrall1 SVOtIld receive were six thous as great as those paid to the untie,: peasantry of India in their own country ; and if we were induced ly feelings of humanity to prevent emigration front taking place, sue should take care that we were not hi t rayed l.v those sentiments into the commis- sion of an act of great cruelty. \:),eil la rams in this conetry spoke with horror and detestation of what they ternie1 the new dove-tea be, they ought to lie told of the misery :mud destit

...tit.on which the emigrants were expiew.I their own country, where the Governor-General :aqui1:y obliged to imin out of his road to avoid seehig the wr,telued pea-.au;:i;.• perishing floa) want and dying in the ditches by the woydile 1..0;11 hunger, when by einigni- tium they might have lawn saved from such :t fate.

The measure before the house was framed with a view to protect tio.1 Hill Coolies, and to prevent the re,,errctiee or the evil:: to which Dr.

Litshington referred. I-Fe considt,:ssi it of' ;: re,,t haportance to inaintai.n the prosperity of those colonies •-biv y 1,:. I been abolished- 11. 01.11' COlollit•6 suit hot

L•li :mil ogriettltur.,

to (annuities where slavery emiiime. 1—it it w •.,i i!a1,• as of the countries in tvi:irn slavery existed to " oat c.; it wan; iiholislied countries %clime agriculture ,...s, I v. ro 11:e 111111•1111011 was at all end. not those engaged in it earn r ily ■•71(,•1;111.Lir a hare sishnice—We might have to it uvell'roun Erg'au.l 11, p st hut it won] be questionable whether n e had le- ,ineit iw 'item

1Ir. DINING said, that \\ tae, • i• had fallen off one-half.

whilst the expense of pi:0,111,1'1,ln .,1 the increase of price in the hour market. To is x ;toe thir.o, could not last lie did not sue why the \Vest i Colonies :'.,,opal nut be furnished with

labour from the same source as the

Mr. O'Coxxnkr, was conviaced that the object of the plantains in the Alattritins vi as gain, and that 11:,y nothing what became of their wet-it-bed hula ,bars. The ink ciiatuee for the latter was in the cha- racter of Sir Lionel Smith. ,eels 11;1,1 received 11') :01,1 he 6110111(1 MON(' ti1;i1 1110 CU,I,P.er;11100 Or the clauses be postponed to that day six mouths.

Mr. Viatx,ix SMITH Staid, that the ob;,..el of the clauses was to pre- vent the recurrence ot'thr crueltios whiell were now alleged as rea- sons for r,jeeting thew. Ile tloatglit that the experiment ought to be

tried of introducing 11111 , under nett' regulations.

.Mr, t ti filic.ing i 1. anendinent irregular. withdrew it ; arf': asked the Speaker whether Ili clauses cull be considered in C'ons- mittee 'without an instruction

Sri-IKER said, an era:: ne,,•-•eary. Lord .1011N 111:S61.1.1. 1110N-lli the 11161r:01,11.

.A11% s111/i.• rted 1:: I ; ' 111/11Sili

tigainst being supposed to u;;:ictiein ti: NvItieb Lord John Russell might adopt.

Mr. W.tio.r.v cpposc,i, moi fir Of:out:I; ( REV F.rni-pryt,,,I tae motion. On a division, the instruction was carried, by •;ti to -1-I. sufferers so urgently called for. :Now, if they found him a system to provide against those evils—if they gave him independent agents to prevent the repe- tition of them—would he be opposed to voluntary emigration to the Man; i,ius ? No ; quite the contrary. But how were the hill Coolies treated ? They were worked with police inspectors over them; they were, indeed, shaves to all intents and purposes; they could not even leave their particular plantations after their hours of labour were passed, without a ticket of leave. Could we, then, speak of them as free labourers? Let the House also look to the mortality amongst them. What Nlai Mr. Anderson's statement ? That the mortality was eight or nine per cent. per annum. Would any wish it to he greater? At present the whole system was the most brutal that Christianity had ever witnessed; nothing could tend more to de- grade human nature, or to destroy human peace and prosperity. In the first place, the Coolies had no means of communicating with the 'Magistrates, be- cause their language was for the most part unknown to them; and secondly, tiny had been told over and over again of contracts between masters and ser- vants having been violated, and yet not one single instance was that dill which the contract had been set aside or justice done. Bow many Coolies were there already in the Mauritius? The number was allowed out all sides to be not its than 2i,000, and he believed that it really was not less than 35,000. But the whole slave population was not more than tutf,Ood ; and what wolti he the eitect of introducing =u large a number of Coolies into on island containing i-uch a

population as that Would it not 1 a discouragement 1...1 persum6 to do their duty ? Was there, moreover, any neee ‘sity for preferriilg the M tu•itius to all the other Colonies? Was it Iheatuse the labour t hi re was not sitflicient? Was it because the island had null guim, ,loWII? Prech-ely the reverse. For in 1825 the produtie of the Mouritim os only ; whilst in the last year it amounted 1112,0d0/., the cultivation of sugar hoeing increased sixtbild during those fifteen years. lIe believed, indeed, that on the encouragement of emi- gration to all our Colonies, and the cultivation of sugar by free labour, mainly depended, under novidetice, the putting it stop to the abominable traffic in

human beings. There was no mon living mIto nit the general 11111161/1.: teas

more friendly than lie was to a just and prudent ClOija.tion ; but what he asked 114 was, that the whole subject should he considered together, and not to lie called on to give his consent to a system without knowing what consequences might follow.

Mr. GROTE was glad that the additional duty on Baltic timber had been given up—

He was sure if an increased duty was placed on timber from the Baltic, as was originally proposed, that such a course would not only cause a serious loss or ruin to many persons engaged in the trade, but would also have the worst effect upon the revenue.

Mr. GOULBURN warned Mr. Baring, that other exemptions would be claimed on the same plea—

For himself, if timber were exempted, he should feel considerable difficulty with respect to spirits, on which the difference of the duty was ffir greater than on timber. With respect to the differential ditties between Canada and other timber, heshould not give an opinion; but if there was any intention to de- prive Canada timber of the advantage it had enjoyed, there never was a time when it was less called for than when we were trying to adjust the differ- ences with Canada, when, whilst we persevered iu maintaining our rights, it should be our object to do every thing that would conciliate the colony.

Mr. KEIDDLF; thought the present a most inauspicious moment to deprive Canada of any advantage— With respect to the in of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a per- son largely concerned n the final:I.-trade with the Baltic, as well as Canada, Lad stated to him that the propoied alteration would iliminish instead of augment the revenue.

The conversation on this subject then dropped.

The report of the Committee was brought up on Thursday. Mr. 3[3m:some WOOD moved to omit the clause which imposed the additional duty of five per cent. on goods under contract to be delivered at a spe- cified price, but not delivered. Dr. LUSIIINGTON and Mr. BERNAL op-

posed the clause ; the A:sue:Lion of the Excite:et:ER supported it, as did also Mr. OF:DIME Pereira: and 111r. Butertieteroet ; and it was re- tained by a majority of 1 nn to 17.