IRELAND

Jack Lynch on his crisis

Ian Lyon talks to the Irish Prime Minister

Is the North dragging its feet?

'I believe that the right-wing element in the North is very much opposed to real re- form, and there would be a danger that that element would have very strong in- fluence. Therefore it is essential that the point of view of the minority must be kept in mind, and must be properly represented. For that reason, I think it is very important that the pace must be kept up, and that the reactionary right-wing influence is not effec- tive.'

Do you think that pace of reform is being kept up in the North, particularly with the recent shifts apparently to the right?

'I fear the possibility that it may not be kept up and if it is not then I think we could revert to the very sad situation that obtained almost two years ago.'

And then how would Dublin react?

'We would continue to keep up pressure with the tar Government, to ensure that these reforms are maintained.'

But I am thinking also of pressures here in Dublin—pressures on yob.

'I don't feel there is any need for pres- sures on me as far as reforms are concerned, because we are anxious to see them carried out, and we believe that they are vitaL Therefore, pressures on me from any source do not arise in this context.'

Might not there be people here in Dublin who think you should take a stronger line in some way with the tit( and with the Border?

'There is always room for differences of opinion as to emphasis, and of course there would be people here who would like me to take a stronger line. But I think I am taking the realistic line, and the one that is best conducive to an ultimate solution of our problems.'

Could you define that realistic line?

'First of all, as I have said before, there are two traditions in this country, and the two traditions must be got to live together and understand each other. We want to enq sure that in a community, the small com- munity that Ireland is, that there will be understanding and co-operation, and that there will be an end to suspicion and fear. These lead to hatred and, as we have seen, have recently led to bloodshed. It is im- portant for us to indicate to the majority in the North that their co-religionists here en- joy full and equal opportunities and facili- ties in every way. There is no discrimination whatever here against anybody because of his religion.'

The Six Counties make a great claim about their housing rates being higher, their building rate being higher than the Repub- lic's, and their social welfare benefits being better.

'The social welfare benefits are somewhat better, but we have been catching up very quickly in recent years. It must be remem- bered, of course, that the social welfare bene- fits in the Six Counties are considerably assisted by the British taxpayer. If the North of Ireland had to depend on their own tax income for social welfare benefits and other forms of subvention, they would hardly be able to support the present rates. The current housing rate in the North is, I believe some., what better than it is here, but we have been engaged in our housing drive now for some 30-odd years, indeed almost 40 years. The North has a big backlog to make up. Al- though our progress is very good, it could be better and we have been stepping up the pace in recent years, but like every other government we have to contend with the availability of capital.'

What has been happening to your ent.i gration rate?

'Oh, it's got considerably less. Our emi- gration rate, say up to about five, six years ago averaged about 40,000 a year. But in recent years we have reduced that by over two-thirds.'

You have ruled out force as a solution to the problems of partition, and you have suggested there are possibilities of a federal solution.

'I believe, as I have said on many occa- sions, that it is the job of statesmen and men of goodwill to consider the kind of relation- ships which would draw the two parts of Ire- land together by peaceful means, so as to pat an end to the fears which, I have many times mentioned, lead to hatred and to bloodshed. Whether the relationship should develop along federal lines is a secondary matter. The form may need to be developed, and I am not pushing any particular pre- scription. In referring to a federal solution, what I had in mind was to demonstrate that we are open to negotiation on the problem, and I am not pressing fixed ideas. I said, on a number of occasions, that even if interim measures could be taken that would bring the two communities together, then I would be quite prepared to discuss the implementation of these interim measures. The federal solution, I might say, was not new. It did not come from me in the first instance. It was put -forward thirty years ago and more by Mr de Valera. He was quite pre- pared then to have, a government in Belfast with autonomy over its area, a government in Dublin with autonomy over the rest of the country, but that the Belfast government would not be subject to Westminster, but subject to an overall Irish authority. I be- lieve that this could be worked out. This is possible. But, nevertheless, again I am not wedded to any particular formula. As long as we have ultimately a united Ireland, then that is what our aim is; that is what the aim of the great majority of the Irish people is.'

What kind of interim measures would you envisage?

'I would consider that—to take one ex- ample—a form of a council for all Ireland, that would not have legislative authority, but that would examine problems that would arise on both sides, problems that would yield to an overall solution. They may be economic or social problems. In that fashion - an overall council would be able to advise respective parliaments that a particular solu- tion is likely to be successful, and therefore both parliaments could act on these sugges- tions and implement them,' Matters such as electricity and tourism? 'Yes. At the moment, of course, these matters are just discussed as between Minis. ters or representatives of the two regimes,

and each is free to go about its business in its own way afterwards. There are, of course, agreements. There have been formal agree.

ments legislated for in both governments, for example in the case of railway co-operation;

and there could be many others like this that some form of council could examine closely, It is a very interim step. It would not be an

ultimate solution. It would not be regarded as an ultimate solution, but one that could lead to greater goodwill and understanding: What do you think Whitehall's reaction would be to both the interim measure and

losing ultimate responsibility for the North?

'I believe that Whitehall has no vested in. terest in the maintenance of partition, and I do not believe it would worry them very much if the two parts of Ireland could agree to work together in the form I have sugges.

ted, or ultimately could unite. The important thing is that we have a viable community in this country, and one that can work in co- operation with Britain, because we have very close economic and other links with Britain. I think a United Ireland would be more conducive to more effective co-opera- tion between Ireland and Britain.'

It would not imperil any of those real economic links with Britain?

'I do not believe it would. After all, we have a free trade area with the United Kingdom that has been in existence now for over five years, and has been working very satisfactorily. The flow of trade between both countries has increased considerably as a result, and as well as that we are at the moment both applicants for membership of the European Economic Community.'

Many people in the North are a bit scep- tical about having the Republic as a neigh- bour. They say that they would then get in the North the worse of the bargain. What steps are you taking to make sure that Ireland is a richer country?

'We've always believed that Ireland as a whole would be more viable from the eco- nomic point of view. We have always read in our history books that there was great industrial strength in the North, and great agriculural strength in the South. We have been building up our industrial strength in recent years. We have increased our national wellbeing by fifty per cent over the past ten years, and it is continuing le improve at a rate of about four per cent per annum. In other words, our standard of -living has increased fifty per cent in that period, and continues to increase at the rate of four per cent per annum. The rate la Britain, I think, is about three per cent pet annum at the present time. Therefore, Ile are improving the quality of living, im- proving the standard of living, and increas. ing our industrial potential. We ha‘e promoted the establishment of industry here and encouraged investment from foreign industrials. Of course the North of Ireland has been doing that as well.'

'Like Britain, we are a very old country. We cherish the culture of which our !item' ture, our music, our games, our whole 01 of life are expressions. We could afford to do without some shibboleths and stereonpes. not only our own, but those that exist about us in other countries. I should like to see the genuine pieties preserved and the se* mentalities forgotten, so that we might fa realities.'