19 MAY 1832, Page 3

Mrbatr intV protraingl ill VarTiannitt.

I. MINISTERIAL. ARRANGEMENTS. In The House of Commons, on Monday. Mr. Alderman Wool) presented the petition of i he largest corporation in England, the Livery of London. He hoped Mr. Baring would not term it a foolish petition, as he had termed' the petition from the Common Council. It was true, none of the petitioners might be quite so wealthy us Mr. Baring, but there were men among them worth from 100,0001. to 1,000,000/. He admitted that rich men could say and do foolish things as well as others ; but as the wealth of the Anti- Reformers bad been very much insisted on, he thought it but right that the House should know that they had not all the wealth. The petition prayed that the House would exercise its undoubted right to refuse the Supplies until the Reform Bill was passed: he fully concurred in the prayer, and should support it by his vote at every opportunity.

Alderman THOMPSON said, the Reform Bill must pass, and no Government could go on without adopting its principles and provisions; but he could not assent to the stopping of the Supplies.

Lord Emusurox expressed his earnest anxiety to be informed, by some one in the Duke of Wellington's confidence, of the truth or false- hood of a report that his Grace had again taken office, on the pledge of carrying the Reform Bill, or at. least its principal provisions. Lord Ebrington said he would willingly support any Ministry that supported Reform, but he could not and would not support the Duke of Wel- lington— For there was no pledge that lie could give to carry the Reform Bill, that could be stronger than those repeated pledges he had recorded in. opposition to it—pledges re- corded in leis repeated speeches, and in his written protest, of an uncompromising hos- tility to that measure. Was it possible that the Duke of Wellington could come down to the House of Peers with the Reform Bill in one hand, and his protest iu the other? and was it possible that the noble duke could call on their Lordships to pass that measure, or to pass any thing analogous to any part of that measure, with any thing like satis:hetion to that House? Was it possible for any of the noble lords who had signed that protest to be the noble duke's associates in such a line of conduct? Was it possible thr I.ord Caruervon, who had denounced the measure in the strongest manner, to support the treble duke in introducing such a measure ? Ile hoped and trusted that he knees the noble lords too well to suppose that they could act in any such way. ( Cheers from the (Ipposition, reechoed by cheers and laughter frown the Ministerial side.) He hoped that if poliiical principle still exercised the slightest sway amongst gentlemen,—if any thing like public morality still existed in the country, that neither in that nor in any other house could there be found one calling himself a gentleman, and who had de- scribed the Bill as a hill of spoliation and robbery, who would now, at the bidding of any one, so turn his back upon all he had before said, as for place to give his assent to it.

Lord Ebrington contrasted with such conduct the straightforward course he and his friends had to pursue— Though others might desert their principles, he and his honourable friends would stand steadily by the people and theirs. If the Bill, as propounded by Lord Ellen- borough, should come down to that House—which, unless, in the interval that had elapsed, the noble lord had again changed his mind, it was to be supposed it would do— to the principle of that Bill, as comprising the enfranchisement of the great towns, ex- tensive dissi.anchisement, anti the 101. qualification, Lord Ebrington, and, he had no doubt, his friends also, would give as zealous and cordial a support as they could give it bad they themselves its exclusive management. Their acts, whatever others might do, should still be the same ; and however others might, as they had in other instances, reap the immediate profit, still never would they swerve from that desire to benefit the people {chick, in and out of office, they had ever manifested. He had already given up some opinions of his own, in order that no obstacle should be thrown in the way of the.. forwarding the question of Reform, and on the same principle he should still act. But, at the same time, he would persevere in his endeavours to obtain all he had wished for the people ; and should any thing short of that be propounded, although he would be ready to take that. yet he would never rest until the whole had been achieved.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE presented himself on behalf of the Duke of Wellington—

When he heard the words of the noble lord, which implied that the acceptance of office by the Duke of Wellington would be an act of public immorality, he could not but pro- test against any such charge. He, as a friend of the Duke of Wellington, would boldly MN that there was no act of the noble duke's life which would justify any member either in making such a charge, or in throwing out even an imputation of the kind. Thai expression had been the only cause why he should rise and notice in his place what 'sulfate,' from Lord Ebrington: Upon the point in question, however, if his Majesty, in consequence of advice tendered to him by the late Ministry, was compelled. by their voluntary resignation, to call on any of his subjects to form an administration, he should only say thus much, that the Dake of Wellington in that case would act, as he ever had done, the part of a loyal and devoted subject.

Lord. MILTON said, it must gratify the House to learn from such a source that the Duke of Wellington was incapable of an act of political immorality. Sir Henry, however, had mistaken what Lord Ebrington said—

What Lord Ebrington said was, that if tire Duke of Wellington. after the speeches he bad made, and the protest he had written, should consent to accept office on the condi- tion of carrying a bid which he had characterized as-revolutionary, then the noble duke would be guilty ofpablic immorality.

This was a charge which no man, not even Sir Henry Hardinge, could possibly deny. Lord. Milton remarked on the excuse of loyalty proffered by Sir Henry_ The gallant officer bad said that the condost of the Duke of Wellington would be that of a loyal and devoted subject. Lord Milton hoped that loyalty was not to be con- strued to mean a subservience to the caprices of any man. If Sir Henry would say that there was any individual in the kingdom, however high in station, who ought to have the power to call on -any man under the name of loyalty to sacrifice his own sincere and recorded opinions, Lord Milton would tell him that not only would sack e pool' be incompatible with the existence of any thing, like honest freedom of opinion, but would totally destroy that responsibility of the Ministers of the Crown which the Constitution had imposed upon them for its own preservation.

Mr. Ba.aiNG gave what he called the true state of the case-

MIttravnot that his Majesty had dismissed his Ministers (Loud laughter), but that his asters lia4 renounced the service of his Majesty. (Continued laughter, and cries of IlearP') That was the state of the question ; and upon that, as the sneer of the

honourable gentlemen opposite intimated, there would undoubtedly arise another gum. tion,—whether the resignation of Ministers was their own fault or that of his Majesty, It would, however, be more conformable with the practice of that House. and the prim. ciplcs of the Constitution, not to speak of his Majesty as hat ing mironitted a faults bat= to attribute the fault, if fault it be, to the influence which some phantom adviser might be supposed to have over his Majesty's mind. Such being simply the state of the ques- tion before the country, he would ask honourable gentlemen to consider whether it emus generous or fair towards the Crown to be irritating the country from one end to another; before the Crown was in a position to make an answer to the accusations brought: against it.

He acquitted Ministers of having employed any irritating or indeco-• rous language, and counselled equal moderation to their friends—

He would also putt it to the friends of Ministers, and particularly to the two noble lords who had lately addressed the (louse, whether it was not consistent with honour,. good faith, and common decency, to wait at least until the Crown had the means of being constitutionally beard in that House, before 'proclaiming the Sovereign from one end of the kingdom to another as a faithless person, who had for a long time stood for- ward as the advocate of that great measure of Reform whirls had beets received by a great mass of the country with favour and popularity. but who haul all at once turned: round and disappointed the expectations of the people ?

Such, Mr. Baring added, was the language " spouted" at the public- meetings. He counselled patience— Ile entirely agreed with what had fallen from his honourable friend the member for Preston on a former occasion, that though that House might feel anxious about parties and particular men, vet the only feeling in the country was—what was to become or the great measure of Reform. It would, however, be only fair for the country. to wait, and the country would be disposed to wait. if it was not agitated and excited by obsess various made, more especially in that house, to know whether the King had, in point of fact, committed e hat might be called a breach of faith with the country. For he ad: milted that, whatever might be his own opinion, or the opinion of others, with respect to the merits of the particular Bill of Reform introduced by the Government, the Crown had undoubtedly given a pledge to the country of a desire to effect a very extensive measure of reform ; and uo person could approach the King, and advise him so far to sacrifice iris own character, and to sacrilice the monarchy of the country, as to break faith with the people.

He admitted that if the King had turned round and refused to allow- the Reform Bill to pass into a law, it would be a very serious matter-- If that were the ease. that would undoubtedly be a very serious matter. and the Crown must have been advised so to act by someliody. He was perfectly ready to ads mit that advice of such a description was of a most pernicious kind, and deserving the reprobation of that House and the country. But as far as he could understand this question,—and his information was mainly derived from what Lord Althorp had com- municated to the House,—the ground on which Ministers had resigned was very dir, ferent. Ile understood that the K iug had been called on not only to deal with the. constitution or the House of Commons, but also to deal with the House of Lords ; and to establish this most dangerous and most atrocious principle, that every time there was any great subject on which the two Houses of Parliament differed, the Ministers' were entitled to call on the Crown to three the Peers to agree with the Commons; by sending into the Upper House an immense number of new Peers ; and that, upon thn. Crown iefusing to do so, the Ministers were justified in throwing up their commissions- in the thee of their master : and then the country was to be tole, not that the King had conscientious scruples which made him hesitate to overpower one branch of the Legisla- ture, but that, forsooth, he had actual falsely and perndiously.

He said that his own opinion of the Reform Bill had not in any- respect altered, but he had long ago admitted that the Bill must passe notwithstanding—

He bad, for no sinister purpose, but even before the meeting of the present Parties- ment, stated in the presence of several members of that House. at a meeting in tins London Tavern, that though Iris opinion with respect to the Bill remained unaltered; in the slightest degree, yet he did think at that time that such was the feeling in the, country in favour of 'leftism, that unless a very large portion of that Bill was conceded, there would be no permanent peace in the country. That was his statement twelve months ago, and he mentioned. the matter now merely to show that a man might be; perfectly justified in adopting a measure of which he himself did not approve, for the purpose of averting dangers of a worse description. This was a species of public im- morality of which he was perfectly ready to admit that he was guilty. How the Duke of Wellington intended to act, Mr. Baring could not say ; but. when an anticipated change of the noble duke's conduct with respect to the question of Reform was desigss nated a great net of immorality, Mr. Baring was anxious to take his share of the- blame for conduct which the honourable gentlemen opposite so much censured, but which he maintained to be perfectly defensible.

Lord ALTHORP concurred in opinion with Mr. Baring, that the. country ought to suspend its judgment until the King had a responsible: servant through whom to communicate with the House. He defended[ Lords Ebrington and Milton's line of argument— What his noble friends had alluded to was, not the conduct of his Majesty, but thew conduct of those individuals who, having always opposed the Reform Bill, not only he, its principles but in its details also, should now accept office with the view of carrying, it. It was to that state of things that the observations of his noble friends were applied; and he must say that he did not think that they expressed themselves in stronger lan- guage than men ought to use under such circumstances. He expressed his gratification at hearing from Mr. Baring that, in' 'his opinion, a large measure of reform was necessary— It was, therefore, no small pleasure for him to know, that though it might not fall to the lot of him and his colleagues to carry the Reform Bill as Ministers, yet they had. done this service to their country-,—they had, by their labours and exertions. secured the passing of a measure of reform, and of large reform too. The honourable gentle man had said—and said most truly, for, from hearses:. Lord. Althorp could confirm the: statement—that many months ago he was of opinion that it was necessary to carry_ ans extensive measure of reform. Ile had been aware that the honourable' gentleman en- tertained that opinion, though it would, undoubtedly, have been extremely difficult tcr have made the discovery from the honourable gentleman's votes or speeches in that House.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE spoke nearly as follows- " Within these few minutes, I have heard that a declaration has been just made ire another place, by Lord Carnarvon, that the new Administration is for accepting some of the minor parts of the Reform Bill, and that it has been postponed until Thursdays. in order that it may then be taken into consideration by the other House of Perlis: meat._ We know that the Duke of Wellington was appointed on Saturday last. We also what was his first acts—his first act was to insult the people of BirmMghtusrs- He sent back their petition, and refused to lay it at the foot of the Throne, on the idle-

pretext that he knew of no such body as that from which it emanated. We are now to tter-stand that the Administration has been formed; and as the Bill is to he taken into

consideration on Thursday, I suppose that the next. we shall hear will be that publics principles, like public meetings, are a farce.' If the Duke of Wellington did not means to pursue the Reform Bill, instead of postponing it until Thursday, the motion wand have been to discharge the order for 1.1, ins. it into consideration. Where he has found Ministers to fill his Cabinet, I know not; but we all know who was the noble and learned individual first employed to compound the Administration; and we now find that that Administration is about to adopt the very Bill which it denounced only a few hours ago as revolutionary. I cannot say that the measure has fallen into hands more worthy of it, or niece worthy of the task of passing it: I do not deny the noble lord's learning or talents, but his whole life has been one scene of political prostitution and apostacy. Again I say, of what materials the Administration will be formed it is imps usable yet to guess; but if it is to be compesed of the opponents of the Reform Bill, theft prineipiesmust be, like certain vehicles, set upon crane-necked carriages, the advent. tage of which is, that they turn round in thesmailest possible space. In such a vehicle must the Duke of Wellington .go dawn to the House of Lords. What will be the beasts that draw him, who the charioteer that drives him, or who the pensioned tearless that stand behind him, I know not ; but this 'know, that, under such circumstances, I would rather be the tailor that turns his coat than the Duke of Wellington with all his glories. But iftbetemporal lords Lave no consciences to be consulted, what is to become of the spirituel peers? Are the Bishops tobe hung upon crane-necked carriages too? Are they of a sadden to ling up their mitres and halloo for 'the Bill, thewhole Bill, and nothing but theBillr One of these right reverend prelates made a most solemn appeal to the House upon the subject ; and as it has since been published from authority in the shape of a pamphlet, I may be excused for quoting a passage from it : it wasa speechdelivered on the question, that the Reform Bill be read a second time—' My Lords,' said the Bishop.' but one thing ip right, and one thing only—to walk uprightly ; that is in your own power. As for the consequences, they are in the power of God. Will you distrust that power ? My Lords, you will not.' I say to the House of Peers= My Lords, you will distrust that power,' unless the Duke of Wellington and place are your God. The honourable member fur Thetford has talked about the creation of Peers—forsooth that it would degrade the House of Lords ; but this base violation of public principle—this base violation of public protest, will do more to degrade the House of Lords than the creation of a hun- dred Peers."

Some interruption was occasioned here by Sir HENRY HARDINGE'S rising to demand an explanation from Mr. IDuncombe. The Speaker suggested, that Mr. Dunconabe should be allowed to proceed; and Sir lienry, who made a second attempt, was drowned with cries of '! Spoke !"—

" I repeat that if the house of Lords be guilty of the base violation of public prin- ciple awl recorded protest, it will do more to lower them in the estimation of the people of England, thou the creation of a hundred Peers. I agree also with the right reverend prelate I have already quoted in another sentiment contained in his speech, where he says of the Lords—aced let that House look to it--' My Lords, Willis House shall ever fall from its palmy state, it will fall by corruption front within. It war fall by t lR or by guilt—by the cowardiets or treachery of some, it thene shall be any such, of its own degen,qate members.' I say that they cannot be so degenerate ; I do not believe that there are any such ; that they will not so grossly violate the pledges they have given in the face of tied and their country. nut we are told, by the honourable member lbr Thetford, that the Duke of Weenie; ton has, at last, heard the imperious call of the people for Reform ; that the voices raised at those' farces'—public meetings—have, at length, reached him ; and that the Duke of Wellington means to give us Reform. Reform from the Duke of Wellington ! Reform from the Tories! We are to be taught Reform by these honourable and right honourable apostates ! The people are to learn the value of it eren at, as Deus Swift tells us the ancients learnt how to prune their views ; they found that when asses had browsed upon them, they throve more vigorously, and pro- duced better fruit : so in this case, because the 'furies have, at last, nibbled at Reform, it is to thrive more vigorously and to produce better fruit. I say that what comes from so polluted a source must be corrupt, and that we ought rimy'. to distrust the Tories more than when they affeet to be But if this Administration be formed, what, I want to know; am they to do with this I louse ? Will they dissolve the Parliament which the King called in order that it might speak the sense of the people ? It has been said that we have connected the King's name with Reform. Let me ask the ho- nourable metuber for Thetfonl this : will dissolving the Parliament separate the King's name from Reform? Will dissolving the Parliament separate the names of other members of the Royal Family from Reform? I will give the House the titles of some of those members—the illustrious Cumberland, and the sapient Gloucester"—

On this mention of their Royal Highnesses, Sir HENRY HARDINGE again rose, and the Speaker also interposed. Mr. BUNCOMBE apolo- gized, and proceeded- , •." If the new Ministry should venture to dissolve this Parliament, they may depend upon it they will not better their situation; and the inevitable result will be theirtletisat, disgrace, and dishonour. You may reject the petitions of Political Unions, but it will

be in vain : the People will and ought to be heard. On Saturday I heard that the peti- tion of the Birmiugham Union had been sent back. I have never yet belonged to :Loy of those bodies ; but time moment I learned that fact, I enrolled my name. You mav

talk as you please about putting down Political Unions. I should like to see the ques- tion tried whether Political Unions can be put down. I maintain that you cannot put them down but by grunting Reform. A Political Union is quite as legal and constitu- tional a body as that political union known by the name of the Cumberland or Con- servative Club. I shall trouble the House at present no farther; but in sitting down

I think it right to say that I shall oppose and defeat the new Administration by all the means the forms of this House allow. Out of doors, I shall adopt every possible constitu- tional measure to resist and embarrass them—by agitation, if you like to call it so, or in any other way, until I see those when have been the prime movers of this base outrage upon the nation's feelings hurled from their lofty station and biting the very dust of Reform, amid the curses of feelings insulted people and the execration of an indignant Parliament."

Mr. BEAUMONT declared his intention to do every thing in the way of agitation and resistance that the law and the constitution permitted, for the purpose of removing the enemies of the people from the councils of the King.

Mr. MACAULAY spoke strongly on the presumed conduct of the Duke of Wellington. In concluding, he said— He should give no confidence to such a Ministry, coming into power upon principles directly contrary to those to which, in the protest, they had pledged themselves. He should, indeed, always support the Reform Bill, through whatever hands it might be carried ; but on the day after the passing of the Bill, lee should take such measures as might be the best calculated to show that the House would give no confidence or sup- port to such an Administration. To state at once that he would take that course, was a duty which be owed to himself; for the present was a time when the character of public men required, above all things, to be carefully looked to; and he believed that the time was not distant when character and power would be synonymous. Therefore, if others would leave infamy and place, let the House of Commons at least have honour and Reform.

Sir HENRY ILutraNGE once more rose, and was about to make some remarks, but be was compelled to resume his seat under the cries of `f Spoke !" The Speaker seemed anxious to give him an opportunity of making a speech, but the House did not concur.

• Mr. MACAULAY said, he would assure Sir Henry, that in any thing which lie had said, he bad no intention to swagger, as Sir Henry sup- posed. The gallant baronet was not more aware than he, that to use swaggering language in that House was a very equivocal proof either. of sense or spirit.

•

Sir GEORGE MURRAY spoke to the question of morality- ife must say, that surely it was the duty of public men to follow at any time the course which the public good, according to the circumstances of the times, required. .

He adverted to Lord John Russell's change of opinion on Reform, and the change of sentiment in other members of the Legislature ; and asked whether, if they could change without inconsistency, others might not follow their example. Sir George concluded, that as they knew nothing of the sentiments of the King, or that he had abandoned any principles which he ever professed, the only line that it became the House to follow was to support the Crown.

Captain BERKELEY regretted that the House of Commons had not tacked the Reform Bill to the Supplies. He mentioned having ob- served troops in motion in various quarters— Whether they were changing their quarters, he did not know; but to see bodies of troops traversing the country in all directions, at a period of excitement like the pre- sent, was sufficient to " fright the isle from its propriety."

Lord Jour! RUSSELL noticed Sir George Murray's accusation of his having changed his opinions on the subject of Reform— The only change which could be brought home to him was, that in the course of about twelve years, from being a Reformer—not a very moderate one—having gone to the extent of proposing to take one hundred members from close boroughs, and give them to large towns,—from being a Reformer of that kind, he had become a Reformer to a greater extent, and proposed that which he had for a long time been anxious to avoid doing—namely, the total disfranchisement, instead of partial disfranchisement, of the nomination boroughs. .

How had this change of sentiment been wrought in him?— First, by the obstinate resistance of the opponents of Reform; secondly, by a com- plete alteration in the state of the country ; and thirdly, by comparing the opinions of persons of the greatest authority, who differed with each other on this and all other questions; and amongst these persons he would mention Lord Grey and Mr. Canning,

who were both of opinion, that if Reform was to be carried—the one considering it a benefit and the other an evil—it ought to be founded on principle, and to be so framed, if possible, as to be as final a measure as legislation could carry into effect.

The last consideration that weighed with him was the declaration of the Duke of Wellington that Parliament ought not to be reformed at all. But what was there in his alteration of sentiments, brought about in the course of twelve years, and that which had been effected in twelve days ?

With respect to the Bill, lie said, with the honourable and learned member for Caine, that he was willing to secure that which would be a great benefit to the country, come from whose hands it might. When he spoke thus, he meant the Bill in all its princi- ples and essential details. He, however, looked with great apprehension to the future prospects of the country, when be considered the circumstances under which the new Administration was about to accept office. Ile could not treat the extraordinary change of opinion which was said to have taken place as lightly as Mr. Baring did. It was difficult to understand why, a single week ago, the new Ministers had not professed themselves willing to carry the Bill. Why did they not say —" We do not object to the Bill: give us your offices, and we v, ilLearry it?" If that proposition had been made to him and his colleagues, they would haite been ready to resign t heir power. They would have replied to their opponents—. Office to us is only a source of anxiety—a bed of thorns ; and if you are disposed to revoke all the declarations which you have made. and every sentiment which you have uttered, and will really carry the Bill. you may come into our places at once." If, however, no change of opinion had taken place. the Bill would be mutilated, its provisions would be changed, and it would no lunger be the measure which was passed by the House of Commons. It appeared to be somewhat uncertain at present whether the new Administration would alter the Bill to snit their opielions, or whether they would abandon their opinions to possess power, which ap- peared to them to be an object of ambition.

There was yet another question, namely, that which involved the character of public men— When Mr. Ifuskisson made it the condition of his continuing to form part of the Ad ministration, that he should be asked by the Duke of Wellington to remain, the noble duke refused to consent to solicitation, which he thou:zits beneath his high station, and made this reply to Mr. lInskisson—" I am fully sensible or time loss which I shall sus- tain; but I am convineol that in these times any loss is better than that of character— it is the foundation of public confidence." Those being the sentiments of the noble duke. he could not believe even to that hour that he would place himself in a situation which would enable any man to say to him—"You have belied your pledge and falsified your eeduioas; and no man hereafter, when you express an opinion, however solemnly you may declare it, even should you place it on the records of Parliament, will have any- sort of confidence or security that you may not sweep away the whole of your pledges in a single day."

Having alluded to the last solemn declaration against the Bill by Sir Robert Peel, which, with his more recent announcement, precluded the chance of the Duke of Wellington's or any Government framed on such principles receiving his support, Lord Jobn concluded— Whether the Bill should be passed by Whig, Tory, or Radical,—come from what party soever it might,—it would be a great and permanent blessing to the country, by securing to the people good government ; but after leaving passed the Bill, he declared now, once and for all, that never for a single moment would he give his confidence to men whom he thought would stand publicly dishonoured to the latest posterity.

The debate was continued by Sir EDWARD SUGDEN, Lord PALME1I- STON, Sir TH031AS DENMAN, and Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS said— If the Duke of Wellington accepted place with the intention of giving his sanction to Reform, he was doing that which was wrong, and vastly out of keeping, with all his former declarations on the subject. He would not take upon himself to say what might be the motive—whether it was ambition, or 'whether it was any thing else ; but be it what it might, lee thought that there were no considerations which, under such cir- cumstances, could justify the- noble duke in taking office ; for it was impossible that there could be any doubts as to his sentiments after the protest and the speeches which he had mule upon this subject.

Sir ROBERT PEEL spoke of the cause of Ministers' retiring-

" In order to carry a certain measure through the other House of Parliament, the Mi- nisters advised his Majesty to create a number of Peers. Wheat that number was, I know not. Some say, to an indefinite extent ; others leave named thirty, forty, sixty. or seventy :but at all events, to such an extent as would have proved fatal to the authority of the House of Lords. (Cheers.) His Majesty declined to accede to that advice, and the consequence is, that the King is now attempting to form another Administration. Now it appears, in the course of these debates on this very day, that there is no one who has authority in this House to ,speak on the part of that Administration. The honourable member for Hertford, referring irregularly, but perhaps necessarily-, to what has taken place in another House, has told us that there a declaration was made to the effect that another Administration was formed. If the honourable member himself heard that statement, it is of course unlikely that there can be any mistake on the sub- ject ; but it certainly does seem strange that an Administration should be formed, and that there should be no one in this House to give any explanation on the subject. If, therefore, the honourable member has only spoken from report, I should be inclined to think that that report must be erroneous.'

Sir Robert animadverted on what had fallen from Lord John Rus- sell respecting Sir Robert's intended course towards the Government of the Duke of Wellington- " I think that the noble lord's reference to me was entirely unnecessary ; and I will tell the noble lord further, that some time ago, when office was not within my reach, I stated that it was no object to me: now that it is within my reach, I will again repeat

that observation; so that it will be seen that I claim no credit for any supposed sacri- fice. lithe noble lord's inference is correct, that I feel tenable to enter into the service of the Crown, I will at entreats add this to it—that I bitterly regret that, in time situa- tion in which leis Majesty, is now placed, I am not able to accept office ; and that the greatest regret that attends my refusal of office is the possibility of its affording an op- portunity for sarcasm being pointed by contrast against those who feel themselves able to join the new Administration."

Mr. HUME asked, whether the Address of the House had been pre- sented to the King, and whether any answer bad been received to it?

The SPEAKER said, it had gone into the hands of the King's establish- ment—into the hands of those to whom such addresses were usually confided. He could only guess at the cause of no answer being re- ceived : it might be that the King had no responsible servant through whom to send the answer.

Mr. HUME repeated the question ; but the Speaker could giYe no other answer.

On the question that the London petition (which gave rise to the preceding debate) be brought up, Lord EBRINGTON replied to Sir Henry Hardinge and Mr. Baring-

" The noble duke's friends are under a mistake if they suppose that there is any thing in his great name, in his high situation, or even in his eminent services—which no one is snore ready gratefully to acknowledge than myself—I say the noble duke's friends are much mistaken if they suppose that there is any thing in these circum- stances which can screen his character, as a public man, from undergoing the same in- vestigation, from being subject to the same discussion, from being judged on the same principles, and from being decided upon on the same grounds with those of every other public matt in this country. Sir, it is with this freedom and in this manner that I shall always assert my right as an independent member of Parliament. I trust that I shall always do so with the respect that is due to this House, and in language becoming my- self as a gentleman; and, indeed, I trust that I am not in the habit of bringing any charge against my political opponents in any other language, notwithstanding what Mr. Baring has been pleased to lay to my charge. That honourable gentleman has thought proper to read me a lesson with respect to my-supposed want of common de- cency, for such, I think, were the words that he presumed to apply to me. Sir, I will not bandy with him; but lee must allow me to say, that if there is any one in this House to whom I should be disposed to apply such language, it would be to him— Lord ALTHORP did not join in these joyful visions— rising this night, as he has done, to make a tardy deteuce of political inconsistency on Those who indulged in anticipations of the possibility. of a compromise between par- the part of himself or others, shed I have heard him. time after time, in this House, ties, should recollect what is the real state of public affairs. At the present moment, as raking up speeches made ten or twenty years ago, and extracts from pamphlets ; and. they had heard that night from a right honourable gentleman, doubtless well informed on the strength of these, applying to my noble friend Lord John 'Russell terms of vile.. on the subject. the new Administration was completely formed in all its most esseutial peration, which, until this Reform Bill was introduced, I never heard applied by any- points. The proposition, as far as he understood it, was, that in consequence of the

body, in the greatest heat of political party, to any Minister of the Crown." discussions which had taken place in that House, it is to be expected that some arrange- "Gentlemen w men seem this evening to have argued as if there was no alternative to be adopted by the noble duke, except either admitting a forced creation of Peers by the Ring, or accepting the Government of the country and dragging the Lords to the passing of the Bill. But. Sir, is there no third course? Is it absolutely necessary that those

who have so deeply pledged themselves against the Bill should Low be compelled to eat satisfied it would pass the House of Lords ; but he did not believe that in the present their words? (' Hear, kear ! 1 I wish that the right honourable baronet, or any per- asttue of the House of Lords it was possible for the late Administration to carry such

son not liable to any imputations, W011111 show how it can be settled. If the noble duke . himself could stand up and say that the impossibility he finds to conduct the affairs of Lord SANDON declared his conviction, that the Lords, by their vote the country would make hint use all his iufluenee among his friends to pass the men. of Monday, had not the slightest intention of injuring the Reform Bill. sure, he would succeed, no doubt, in putting an end to further discussion. 1 will not say when that should be done, or when it would come too late. If a course of that Mr. HUNT agreed with those members who asserted that the country description had been adopted within the last finv days. even within the last forty-eight was in such a state that there were very few persons, either in that or hours, much peril would have been avoided to the country. The characaer of the noble ill the other House of Parliament, who could restore it to peace and duke would have stood a great deal higher, and In, would have cradled himself to the good-humour. Nor would he disguise the fact, that the only persons lasting gratitude of the country. At the same tine, the character and conduct of the House of Lords would not be subject, as under other circumstances they would, to who were at all likely to succeed in tranquillizing the people, were the lasting execration." late Government. Whether they really could do so or not, he did not Wellington. He stated, on the authority of a noble Lord [whom he promptly—that it must be done without intermission or delay—other- did not name], that so secure was Schedule A, that not twenty Peers wise he would defy any man to say what might happen in the course of would have voted against its retention ; and that if Ministers had waited eight-and-forty hours. for forty-eight hours, they would have discovered this. He came at Mr. DAVIES GILBERT thought that since the Reform Bill, as was

length to the concluding part of Lord Ebrington's speech— admitted on all hands, must be carried, it ought to be carried by those

"The noble Lord says, or at least his words, I think, bear that construction, that he who had introduced, and not by those who had opposed it.

should be glad if any thin" could be done to give an approach even to such a proposal ; and that if the Peers would vote Schedule A, that might induce the Ministers of the The motion for adjournment, after some further conversation, was Crown to relax in their determination, and not to advise that which they only thought carried.

a less evil than not risking the measure. I should think myself, that if Lord Grey goes back to the King, stating his unwillingness to employ those means which In the House of Lords, on Tuesday, Earl GREY having moved the he had already admitted he entertained a great repugnance to perform, and stating that adjournment of the House to Thursday, stated that he did so in con- he expected, with great probability, that the Lords would not differ from him, except as to the details of the Bill—if Lord Grey would so state to the King, I see no difficulty sequence of having received a message from his Majesty.

in the Ministers again taking their places. I do not see any objection to this." Lord KENYON was anxious to know if the late Ministers were to

He thought it would be most unfortunate for the country should the resume their places.

had interfered between the nation and the Crown, tlm nation would know how to treat pr'ss his ardent and sincere hope tint the state of things, to the administration of

them. wind: the Government were about to return, would terminate in some arrangement for Sir Francis, after some observation on the Duke's votes, and on the the benefit and peace of the country.

lapse of that prerogative by which writs used to be issued to new :',Ir. Baring added—

boroughs as well as withheld from old, went on to describe some of Ile wished to take that opportunity of correcting a misapprehension which ae these intriguers— Itiainurable gentleman had last night fallen into, when he said that it was understood

A Judge, one of the highest in the land, a Criminal Judge of the most eminent eta- the Duke or Wellington had accepted office. Ile had not done so. Matters had not

tion, had appeared on all occasions as a violent politician. Ile would contend that a judge. and still more a criminal judge, should hold himself utterly cut off from politics, Lord ALTIIORP said-

. and from the conflicts of party. He would suppose this noble person sitting on the " Had not the honourable gentleman anticipated me, Sir, it was my intention, as soon benelt administering justice ; he would suppose that a stranger entered the noble lord's as I had taken my scat, to rise for the purpose of informing the House that. Earl Grey court in the morning, and that he saw much reason to admire the calm dionity and has received a communication from his Majesty this day ; and therefbre I intend to self-possession with which the noble baron dispensed justice to the suitors. 'What, he site gest to the House the propriety of adjourning over to-morrow, and I shall presently would ask, would that same stranger have said had he seen the noble baron in the take an oppottunity of moving that this House at its rising do adjourn over to-morrow. evening ? How much surprised would he not have been to see the noble baron turned into a political partisan, and heading in the House of Lords a violent and virulent ile''sjil ire] v Concur width what the honourable gentleman has stated, that it will be most Party ? inlile, under the present circumstances of the country, that honourable gentlemen

Some interruption, on the point of order, took place; and Sir not Lave that of allaying the feelings of excitement that now exist."

Francis went on to putt Lord Lyndhurst's case hypothetically— Mr. HOME said, before the vote was taken, he wished to throw out lie was merely speaking of that which Ile thought he bad a right, nay, that it was one suggestion—

his duty to mention—the conduct of a judge. Ile was speaking, as it was his duty to

do, of the effect of intrigues, he knew not liy whom carried on ; and among the other Ile trusted that whatever arrangement was now made would he a final arrangement, misfortunes of their situation, lie had alluded to a judge. He did not call hint the so t hat the people might lie satisfied that this measure would be carried into effixt. He leader of a faction, but the leader of a party—the maker and unmakes of Administra- said this, for lie had for months been apprehensive of that which had now takeu place, tions--a man who was seen everywhere, and who seemed to have under his legal robes front the circumstance of individuals remaining in office, who, he trusted, would stow an influence hostile to no longer be allowed to retain situations where

the motley dress of a harlequin—a man, in short, who was every thing and every person they might exert —who seemed to be all mankind's epitome—and who was in expectance, by his ma- nceuvres, of reaching the very highest office in the state. This was what he had been The conversation, after a few words from Mr. TENNYSON, dropped, speaking of as an event to be deplored. There seemed, however, to be a rumour, a sort and the House adjourned to Thursday. of mistreated rumour, that an Administration under such circumstances and auspices

could not be formed; and if any thing was to happen in the present state of the country, The Lords were no sooner met on Thursday night, than the Duke such was the condition to ',Odell they were reduced, that it was hard to know to whom, of Wellington rose, and taking occasion of the presenting of an Allti■ in such a case, the King was to apply. This, then, was the situation to which they Reform petition from Cambridge, proceeded to give what he termed an were reduced by the unfortunate opposition to the Bill. Those who had been thus far

successful, seemed, however, to be frightened at their own work. explanation of his conduct for the last ten days. He said he was the Sir Francis concluded— more anxious to do this, because his conduct had been extremely mis-

He thought it would become the Duke of Wellington much more if, instead ofgetting speech from the Times— together a Cabinet to carry the same Bill, and then, as it was reported, resigning im- 4nediately afterwards, he used his influence with the House of Peers to induce them to " Ycnr Lordships will recollect, that on Wednesday last, the King's Ministers ill- -pass the Bill under the auspices of the Minister who had first proposed it to them. If formed ParliaMent. that in consequence of an advice Which they had deemed it their he dicl so, he would have the gratification of seeing the Constitution again an object of duty to tender his Majesty, not being considered by his Majesty tit to be adopted, they venemtion to the people, and the Monarch restored to the affections of his.suhjects. felt it to be their duty to resign. On that day, his Majesty was graciously pleased, Mr. HUME, under the circumstances, thought no greater blessing whew he felt himself left alone—I say most unexpectedly left alone—by his entire Go- vernment, to send Gtr Lord Lyndhurst, who had filled a high office in his service, and could happen to the country than an arrangement by which Lord Grey who stood high in his confidence, for the purpose of inquiring from my noble friend might return to office. He felt sure, if Lord Grey saw a prospect of whether in his opinion means existed, and what means, of forming an Administration being restored to the full confidence of the King, he had the country's on the principle of carrying into execution an extensive Reform o the representation good too much at heart to stand on any idle ceremony. He thought of the People. It is important, your Lordships, to consider the character of the person wlsmi the King thus called upon for counsel in the embarrassing situation in which he as the best thing they could do was to adjourn, in order to allow an op- w placed by his Ministers. It appears, that when his Majesty found that he could portunity for such an arrangement: not, consistently with his high duty to the state, follow the advice proffered him by his

Mr. LABOUCTIEUE spoke to the same effect— servants,—so little communication had he with any public men save his responsible ed-

He trusted that the independent members of that House would use their just in- almost completely out of the line of politics. My noble and learned friend having at- fluence ; and that those who had been Ministers, and those who expected to be Mi- tended the bidding of his Sovereign, communicated to me the difficulties in which his 'deters, maim, under the eireuiruitances. abandon their intentions, and save the country Majesty was placed, in order to ascertain how far it was in my power to assist in ex. Iron) the three perils that threatened it—first, that the Reform Bill would not prove trieating him from them. With this view I thought it my duty to institute similar in... satisffictory to the people ; next, that the character of all public men might escape the queries, the rather as I was myself as unprepared as his Majesty for the advice which ,staill Which would tall on it if those who had always opposed the Bill now carried it his It had tendered, and for the consequences which had ensued from its being into a law: end, lastly, that the elterneter of the S.oyereign might not any longer suffer rejected. On inquiry I found that there was a large number of most influential per-

present Ministers quit office ; for if the Bill passed, and if less good accrued from it than was expected, the popular notion would be, that if the Ministry that projected had carried it, the disappointment would not have happened.

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT felt strongly the unpleasant situation in which they were placed, but Ministers were not to blame— Of all the duties of public men, none was more imperative than that of preserving their character and honour, for, without preserving them, they could not he of service to the public. He did not doubt his Matiesty's good intentions and the candour of the Royal mind, neither did he doubt that his Majesty was placed in circumstances of ex- ceeding difficulty; and not doubting either the candour of the Royal mind or the difficulty of the Koval situation, he was sure, if his Majesty found it difficult to decide, he must also be sensible of the difficult circumstances of his Ministers; and he could not be astonished that they should have resigned, nor could he find, in their having done so, any cause of complaint. Under these circumstances, he trusted and hoped that means would be found of procuring the success of' that Bill, without any useless dis- cussion, when, under the circumstances of the country, its final success was inevitable.

Sir Francis thought it became the character of the Duke of Wel- lington to further these means— rising this night, as he has done, to make a tardy deteuce of political inconsistency on Those who indulged in anticipations of the possibility. of a compromise between par- the part of himself or others, shed I have heard him. time after time, in this House, ties, should recollect what is the real state of public affairs. At the present moment, as raking up speeches made ten or twenty years ago, and extracts from pamphlets ; and. they had heard that night from a right honourable gentleman, doubtless well informed on the strength of these, applying to my noble friend Lord John 'Russell terms of vile.. on the subject. the new Administration was completely formed in all its most esseutial peration, which, until this Reform Bill was introduced, I never heard applied by any- points. The proposition, as far as he understood it, was, that in consequence of the

body, in the greatest heat of political party, to any Minister of the Crown." discussions which had taken place in that House, it is to be expected that some arrange- Lord Ebrington proceeded— meat may take idace, and that the House of Lords will withdraw their opposition to the Bill. Now, in his humble opinion, there was nothing more unlikely. Ile thought it WaS as unlikely a thing as any he had ever heard, that the Lords would withdraw their opposition to the Bill as it now stood, and that honourable gentlemen were indulging in unfounded expectations. Ile believed the Reform Bill would be carried, and he was s

son not liable to any imputations, W011111 show how it can be settled. If the noble duke . himself could stand up and say that the impossibility he finds to conduct the affairs of Lord SANDON declared his conviction, that the Lords, by their vote the country would make hint use all his iufluenee among his friends to pass the men. of Monday, had not the slightest intention of injuring the Reform Bill. sure, he would succeed, no doubt, in putting an end to further discussion. 1 will not say when that should be done, or when it would come too late. If a course of that Mr. HUNT agreed with those members who asserted that the country description had been adopted within the last finv days. even within the last forty-eight was in such a state that there were very few persons, either in that or hours, much peril would have been avoided to the country. The characaer of the noble ill the other House of Parliament, who could restore it to peace and duke would have stood a great deal higher, and In, would have cradled himself to the good-humour. Nor would he disguise the fact, that the only persons lasting gratitude of the country. At the same tine, the character and conduct of the House of Lords would not be subject, as under other circumstances they would, to who were at all likely to succeed in tranquillizing the people, were the lasting execration." late Government. Whether they really could do so or not, he did not Mr. BARING, in a second speech, defended himself and the Duke of know ; but this he knew, that whatever was done must be done Wellington. He stated, on the authority of a noble Lord [whom he promptly—that it must be done without intermission or delay—other- did not name], that so secure was Schedule A, that not twenty Peers wise he would defy any man to say what might happen in the course of would have voted against its retention ; and that if Ministers had waited eight-and-forty hours. for forty-eight hours, they would have discovered this. He came at Mr. DAVIES GILBERT thought that since the Reform Bill, as was

length to the concluding part of Lord Ebrington's speech— admitted on all hands, must be carried, it ought to be carried by those and that if the Peers would vote Schedule A, that might induce the Ministers of the The motion for adjournment, after some further conversation, was Crown to relax in their determination, and not to advise that which they only thought carried.

in the Ministers again taking their places. I do not see any objection to this." Lord KENYON was anxious to know if the late Ministers were to Lord GREY said, he was sure the House would see that it would not be discreet in him to explain farther—

Ile had stated all he had a right to state, under the circumstances—namely, that he hail received a communication from his Majesty. Of course the House must know this communication could only refer to the present state of the country, consequent on the resignation of the late Ministry. The communication, however, had been so recently made, that it was impossible for him to explain himself farther; and the more so, as nothing decisive had been the result. It was not in his power, therefore, to state what the noble baron was so anxious to extort from him—namely, that it was decided the members of the present Administration should retain their places.

Nothing more was communicated. In the Commons, on the same evening, after some conversation, in which the conduct of the mob at St. Bride's Church on Sunday towards the Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry was severely condemned, mud a few words from Mr. HumE on the anxious and agitated state of the country,

Mr. BARING rose, and stated, that the communications with the Duke of Wellington for the formation of a Ministry were at an end—

If there were other persons of a different disposition, low and factious intriguers, who A [ler having made that statement, he had no other observations to offer, bad to ex-

had interfered between the nation and the Crown, tlm nation would know how to treat pr'ss his ardent and sincere hope tint the state of things, to the administration of

them. wind: the Government were about to return, would terminate in some arrangement for Sir Francis, after some observation on the Duke's votes, and on the the benefit and peace of the country.

A Judge, one of the highest in the land, a Criminal Judge of the most eminent eta- the Duke or Wellington had accepted office. Ile had not done so. Matters had not

come to that point at all.

shoeld abstain from continuing discussions, which, if they have any effect at all, will

his duty to mention—the conduct of a judge. Ile was speaking, as it was his duty to

the motley dress of a harlequin—a man, in short, who was every thing and every person they might exert this measure.

nceuvres, of reaching the very highest office in the state. This was what he had been The conversation, after a few words from Mr. TENNYSON, dropped, speaking of as an event to be deplored. There seemed, however, to be a rumour, a sort and the House adjourned to Thursday. of mistreated rumour, that an Administration under such circumstances and auspices

4nediately afterwards, he used his influence with the House of Peers to induce them to " Ycnr Lordships will recollect, that on Wednesday last, the King's Ministers ill- -pass the Bill under the auspices of the Minister who had first proposed it to them. If formed ParliaMent. that in consequence of an advice Which they had deemed it their he dicl so, he would have the gratification of seeing the Constitution again an object of duty to tender his Majesty, not being considered by his Majesty tit to be adopted, they venemtion to the people, and the Monarch restored to the affections of his.suhjects. felt it to be their duty to resign. On that day, his Majesty was graciously pleased, Mr. HUME, under the circumstances, thought no greater blessing whew he felt himself left alone—I say most unexpectedly left alone—by his entire Go- vernment, to send Gtr Lord Lyndhurst, who had filled a high office in his service, and could happen to the country than an arrangement by which Lord Grey who stood high in his confidence, for the purpose of inquiring from my noble friend might return to office. He felt sure, if Lord Grey saw a prospect of whether in his opinion means existed, and what means, of forming an Administration being restored to the full confidence of the King, he had the country's on the principle of carrying into execution an extensive Reform o the representation good too much at heart to stand on any idle ceremony. He thought of the People. It is important, your Lordships, to consider the character of the person wlsmi the King thus called upon for counsel in the embarrassing situation in which he as the best thing they could do was to adjourn, in order to allow an op- w placed by his Ministers. It appears, that when his Majesty found that he could portunity for such an arrangement: not, consistently with his high duty to the state, follow the advice proffered him by his

Mr. LABOUCTIEUE spoke to the same effect— servants,—so little communication had he with any public men save his responsible ed- . visers,—that he of necessity sent for a noble lord whose judicial functions took him

in the opinions of his people, sous not indisposed to support a Government formed to aid his Majesty in resisting the

advice tendered to him by his late Ministers. Under this conviction I attended Iii Majesty, and my advice to him was, not that he should appoint me his Minister, but certain members of the other house of Parliament. This was my ambition. So far, I repeat, from seeking for office for myself. I merely named those persons whom i thought 'best qualified for Ins service ; adding, that for my own part, whether I was in office or out of office. ho and those persons might depend upon my most strenuous support. The object, I repeat, of this advice and tender of assistance was to enable his Majesty to form an Ainistration upon the principle of resisting the advice which he bad just rejected."

The Duke having vindicated his Majesty from the imputation of want of honesty or fairness, and declared that he and his friends had 'kept wholly aloof from intrigue in their opposition to the Ministerial pleasure, went on-

e E beg your Lordships to examine a little the nature of the advice which his Majesty had rejected, cud which I considered it my duty to assist him by every means in my power to effectually resist. I will not seek for further information of the precise form of that advice that, was furnished by Earl Grey, when stating that its not having been adopted led to his resignation, and which amounted to neither more nor less than this, —that in order to carry a measure through this House, to which a majority of its mem- bers is strongly opposed, his Majesty should forcibly overcome their opposition by a large creatiou of Peers. I beg the House to pause for a moment ou the real character of such a counsel, and its necessary results if adopted. Ministers found. in the course of last session. that a large majority of your Lordships was opposed to the principle of the Reform Bill. What should be the ordinary course of proceeding under such cir- cumstances? Why. either to abandon the measure altogether, or make such alterations in it as might render it palatable to the majority of its opponents. But was this the course pursued by the noble earl ? So far from it, he emphatically declared that he would not consent to the producing of a measure of less efficiency than that which your :Lordships had disapproved of; and in point of fact, the noble earl has brought in a bill stronger, and, I do not hesitate to say, worse than the obnoxious measure which you so emphatically rejected, and which he could and can only Lope to force through this house by an arbitrary and a must unconstitutional creation of Peers—how many, it is nut necessary for inn now to state, but suflicient to force the Bill through its stages here, and thereby destroy the independence, indeed the very legislative existence, of your Lordships. If any man will mnintain that this is a legal and constitutional line of proceeding, I can oily say that my notions of what is legal and what is constitutional are, and I trust always will be, very different ; and that if the advice were to be adopted,- it would place it iii the power of a Minister to carry any measure he pleased, and by what means he pleased, with impunity, and that from that moment the Constitution of this country and this House would be at an end. The independeuce of Parliament would be destroyed. inasmuch as any minister would be able to overawe, by the crea- tion of a body of Peers, large or small, according to circumstances. for the purpose of influencing its decisions in favour of some favourite measure. In such a case, I repeat, the object and power of this House would be at an end, its deliberative character totally destroyed, and, as a consequence. it would not possess the means of arriving at an honest decision upon any public question. Feeling this as I did and do, it was my duty to afford a ready and zealous aid to my Sovereign to enable him to resist a counsel fraught with such dangerous consequences to this House and to the Constitution. And

• allow me to observe, that in my opinion a threat to carry into execution such an unroll- . atitutional mode of adding to the numbers of supporters of a particular Minister in this house, provided it has the effect of inducing a number of your Lordships to either ab- stain altogether from attending their duties here, or offering a decided and uncompro- • raising opposition to a measure which they honestly believe to be mischievous in its tendency.—the threat is as bad in point of fact, as the execution. I say such a threat is tantamount to forcing the decisions of this House, when it is plain that a majority is decidedly indisposed to adopt the measure which the utterer of the threat may persuade

himself would be beneficial to the country. It is true that many well-disposed persons may be induced by it to adopt a middle course, under a persuasion that they thereby

.avert the greater evil of a creation of some fifty or a hundred Peers; or, perhaps, many may be induced by it to adopt the obnoxious proposition of the noble earl, were it only to save his Majesty himself from the painful consermencee of either rejecting or adopt-

ing the counsel of his responsible advisers. But, I ask, is this free and independent deliberation ? Is not an unbiassed decisiou, under mei influences, wholly imprac- ticable?"

The Duke proceeded to narrate the history of his negotiations with the King-

. "His Majesty insisted that whoever should undertake the management of affairs should do so on an understanding of carrying an 'extensive reform' (I quote his Ma- jesty's own words) ' in the representation of the people in Parliament.' I always have been and still am of opinion that no measure of Reform is necessary, and that the mea- sure before the House is calculated to injure, if not destroy, the monarchical instil ut ions of this country; but I stated on Monday week, when I addressed your Lordships on the subject, that though this was my conviction, as the principle of the Bill bad obtained the sanction of a numerical majority, I should endeavour, honestly and fairly, in Com- mittee, to make such amendments as would enable the Government to meet, awl, if possible, overcome the difficulties which the Bill must, in my mind, give rise to. My opinion, I repeat, is wholly unchanged as to the pernicious character of the noble earl's Bill. I do not believe that it is possible to make any amendments in it that would enable the Government to overcome all the difficulties to the country of which it will be the fruitful spring; and gladly, therefore, would I reject it altogether in its present shape. But that was not the question between me and my Sovereign. I was called upon by his Majesty not to act upon my own particular views of Reform, but to assist hum in resisting the adoption of an advice whiell would overthrow the House of Lords and the Monarchy. I was called upon to assist his Majesty in carrying an extensive measure of Parliamentary Reform through this House, without having recourse to the unconstitutional exercise of the prerogative suggested by his late advisers. It there- fore became a question, what parts of the Bill might be safely retained, and which this House might adopt, and which it might rationally be expected would, when sent down to the House of Commons, receive the sanction of that branch of the Legislature. The question I had then to determine was one of degree, or rather a choice of ills; and in this case, there can be no doubt, a selection might be made from its provisions which would not be so dangerous to the constitution of this House, as the measure as a whole; and, accordingly, the question was the amount and character of the parts which might be thus retained. It was under these circumstances, and upon this understanding, that I consented to give my assistance to his Majesty to form an Administration. I know there are many of opinion that I should have acted a more prudent part, and one more 'worthy of a man who looked at ulterior considerations, and who, mindful of his former opinions and pledges against Reform, was desirous to preserve a character of consis- tency in his public career, it would, I say, have been more prudent for me, were I, under such circumstances, only influenced by mere personal considerations, to have re- fused any compromise of my opinions, and withheld my support from any Government that undertook an extensive measure of Reform. I do not mean to detract from the merits of those who would have recommended such a line of proceeding ; but I put it to them, and to your Lordships in general, whether our positions are precisely similar? They were, and are, at liberty to act unbiassedly, and responsible only to themselves, and for themselves; I was called upon to rescue my Sovereign from the embarrassment

• in which he was placed by his own servants. 1 should consider it a serious misfortune to be induced, by any consideration, to adopt a different line of conduct from that pur- sued by noble lords around me, with whom I have been connected, for so many years. by the closest ties of friendship and political cooperation ; and I trust that this expla- nation of the facts of the ease will make our separation but temporary. Let them, I say, consider the difference of our situations, and ask themselves whether, if they were called upon by the King, as I was, they would or could have acted otherwise? I con- fess I should feel deep regret were I, when his Majesty did me the honour of command- ing my aid to enable him to resist a most pernicious counsel, were Ito turn round on his Majesty and say, ' I see the difficulties of your Majesty's situation, but I cannot afford you any assistance, because I have, in my place in Parliament, expressed strong opinions against a measure to which your Majesty is understood to Le friendly.' I de- clare that, if it were possible for me to address such language to my Sovereign, 'I should be ashamed to show my face in the streets."

The Duke went on to argue, that the passing of the Reform Bill by • a creation of Peers was directly opposed to the words of the King's'

Speech, where, in recommending Reform, Parliament was called on to adhere carefully to " the acknowledged principles of the Constitution,. by which the prerogative of the King, the authority of Parliament, and -.the rights and liberties of the People, are equally secured," He purH sued the argument against a creation at some length ; and concluded. thus- " It was to enable the Crown to resist such an unconstitutional exercise of its prem• gative, that I consented to assist in forming tin administration on the principles I have stated; and under the embarrassing circumstances in which his Majesty was pierced;l should feel myself unworthy of a seat in this house, if considemtions merely turning= personal consistency withheld my assistance. When, however, I found, from the tone and result of the discussion which took place in the other house or Parliament in con- sequence of the resignation of the noble earl and his colleagues, and when I found also that though many leading men of that house entertained a stiong opinion that Peers should not hi created, that no Government could hope to secure the confidence of the House of Commons. and time country at large, which did not undertake to carry a mea- sure of reform as extensive and efficient as that now on the table of this house, I felt it my duty. to throne his Majesty that it was not in my power to fulfil the important commission with which he honoured rac. His Majesty, iu consequeuce of this state- ment, felt himself bound to renew his communications with his former Ministers. This is my statement."

The Duke's speech was very much cheered by the Peers on his own side of the House.

Lord LYNnnuasT now rose to make his explanation— On the day on which the noble earl and his colleagues thought fit to tender their resignation to his Majesty, and aflenet had been accepted, his Majesty was graciously pleased to command his attendance. 'tile had not had any personal communication with his Majesty for a long period. and therefore did not expect the honour which had been couferred on him. On waiting on the King, his Majesty told him that he had sent for him ns his former Chancellor, to consult him under the embarrassing circumstances iu which he had been placed by the unprecedented conduct of his Ministers. His Ma- jesty was desirous that lie should inform himself of the nature of the feeling of the country at large, and of the state of parties with respect to the advice which lie had re- jected; and his gave him permission to communicate with those 'inseam whom be might consider most competent to advise under the circumstances oldie country, commaucling him on his departure to attend him next evening at Windsor. lie accepted, as he was in duty bound to do, the mission with which he was thus hononred, and he should feel that he was shrinking from a most important duty if lie acted otherwise. In consequence of the commission intrusted to him, he waited on the Duke of Welliegton. who, on being made acquainted with what had passed between him and his efejeety, with a gallantry and chivalrous devotion of spirit worthy of his illustrious repreme eel. told him promptly

that there was no sacrifice that he was not ready to make, uo olleeey that he was not ready to incur, no misrepresentation that he was not prepared to enrinarcl. in order to rescue his Sovereign from the embarrassing 'tut somewhat humiliating situation in which he was placed by those upon whom he had lavished fassumu• a iv' confidence. This took place on Wednesday, the day of the resignation. Ihm next cummunicated the nature of his commission to other influential public men, in all :theta six persons. The result of all this was, that his Majesty desired, through him, tic' noble duke to call on him the subsetetent Saturday. And here his mission ended. This was the head and front of his offending.

Lord Lyndhurst went on to comment with great bitterness on the calumnies to which his character had been subjected-

" For this," he said, "have I been traduced and calumniated, not merely in the high- ways by the ignorant, but in the other house of Parliament, by persons whom the noble duke has rightly described as of high station, and filling the situatien and psi:ion of gentlemen. For this have I been slandered throughout the country by the periodical press, which now reigns paramount over the Legislature and the country : and. in defi- ance, if not with connivance of the public authorities, flings its calumnies without respect fur age, sex, or station. I should be ashamed to belong to a Coven nment which permit- ted the article in the Thus journal of this day to pass unitroseeitel and unpunished; and if I were the Attorney-G mend, I should consider myselfguilty of misprision of trea- son if I neglected to prosecute suck en article as that, which I have Ito hesitation in pro- nouncing revolutionary, treasonable, and subversive of the monan.lmy of the state."fr They, however, might wound the feelings of those allied to him by the dearest lies, and so far they were a source of pain to himself; but. apart from the liseliugs of others, fro held them in the utmost scorn. Not so, however, could he overlook the charge wlech was reported to have been brought against him in another place by an licetau able le:relict (Sir Francis Burdett), the member for Westminster. Whether that (large be correctly stated or not, lie had no means of ascertaining. His only knowledge cf its authenticity was that furnished by its publicity in the daily papers. That honuereble baronet was reportedto have declared that he, in obeying the commands of his Sovereign in the man- ner in which lw had just stated, had been 'guilty of gross dereliction of Lis duty as a judge.' He denied the assertion. The honourable baronet ought to e new ;hat, as a judge, he was a member of the King's Privy Council, and that by has teell as a privy councillor, he vas bound to not only tender to his Majesty his best advice me a eettters of public interest when called upon, but to volunteer it when he s::AV ,1!1.ty cf the throne or the welfare of the country in peril. It was plain, then, that t lieueurable baronet was totally ignorant of the judicial functions when uttering the rash assertions imputed to lam. There was another attack also reported to have been dine:tee against him by a member of the House of Commons. It was made matter or ceneur • that, though a judge of the land, and as such the occupant of a bench which should ever be kept free from political or party contagion, he was the leader of a virulent faction in that House. He would not stay to obseeve upon the compliment that was pail to their Lordships' dignity and integrity by the 'insinuation, but would appeal to these who knew him, whether any charge could be more unfounded? The Met was, that such a station as that assigned to him was foreign front his habits and inclinations,--was con- trary to his temperament and very leisure. So ling from aspiring to a leadership, he had nut, since the accession of the noble earl to office, been a frequent attendant upon their discussions, and had not, in a single instance, taken a part in a political discussion.

He concluded— "Reform, my.Lurds, has triumphed; the barriers of the Constitution are broken down; the waters of destruction have burst the gates of the temple, and the tempest begins to howl. Who can say where its course shall stop? Who can stay its speed? For my own part, I earnestly hope that my predictions may not be fulfilled, a ittl that my country may not be ruine'sti by the measure which the noble earl and his colleagues have sauctioned."

Earl GREY said, he would not by one word add to the irritation that prevailed among the Peers on the Opposition benches. With respect to the line of conduct they might see lit to pursue, it was for themselves

to choose—.

" It is for them only to determine what sacrifices of former opinions—of reiterated declarations—of recent pledges—they are prepared to make, from a sense of duty. They. I repeat, are the sole judges on this head. It is not my wish or inclivation to impute to them improper motives ; it is not for me to lay down any standard or duty, or to im- pose any rule of political consistency, of political good faith. But I cannot help ex- pressiug may surprise, that on an occasion like the present, when the }louse and the public expected a temperate explanation of the important proceedings in which the noble duke and the noble and learned baron have been for some days engaged, they should have indulged in violent party invective against the Reform Bill and Minis- ters. Again have the trite commonplace assertions of the Bill being a revolutionary measure—of its tending to destroy the Constitution—been broached with all the via lence of party rancour and disappointment. Again an' our ears dinned with denuncia- tions of the advice which we felt it to be our duty to offer toleis Majesty ; and again are we told by the noble and learned baron, that that advice, if followed, would prove fatal to the independence of the House of Lords as well as to the monarchy. Before I enter into a more particular consideration of the charge implied by this assertion, permit ma to remind the noble baron and your Lordships, that there are dangers, not imagivary or hypothetical, but substantial and imminent, to this House and the Monarchy, to be ap- prehended from proceedings at all tending to risk a collision between the hereditary and representative branches of the Constitution. The circumstances that have occurred this night, and the course taken by noble lords on a former occasion, prove that the fact of this House getting into a conflict with the House of Commons and the general sense of the country on important subjects, would alone be sufficient to expose it to dangers more imminent and greater far than any to be apprehended from the course which his Majesty's Ministers may think it their duty to pursue." He proceeded to justify his conduct in respect to Reform, which be had entered on office for no other purpose than to support. He repeated whatbe had frequently stated on former occasions, that Reform, to be satisfactory, must be extensive. The necessity of its being extensive, he thought to be sufficiently proved by the admission even of its most • There are two or three articles on the subject of the 'Ministerial arrangements in the limes of Thursday ; we do not know to which Lord Lyndhurst referred. -StreMMUs'OppenentS,-thartM other than an extensive measure Ought 10

• be attempted. He came at length to the motion of Lord Lyndhurst on Monday sennight-

" When the Bill came into Committee, it was hoped that your Lordships would con- sent to pass it without alteration in principle. and without any changes in detail which would make it impossible for me and my colleagues to consent to proceed with the mea- sure. But on the very first clause a motion was made which some noble lords affect to • consider as of trivial importance, but which, in my opinion, proved such a disposition in its opponents. and which appeared to me so prejudicial to the Bill, that it was im- possible for me to go further deluding the patine with a vain expectation of success, and opening up fresh grouud for irritation in every step of the Committee. It was then to be considered by Ministers what course they must adopt, and but two alternatives pre- sented themselves,—either at once to abandon the Bill. or to recommend the Sovereign to enable the Government to take such steps as would put them in a situation to carry it. We adopted the latter course, and did oiler to his Majesty that advice which we deemed the exigency of the case to require,—advice which the noble duke has this night arraigned so strongly. The noble duke not only censures the advice, but com- plains that the making or Peers was used and acted on by us as a threat. M y Lords, I um not aware that I um liable to that imputation, nor am I aware that, ellen pressed and goaded for a declaration on the subject, I ever uttered a single syllable relative to it except once, and that was to the effect that I felt as much opposed to such a measure as any man, except in a case of necessity which might justify the exercise of the royal prerogative with a view to prevent a collision between this and the other House of Par- liament. In my mind, by the vote alluded to, such a case had arisen: the situa: ion iu which Ministers were placed was this,--we must either abandon the Bill at once, or give advice to the Crown in order to prevent a collision. in which I openly declare if this House shall at any time be unwise enough to commit itself; the issue will hardly be sa- tisfactory to your Lordships. The noble duke expresseshis surprise that the recommen- dation of his Majesty in his speech from the throne, has not been attended to in this Bill. The recommendation is, that the contemplated reform 'shall adhere to the ac- knowledged principles attic Constitution, by which the prerogatives of the Crown, and the authority of both Houses of Parliament, and the rights and liberties of the people, are equally secured. Who could have thought,' says the noble due°, • that a measure of this kind was contemplated, judging from the tenor of the speech from the Throne ?' The passage of' the King's Speech quoted was written by Ministers, and related to this identical measure of Betbrm, which I am prepared to contend does possess the qualities described in the Speech,—which, as I shall at any time show, goes to remove the abuses and blemishes that disfigure the Constitution. to give it additional vigour in the restored confidence of the people, and thus reanimate and strengthen the great body of our institutions. The measure recommended by Ministers to the Crown on the late divi- sion in your Lordships' Committee, stood on the ground of enabling us to curry in this Mouse a bill, the rejection orwhich by your Lordships puts us in direct opposition to the other House of Parliament and the country. On these grounds, the advice we tendered to our Sovereign was absolutely required by the circumstances of the case (' Hear ! ; under these circumstances it was constitutional, and I can refer the noble and learned lord to books on the Constitution. in which he will find that this prerogative of creating peers was given to the Crown in order to counteract the serious evils that might arise from this House placing itself in opposition to the remaining estates of the realm. My Lords, but for the existence of this prerogative, your proceedings would be without con- trol, while upon all other branches of the Legislature salutary checks are imposed. The Commons possess a check upon the misconduct of the Crown, in its power of stop- ping the Supplies : a check upon factious conduct in the Commons was placed in the King's power to dissolve the House. Are the Lords alone to be exempt from control ? My Lords, should this House combine, in some purpose adverse to the Crown and House of Commons, and should it be able to hold out in its determination, with no power existing to check its proceedings, then is this no longer a government of King, Lords, and Commons, but an oligarchy ruling the country."

He noticed the charge of the Duke of Wellington, that Ministers had abandoned the King-

" How did our resignation differ from any other resignation of Ministers ? A Minis- ter tenders advice to his Sovereign as to the course to be taken on an important sub- ject of public interest ; the Crown rejects the advice ; Ministers present their resigna- tions—ror no other course lies before them, if they be honest and independent men."

After expressing his strongest sense of the kindness and condescen- sion with which his Majesty had ever treated him and his colleagues, Lord Grey concluded-

" I do not know, that, under the peculiar eircumstance,of the case, it is necessary for me to say more than I have said betbre. I have received, as I formerly stated, a com- munication from his Majesty since the resignation of the commission held by the noble duke for forming a new Administration ; -but I am not prepared at this moment to state the result or that communication. All I can statc.—and I owe it to myself, to the country, and to your Lordships, todeclare it ; because there ought to be no concealment by an individual situated as I am, as to his motives of conduct and views of action, he accepting or refusing office,—all I can state is, that my continuance in office must de- pend on my conviction of my ability to carry into Mt effect the Bill on your. Lordships' table, unimpaired in principle and in all its essential details."

The cheering that followed Lord Grey's speech lasted for a consi- derable time after he had sat down.

Earl MANSFIELD rose to deny an assertion in the Times as to the part he had acted in the recent negotiations. He denied that there was any truth in his having told the King that he had had "enough of the Duke of Wellington." On the contrary, he highly praised the Duke's conduct, in so readily sacrificing his sentiments at the call of the King, although he admitted that he was not prepared to follow him in the change. After defending the conduct of -Lord Lyndhurst and his supporters in their vote on Monday sennight, he went on to say, that Ministers were not exposed, even in the event of a less extensive Bill being rejected by the House of Commons, to the alternative they had put; for they might, in that case, dissolve the House of Commons, and try whether the People would not elect other members that would be satisfied with it. There is a difficulty, it seems, in the way of creating Peers, which Ministers had not anticipated— Supposing the noble earl's advice had been adopted, and that for the purpose of drowning the independent voice of their Lordships, a large creation of Peers was de- termined upon, where, he would ask, were those new Peers to be found ? He was ready to admit that there were many individuals in this country of rank, and property, and talent, that fully entitled them to enter the walls of that House ; but where could the noble earl find the requisite number who would be ready to prostitute themselves so completely to party purposes, as to enter the House on such terms as these? He recollected when the noble and illustrious duke near him returned from Spain. and pro- duced his patents at once for all the honours in the power of the Crown to bestow, so that the officer of the House was fatigued with reading them. Who was there that saw this spectacle that did not feel his heart beat high at the thought that there was a man in the country that well deserved to be so rewarded, and who did not feel how happy were that country and that Sovereign which had the power so to reward such eminent services? But what must be the feelings of persons coming here and presenting the patents given them under such advice as the Ministers had tendered? and what must he the feelings and reflections of those who might witness such a spectacle ? They would not have to show any recorded services to justify their advancement, and could only point to the merus luaus of the Creivn; and theu. with what feelings could they attest Wore their Maker that they would faithfully perform their duty as Peers of Parlia- ment? Only consider of seeing them inserting their names in the roll of that House, contaminated, as it would be, by such an association, and consigning themselves to in- famy, which was generally much more permanent and lasting than fame. From the disgrace of such an association it was the object of the noble duke to extricate this House, and the attempt was a noble one, even though it might fail.

After some more very warm compliments to the conduct of the Duke of Wellington, Lord Mansfield concluded by observing— He did not know how the present crisis was to terminate, bat he hoped it would not end in the creation of Peers. He looked on such a creation, as merely a pretext in order to mortify such of their Lordships as were unwilling to support the Ministerial measure to its fullest extent.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA said of conduct pursued by"MitrIsters' had a-direCt-tendenty to degrade, ItSeacer, and destroy that House. The advice which they tendered to his Majesty was the most insulting and most daring that ever had been offered by a subject to his Sovesekm„ What other consequence could follow than that, if that advice bad been acted upon. there would be an end of that House as an independent branch of the Legislature ? If the noble earl had felt what due to the House, he would never have offered-suck advice to his Majesty.

He expressed his strong admiration of the conduct of the Duke of Wellington— There was no sacrifice consistent with a due respect to his own chewed 'r and honour that he himself would not have made, if he had been called upon by his Majesty estate noble duke had been.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY expressed a wish to be informed whether he was to address Lord Grey as Minister, or not; and whether the advice he had given the King was to be understood as accepted?

Earl GREY repeated his former statement— The communication which he had received from his Majesty. had not yet he toany- conclusive result. More than that he did not feel himself called upon to say. In fact. he had on Tuesday stated all that he could uow state. A charge had that evening beet made against him by a noble lord, as if he had been guilty, as a Minister, of most im- proper conduct in respectfully tendering his resignation to his Sovereign. He was not aware, however. that in so doing he had done more than many other Ministers beers him. But it was asserted that he had taken this step when he was aware that no other Administration could be formed. What reason, however, was there for supposing that no other Administration could be formed ; their Lordship haying been told over and over again by noble lords opposite, that they were the most tit persons to form a ;Mi- nistry ? If his Majesty were left alone on this occasion, it was in consequence of Lord Grey's advice, or that of his friends. This, however. he would distinctly state to the noble marquis, that unless he could be assured of the means of carrying the Referrer_ Bill in a perfectly efficient state. he would not remain in office.

The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to say one word, simply in addition t* What had fallen from Earl Grey, and which he was sure his noble% friend would have said if he had borne it in mind- " Not °lily was it a coedit on that the Bill should be carried in its efficient stateebut also that it should be carried 11 jell every reasonable despatch that was cousistent with a dire consideration of its provisions." After a few words from the Earl of HADDINGTON, who praised the Duke of Wellington, and spoke of the necessity of regulating the ap- plication of principles by a regard to circumstances, The Earl of CARNARVON rose. He spoke with great bitterness against the Ministers and their plans. They pressed on the King the contemplated creation of Peers, not because they feared a collision now, but because they anticipated in their fretful suspicions a collision at some future period. They hurried on in the course which they Bad chosen, because they were aware, if the measure which the Opposition called for passed, no collision would be possible. They could not- have. induced a Reformed House of Commons to come to such a collision. He asked why they did riot wait until the report of the Committee. before they advised the Crown to use its prerogative as they had done— fie begged to ask the noble earl, who once was a Whig. whether such a coolSda- liberate insult had ever • been offered by a British Minister to either House of I.egrish- tore, since the time when Cromwell ordered " that bauble" to be taken from the tibia or the House of Commons. If the demand of the noble earl had been by violence'er- toned from the Sovereign, more than a bauble soul! have been removed from their Lordships' table. From that time their functions as an independent part of the British Constitution would have ceased; and they would have been delivered over to a poiyer armed with the whip of the slave-driver. The noble earl, iu telling.their Lordships that they might have altered the Bill in trivial points, although not in its main feature. had. gone beyond the letter of licence of the Times newspaper, which had prohibited them. from maleing the slightest alteration whatever in the measure. If the noble earl had succeeded in depriving the House of Lords of their ancient prerogatives, it was evident that lie could not have dared to stop there. Having quitted the path of right for that of error, be must havei proceeded to crime. Time was no halting. The end must have been revolution. The noble earl must in his career have resembled Robespierre.

The Earl of MuLonAvn said, that much as he had heard the conduct of the Duke of Wellington applauded, he should on another occasion take the opportunity of remarking upon it in a different way— If the noble duke were present, and if he attempted to defend his new opinions; he (Lord Mulgeave) would present to him his own l'rotest ; and, iu reply to the noble duke's alignments, he would read that Protest paraeraph by paragraph, and see how the noble duke could escape from it. Had those noble lards who Mid been called upon to form an Administration plainly said to his Majesty—" We see that a measure of Iteforra must be carried—we will therefore withdraw our opposition to it." would there, in sack case, have henany thing like inconsistency on their parts in so doing? He was glad to find, from what had fallen from the noble lords on the opposite benches, that there Was not likely to be on their parts a pertinacious opposition to the measure of Reform ; ind if he recollected rightly the obsei rations which had been made, it would appear the,ree salt of all that had passed was, that in a few days a measure would probably be passed,. either by Reformers or Anti-Reformers, which would tend to tranquillize the country_ The Marquis of SALISBURY rose with great beat to defend the Duke, who bad just left the House— The statement that noble duke had made reflected as much honour on him as it dill disgrace on those pretended friends of the Monarchy who dared to insult their Sove- reign, by offering him advice which he did not scruple to pronounce highly treasonable. and one which, in other and better times, would have been instantly followed by theim- peachment of those who tendered it. The time might yet come when they would'be called to the bar of the house to answer for that advice; but at all events he had the consolation of knowing that history would mark them as the destroyers of their country,.

After some more compliments to the Duke from Lord DELAWARE, and some further deprecation of the creating of Peers from Lord Ba- DEN, the order of the day for the further consideration of the Bill NRIME

discharged, and the House adjourned.

In the House of Commons, on Thursday, in answer to a question

put by Mr. PAGET, Lord ALTHORP said- " On Tuesday I stated to the House that my noble friend, Earl Grey, had received a communication from his Majesty, and it was on that ground I suggested that it would be a convenient course for the House to adjourn over to this day. Nos-, Sir, am not prepared at this moment to say that any arrangements consequent upon that communication have been completed ; but I hope that I may go so far as to state, that there is a probability that a satisfactory arrangement will take place. In the mean time. I trust that the House and the country will place this much confidence iu the late Administration—not to suppose that we would return to office if we should not per- fectly know that we would be able to carry the Reform Bill through without any alte- ration in its essential and main principles."

Lord EBRINGTON expressed his gratification at the announcement, and at the same time impressed most strongly on Lord Althorp the

necessity of bringing the arrangements to a speedy conclusion.

Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY took the same view. He rejoiced at the announcement that there was a strong probability of Lord Grey re- turning to office; but be at the same time much regretted that that re- turn had not yet taken place. Alluding to a petition from Wel- verharnpton, which he had received for presentation, Sir John said— In consequence of the situation of public affitirs, a vast number of the petitioners and others of that town and district were thrown out of employment ; curd if measures were not taken to put an end to the stagnation of trade and the want of confidence through- out the country, the people would be driven to acts which. without the excitement or the most galling distress, they would not be capable of committing. Mr. .WARBURTON having stated, that he had several petitions from places,in the county of Dorset, the presentation of which he should postpone, Lord ASHLEY expressed, surprise that he had not heard of the meetings-at which they- were.agreed to.

Mr. PORTMAN said, he -was sorry to find that Lord Ashley knew so little of the county he represented. This led to an explanation of Mr.. Portman abandonment. of his intention to continue in Parliament as member for Dorset. Mr. Portman said, the. only pledge he had ever given on the subject was ,in a private letter to Lord Ashley,—which letter; however, Lord Ashley had published ; and he had abstained from following up that pledge merely to oblige the•freeholders,,who were averse to another contest. . .• . .•

Mr. HUME expressed his regret that the Ministerial arrangements

were not even yet • complete—. • • • - He would not withdraw his notice for calling over the House ; as every man ought to bit at his post, to be prepared, if it must come, for disappointment.

Mr. Joins: Wool) and Mr. HEvwoon concurred in stating, that any mutilation of the Bill would be attended with the most serious con- sequences.

Colonel LINDSAY (member for Fifcshire) said the vote in the Lords was one of insignificant detail only. He declaimed with great vehe- mence against the projected creation of Peers— The noble earl at the head of the Ministry had already made thirty.one Peers ; and yet, while he oljeeted to nominee members of the House of Commons, he wished to make sixty or seventy base, vassal nominees, to w horn he was to ilsue his orer, that the Reform Bill should be carried. Was there justice, probity, or principle in such a

proceeding? .

Lord ALTHORP said, he understood that, by common consent, this sort of discussion was to be avoided-

" I must beg to state to the honourable gentleman, if he does not see what every other member must see, and whatthe whole country does see. that the question in the Rouse of Lords was not, as he assumes, a mere question of detail. but a question which materially affected the principle of the Bill. After the late decision, Ministers could not attempt. consistently with their own pledged honour, to carry the Bill through the Committee of the other House. It is, therefore, vain to say that it Was only atriffing question of detail. How was it argued? Was it argued as a trilling question of detail? Certainly not. We always put the principle of the Bill upon 'this—that nomination boroughs were an evil that must be got rid of; and yet the Clauses for their abolition were to be postponed to the Enfranchising Clauses. No person Who knew the effect of the division, could doubt for a moment that it was not possible flu Ministers, with ho- Zor, to carry the Bill farther. The whole country has viewed the matter in this 'light."

Mr. BARING deprecated further discussion— "Whatever may be the anxieties, and there are none greater than my own, honour- able members must be sensible that in the course of the arrangements to which the noble lord has referred, nothing can tend more to embarrass, and do injury, than the prolongation of this discussion. If it be continued, of course it will be impossible for me and other members to remain silent, but I entreat the House to let the subject drop here. I only beg to be allowed to make a single observation, not likely to provoke con- troversy, but to remove an impression which has pervaded the country, and in some degree this House. I am not authorized to speak for any body, but I think it just to say, on the part of his Majesty—if on his Majesty's part I may be permitted to say it. and it is due to him that the country should know—that at no one period did I over un- derstand, as, indeed, I said on a. former occasion, that it was the King's intention, in the slightest degree, to vary from the pledge he had given to the country, or to form rut Administration which would not carry the efficient principles of Reform. I state dis- tinctly that to be the fact."

Last night, in the Lords, the Archbishop of Your entered into an explanation of the conduct he had pursued and meant to pursue in regard to the Bill. He was most friendly to its principles, and to its essential details ; but he thought enfranchisement should lead and dis- franchisement follow. He admitted, however, that his residence in Yorkshire, where there were many unrepresented towns and few close boroughs, might have biassed his judgment on this point. He ex- preSsed his confidence in Earl Grey, as the only man who could carry the 'Bill, and earnestly hoped that the towns in Schedules C and 1) would soon receive the boon which they so earnestly courted arid so justly deserved. The Archbishop noticed an attack that had been threatened against his house and property at Bishopsthorpe, which could only have originated in his sentiments being mistaken by the people. He said he intended to offer. this statement the previous evening, had it not been for the unbecoming violence with which the debate had been carried on,—a violence to which, in forty years' ex- perience, he had seen no parallel, and hoped to God he never would again.

The Duke of RUTLAND praised the King for refusing to make Peers ; he praised the Duke of Wellington for his readiness to take -upon him the fatigues of office ; he praised the motives of Lord Grey, as pure and patriotic ; but he very much blamed the Bill. He allowed the intelligence and moral worth of Englishmen, but doubted if the less

wealthy and less educated were capable of temperate discussion and sound conclusion.. The Duke made a long quotation from Sallust, about the power of demagogues ; and cited the case of Metellus, as the only parallel in history to the predicament in which Ministers had placed the country. Be concluded by expressing a hope, that the Re- form Bill would, after all, prove a " new source of wealth, prosperity, and happiness."

Earl IlAnEwoon expressed a wish to learn from Earl Grey, whether the negotiations, which were in progress the previous day, had yet reached their termination ?

Earl GREY said, the communications which were the result of the

Duke of Wellington's having given up his commission to form a new Cabinet; had ended in this— In consequence of his Majesty's gracious desire to that effect, and inconsequence of his perceiving those grounds of confident expectation of ability to enable him to redeem his pledge of yesterday, not to continue in office unless possessing an authority which might afford security for passing the Reform Bill unimpaired in principle and in all its essential details.—in consequence of now finding himselfable to state that he bad a confident arpeetat;6a of Wag able to pass the measure,, and having received his Majesty's gracions commands expressed to that effect, be had now to ainuoutIce that Ministers verb to continue in office. .

Ileconcurred with the Archbishop of York in regretting the irrita-

tion'athe previous evening: he lamented the factious shape which the question had assumed— Re might with icalidence throw it upon their Lordships to say. whether he had done any thing to provoke such a spirit—nay. whether last night, when exposed to a series of pmsonal - attacks, -not Tualatin that House, and by no means characterized by the proper feeling necessary to be maintained betwixt' noblemen—whether all he said was not perfectly exempt from personality or violence.

He hoped their Lordships would see the necessity of a speedy set.. dement of that measure which could alone restore peace to the country. He concluded by moving,. that- the House on Monday should resolve-

itself into a Committee on the Reform Bill. •

The Earl of HAREWOOD said, the position of the House was such, that the Bill could only pass by a creation of Peers, or by Peers in- dividually withdrawing their opposition to it. He lamented the alter- native, as destructive of the independence of the House and of the Crown, and of the liberty of the subject. He, however, had, come to the resolution to adopt the lesser of the two evils—to withdraw further opposition to the Bill, as the only way in which a creation of Peers could be avoided. Those who had brought the House to this pass must answer for their conduct when the country regained its senses ; " for while the present phrensy continued, neither reason nor sense would have way."

The Earl of WINCHILSEA said, he would not follow the Earl. of Harewood's example : on the ckitrary, he would continue to offer every opposition to the Bill. The independence of the Peerage would be as effectually destroyed by a secession as a creation. Lord Winchilsea called on Earl Grey to cast his eye, now he had leisure, over the pages of the leading periodicals for the last three or four days, and observe the malignant, false, and unfounded attacks—the scandalous and trea- sonable accusations—levelled at the King and Queen, and render the authors amenable to law. If he did not, he made himself responsible for the consequences.

Lord BROUGHAM observed, that if any such prosecution were re- sorted to, their Lordships ought to be careful of making themselves par- ties to it, because, as a court of last resort, they might conic to sit in judgment on those very supposed libels which they had previously de- nounced.

Lord WEccniLsEA ventured an opinion that the cases could by no possibility come before the House. But the CHANCELLOR put him right : a question might arise on the record, and by writ of error the question would then in reality be decided by their Lordships.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE expressed great surprise at Earl Grey's declaration ; he was not at all prepared for it. He denied the right of the King to make Peers, and indicated his intention of making a mo- tion on the subject, if he were supported, as soon as the Administration was fully formed.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE thought, before he or any Peer could determine on the line of conduct he was to pursue, he must know how the case stood. Were they to understand that Peers were to be created? or were their deliberations to be carried on under the threat of a creation? Did the prospect of the Bill's being carried unmutilated rest on the assumption that Peers were to absent themselves during the discus- sions ?

Earl RADNOR said, the interrogatory system had been carried already too far ; he saw no ground why Lord Wharncliffe should ask for such explanations. A Privy Councillor, according to his view of the matter, was not free to enter into explanations of what passed betwaen him and the Sovereign, much less was a Cabinet Councillor. Lord Wharncliffe wished to know on what footing he stood : he stood on the footing of a Peer of Parliament, and might exercise his judgment as he saw best. The compulsion of a creation of Peers was one which more or less the House had laboured under for the last twenty years.

The Earl of CARNARVON said the Peers created on the present occa- sion would be the Minister's nominees.

Earl RADNOR asked, if the father of Lord Carnarvon was a nominee ? The objection to the number to be created was untenable. If two Peers were created to overcome a majority of one, the principle was the same as if twenty were created to overcome a majority of nineteen.

The substantial objections of noble lords opposite to the exercise of the royal prero- gative in this respect was, that they were an exclusive order in the state—it was not for the sake of the country. They did not object for the sake of the country or their own independence, which they might, even in a small minority, preserve ; but because they wished to tie a more exclusive race even than they now were.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE wished to know, if he must accept Lord Rad- nor's answer as that of the Minister ?

Earl GREY—" I do not feel myself called on to answer the questions which have been put to me by the noble baron. I have already stated to your Lordships, that I continue to hold office under the confident ex- pectation that the Bill will be successfully carried in its future stages through this House. I do not conceive that the noble lord has any right to call on me for any further explanation ; and I will add, that el wish to be bound only by what I state myself."

Lord WHARNCLIFFE replied at great length to Lord Radnor. He con- tended that the motion of Lord Lyndhurst was not meant to affect the Bill; that Lord Grey had no right to assume that it did, until he saw some attempt made to cut down the disfranchising clauses. He con- cluded as he set out, by declaring that he could give no pledge until he saw what Ministers meant to do.

The Earl of CARNARVON spoke of the advantage of proceeding with calmness and deliberation. All he desired to know was, whether they would be allowed to offer such amendments as might be thought advi- sable with as little delay as possible; or if Lord Grey meant to create Peers at once to prevent the calm consideration of the Bill.

Earl GREY congratulated Lord Carnarvon on the mild, moderate, and conciliatory temper he had displayed in his speech. The carrying on of their deliberations, in Committee, would depend more on the spirit Lord Carnarvon carried into it, than on Earl Grey. He declined answering Lord Carnarvon's question.

The Earl of CARNARVON exemplified the spirit in which he meant, to discuss the Bill, by doubting if the Peers, which he assumed EarH. Grey intended to create, would be persons who merited the name of gentlemen.

The Bishop of BRISTOL expressed a hope that the Peers would not withdraw from the Committee, but attend, and, if passible, ive the Bill a shape that would render it more serviceable and palatable to the people.

In the House of Commons last night, in answer to a question from Mr. HUME, Lord ALTIIORP said— " " It was my intention to have taken the earliest opportunity of stating to the House what I shall now state in answer-to the question of my honottiMile frlend,--naMely. that his Majesty's Ministers have such a security for the passing of the Reform Bill as they consider will be amply sufficient I aild therefore, Sir, we shall continue to hold those offices which we are now in possesskat of."

Sir ROBERT PEEL then entered on an explanation somewhat similar to that of the Duke of Wellington. On Wednesday sennight, be was called on by Lord Lyndhurst to know if he were willing to enter into his Majesty's service. Lord Lyndhurst explained the embarrassed state of the King, from the resignation of Ministers consequent on his refusal to create Peers ; that he had communicated with the Duke of Wellington, who would not take office himself, but would, if necessary, support Sir Robert if he would accept of the Premiership. The clear understanding was, that if be did so, he must support an extensive plan of Reform. His reply to Lord Lyndhurst, given on the impulse of the moment, was, that it was utterly impossible for him to take office on such a condition. He had been decidedly opposed to the present and every extensive plan of Reform, and he could not come into the Mi- nistry when an extensive plan was to be carried.

lie had been the inveterate enemy of all extensive Reform; he objected to the prin- ciple of the Bill, some of the provisions of which he Ind declared to be fraught with injustice; and he bad stated that to the principles 'and details of the Bill he would to the last offer his decided resistance. lle had often staled these his principles; and to those with whom he acted, he had made an early declaral bin of his opinion, that he must take such a part upon the Reform Bill as would preclude him.from the possibility of taking office. Hain clearly done this, he would then ask every member of the Howse. whether, out of its 608 members. he ought to be the man to stand in Lord Althorp'. ttl uses and advocate its provisions? if it were necessery that there should be a mediator natwoon the hostile parties, was he the proper person to hold that situation, who had hem himself one of the contending parties ? Was it likely, that if hnportaut modifica- tions were to be introduced into the Bill, that be could persuade that majority to which In. had been opposed to accede to these modifications ?

Sir Robert said, he imputed no blame to others, for their readiness aet in a different way from that in which lie had acted. Their rea- son was, that if they refused to take office at the command of the King., 'their character in their own estimation must suffer: his reason was, that if he did take office in the face of all his former sentiments, his diameter in his own estimation must suffer. In the case of the Catholic Bill, he was in office; which made a most important distinction. Sir Robert ludignantly denied that he had coquetted with the offer of his Majesty— lie looked at the events that were passing with interest far deeper than any private or personal concern could excite. His sole endeavour hail been—that which he was sure would be the endeavour of every Englishman—to give advice. not with a view to his own private interests, but with a desire to promote the great and lasting nelare of the nation.

After a few complimentary words from Lord ALTHORP, Mr. BARING made a long speech in vidication of the conduct of the Duke of Wellington.

Sir RICHARD VYVYAN spoke very strongly on the subject of a crea- tion of Peers ;, he looked on it as an act of treason.

Mr. J. E. Goanox attacked Mr. Hume, for the language which he had used at some of the public meetings, in reference to the marching

of the military on London, and in reference to the Queen. He deno- minated the language of Mr. Hume as that of an incendiary.

Mr. HUME said, the language used by Mr. Gordon was stronger than any he had used. The term " incendiary" he threw back on Mr. Gordon and his supporters.

Some more conversation ensued; the course of which, Lord STOR- MONT gave notice of a motion for onday, respecting the libellous at- tacks on the King and Queen.

Lord ALTHORP mentioned, as the cause why. no answer to the Ad- dress of the House'had been given, that his Majesty had no responsible advisers. That cause was of course now removed.

The answer, we suppose, will be brought down on Monday.

2. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. On Thursday, Lord MILTON gave notice of his intention to postpone his motion upon the subject of the Corn-Laws till Thursday the 30th of the present month; and Mr. HUNT gave notice that upon Wednesday the 22d instant, he should more that the punishment of flogging in the Army be sus- pended for the. period of one year.

3. PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. In the House of Commons on Thurs- day, Sir THOMAS DENMAN made the important communication, that it

was the intention of Ministers, if they returned to power, to introduce a bill for the abolition of the punishment of death in all cases of forgery. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN took the opportunity of saying, that all parties were not agreed on the propriety of such an abolition.'

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Mrbatr intV protraingl ill VarTiannitt.