23 MAY 1840, Page 2

Debatts anb likorcetiings in parliament.


The House of Commons was occupied the first three nights of the week with a debate on Lord Stanley's bill "to amend the laws relating to the Registration of Voters in Ireland." Previously to the commencement of the debate on Monday, an immense number of petitions were presented against the bill, and many in favour -of it. Lord SAsnox and Mr. CRESS WELL brought up one front Liver- pool in support of the measure, which had been agreed to at a public meeting, and had received 23,135 signatures, to 20,000 of which the residences and profession of' the parties signing were attached. The aggregate number of the signatures to the petitions presented by Mr. O'CONNELL against the bill exceeded 60,000.

Lord STANLEY having moved that the House should go into Com- mittee on the bill, Sir WiLitAm SOMERVILLE moved an amendment, that the House go into Committee "this day six months." He spoke at length in support of his amendment ; arguing that the practical effect of the bill would be the disfranchisement of the poorer class of voters ; and that its real object was to deprive Ireland of Liberal Representatives in Parliament ; for that if the prevention of fraud and perjury were Lord Stanley's aim, he, an English Member, might have found employment nearer home, and have applied himself to the corruption and petjury practised at Ludlow and Cambridge. Mr. JAMES GRATTAN seconded the amendment ; and stated as one of his principal objections to the bill, that it would be particularly iu. jurious to Roman Catholics, of whom the poorer class of voters chiefly consisted.

Mr. LEFTIOY contended for the necessity of some measure for amend- ing the existing law. Although it had been proved before Election Committees that a large number of fictitious votes were upon the Irish registries, and between 1,400 and 1,500 such votes had been actually disallowed, yet they still remained on the registries, as Committees had no power to remove them.

Lord CLE3IENTS thought that it was the duty of Parliament to give protection to the poor voters—to uphold them against their landlords, not to drive them minimally before the Assistant Ilarristers by vexatious objections. 'Members of Parliament would find it monstrous unplea- sant to be called up every session to the table to swear to their own qualifications. No doubt, Lord Stanley's inantions were good, but Lord Clements wished he would " pave any other place" than Ireland with them.

Sir ROBERT BsTEsox spoke in support of the bill.

Mr. LTNCII delivered an elaborate speech on the otiliileorse side, o Ld. idte. ge could not defend the present state of the law, but was o Stanley's mode of amending it— The persons to decide all questions by this bill were the Assistant Barristers; and the Assistant Barristers differed from each other ; they WtTe tint bOtilld by the decision of the Judges, out even some of the Judges ti hi not Gel them- selves bound by the decision of a majority of the Judges. All the anuoyances arising from this state of things occurred at present but once in eight years; but now it Ives proposed that it should occur twice in every year. Tliev were thus to have an election-agitation, which they all knew was an agitation of the most exciting kind; and theywere to have this constantly occurring. Ile asked the landlords of Ireland if they believed their interests would he ad- vanced, their properties improved, or the security of their estates increased, if this bill paased into a law ? Ile thought they never could have a proper sys. tern of registration until it was compulsory. They ought to define the fran- chise before they determined on the registration. The redeeming qualities of the bills of Sir .1liclittel O'Loughlin and the Chief Baron were, that they define the franchise. The second objection that he Ina to this bill was, that it placed the claimant of the franchise in the position of one who was seeking a ffirour, instead of his being one %silo was only making up a title in himself the exer- cise of a duty to the public. The difficulties' placed by this bill in the way of a claimant to the franchise were so great that few men would venture to go through the ordeal imposed by it a second time All that 11116 ic 1;I'Vli by the Eliglish Itefi dm Bill was a notice that would give such a description of the claimant as that his name could be identified : but here there were t %May CIIROMS to one against the claimant ; and by the 25th clause, any one of them being defective would be fatal to the claimant. 'With respect to the notice, why, he asked, should it not be optional ? Why not make it sufficient to serve it on the barony constable? [Lord STANLEY interrupted Mr. Lynch, to state that he intended to propose in Committee that serviee on the Barony Constable should be sufficient. This statement provoked cries of " Oh oh !" from the Mi- nisterial benches ; in the midst of which Mr. LvNen proceeded to point out the other vexatious requirements of the bill.] After a man had given notice, he must go before the Assistant Barrister. Ile must then produce his lease. The lease might not he properiy stamped.

Ile must next prove i

rove the existence of the lives n the lease ; these were ge- nerally the names of persons of some great family ivho might be obroad. Every one might know they were alive, and vet every one acquainted with the law knew how difficult was the proof And yet all these impediments were thrown in the way of a man claiming nothing for himself but a duty that was confirmed I),)' the constitution. The num might overcome all these difficulties, and the Registering Barrister might put down his name on the list of voters; but was the man yet sure of the fourchise ? No such thing. Ile had afterwards to go to the assize-town—a distance, perhaps, of fifty or sixty miles ; then he must em- ploy an attorney to defend his franchise. How was the poor ten-pound voter to be expected togo to all this expense ? The .Tudge might differ from the Assist- ant Barrister, and then all this expense was thrown away ; and besides this, the unfortunate man might be mulcted in costs Was there ever such a Iwo:wiling heard of ? There was this greater injustice in regard to Ireland, as compared with Scotland—that in the latter country, when the value was once settled it remained so for the whole term of the lease. With respect to the 'imposed ap- peal to the Judges, he thought it extremely impolitic to put the Judges of the land in any situation in which they could be mixed up with polities. By so doing they would be running the risk of endangering the character of those important functionaries with the country. He admitted that there had been fraudulent votes on the register once, but they were placed there in 1832, and the Assistant Barristers had done their duty in removing them, He main- tained, therefore, that there was no pressing occasion for such a measure as the prefient ; and he was strongly opposed to it, because he believed it would anni- hilate the elective franchise of Ireland, and render her Representatives in Par- liament the nominees of the owners of property.

Mr. Ifarros; remarked, that in point of fact, the franchise had been defined, and there ought to be no further doubt on the subject— A difference of opinion had arisen as to the construction of the statutes 10th George IV. and 2d and 3d William IV. upon this point. A case, however, bad occurred at the Spring Assizes of 1837, in which this point was brought to issue, and which was afterwards referred for the opinion of the twelve Judges in Ireland ; when it was decided by ten of the Judges against two, that a man to ix, entitled to the franchise should have such an Interest as a good and solvent tenant could afford to give 10/. a year for. On a subsequent occasion, Chief Justice Bushe referred to the Chief Justice of the Court of Kings Bench in England to know whether the Judges, who happened to be in a mi- nority upon reserved points in appeal in Crown cases, could, upon a similar case occurring before them on circuits, rule contrary, to the declared opinioa of the majority of the Judges. To this inquire Lord Denman, in a communica- tion dated the 14th of February 1838, replica in the negative; so that as cases of appeal, in regard to franchise, were looked upon in the same light as Crown cases, the decision of the ten Judges of Ireland as to what constituted a fran- chise has been the law of the land. He wished to know what Government intended to do ; and would therefore put a few questions to the :■linisters opposite— Did they intend first to follow the honourable and learned Member for Dub- lin in the notice he had given ? next, if defeated on the first division, did they mean to follow him in the various motions which he promised to make, fir the purpose of protmeting the discussion ? and lastly, did they mean to encourage his agitation of the Repeal of the Union ? He, who came from Ireland, could assure the House that there was scarcely an out woman in that country who did not believe that the present Repeal agitation was got up as a pecuniary speculation. (Cheers and laughter.) The agitation against this bill was an utter failure. The Leinster meeting was a failure; not ten respectable people re at it. The Badlinasloe meeting was likewise it failure. Surely the Go- weernment, with their professions for Ireland, could not reject a measure which Iwould preveut perjury and secure the best interests of the country. Lord JOIN RUSSELL then rose, and spoke with unusual animation ; commencing as follows—

"It has frequently been my fortune to resist in this House motions which, sa contended, had the obvious tendency of unsettling the Reform Bill, and disturbing the franchise thereby given; but I must declare thnt of all the mo- tions event to unsettle and oppose the principle of the Iteibrm this is the most formidable ‘vhieli I have ever encountered. And. Sir, I say this, because think that, with regard to other propositions, tiny have bed gene- rally this argument in their favour, that they partook of the general spnit of the !Reform BM; that they were in fitvour Of a larg. and extended franchise,

and were 111C1111t TO See OTC ihis object—that the votes which had been .given to

the people of the Faited Kingdom sliould obtain fin them a full rind fair repre- sentation in this House. Theretbre, SI far as they were invested xvith this character, there was some excuse and (adroit for the claim which they put forward to be considered as consonant with tits spirit of the Reform Act. But the propusition now before no begins a retrograde course, in order to diminish, restrict, and abridge the franchise of a portion of one part of this United King-

dom; and this shows that hereafter all your endeavottrs—that hereafter time aim of your legislation will be, to take back the franchise which they have obtained at your hands—to make its acquisition more difficult—to consider a ma who asks for the franchise as a public enemy—and, at first by slow degrees, but eventually to diminish and destroy those franchises which the

Reform Act, as I contend, so liberally bestowed. Sir, it gives me little satis- faction in this alarm that it refers to one portion of the United Kingdom ; for I have seen evils connected with the franchise arising on every side, which de- manded the aid of legislation, many of which have attracted the attention of Government, as shown by the various measures which they proposed to this House, aml some of which thee have carried to the Upper House of Par- liament. Why, Sir, we all know that there is practised in our bormiehs bribery and tretiting to the greatest extent. The honourable and lean cml gentleman (Mr. Litton) who speaks with such horror of perjury, and says it

would become us to consider the evils which would result fixon it in Ireland, must know that an instance has lately occurred in one of our own boroughs, where a person put the Bribery-oath to a man whom he haul himself attempted to corrupt, and who he knew could not take it with a safe conscience. There were other evils—the annual registration in England ; the difficulties which the claimant tuts to contend with in Scotland, and the attempts which have been made in the Three Kingdoms at appreon and intimidation. To which of all these evil; lets the noble lord mimmi the party opposite directed their attention ? To which of them has he offered to apply a sufficient remedy To none whatever. 7';ot a single one of all these does he touch. But when he can get inslances of iminorality and perjury on which he may. ground a bill for crushing and abridging the franchise, then, and then only, is he ready to visit with punishment and penalties the el.j tcts of hi.: wrath; and that alone is the evil which the Flay opposite deem vawi by of their own peetillar Sir, I must state, lwfore 1 enter on the consideration of this 11111—viewing it, ail have already said, as a bill introduced with a flir more general object than has been hitherto altributed to it—feeling, as I do, that it is the commencement of a series of attacks, and brought in not solely, as honourable gentlemen con- nected with Ireland have naturally contended, for the purpose of depriving a great portion of the people of Ireland (lithe exercise of their franchise, but tend- ing in the end to abridge and destroy the elective franchise of the Three King- dom—( Loud cheers, mingled with dries of" Oh, oh !"frota the Opposition)— considering it, I say, in this view, and that it is an attempt made with great skill and policy (because it is not very difficult to raise a prejudice on Irish subjects, which could not be played off so successkilly if attempted with regard to this country) to circumscribe the enjoyment of popular rights—I wish first to call the attention of the House to what at present is the law with regard to registration in English counties, and the amendments it it which I proposed last year, and which I have now again submitted in the bill which I have ob- tained leave to bring in."

Lord John contrasted the advantage which his bill would confer on the constituent body and the claimants of the franchise in England, with the vexatious impediments Lord Stanley would offer to the acquisition of the franchise in Ireland; and then asked whether it was intended to introduce the same system into England ?—

" Let me ask, is this, or is it not, the system which is to be proposed for England ? jolt intended to have the system, as it is amended, as 1 propose, or to adopt this plan of the noble hid? Will you make the freeholder of England, in the first place, produce his title and make good his claim, and in the second place. expose his right to be questioned the next year and the year after, and theta (because that is another part of the Idll of the noble lord) give an appeal against him to the Judge of Assize ? Do yon really intend this plan to be carried into operation with regard to the English freeholder ? I should like to know what your answer, with regard to that question, is. But I own I shall not be satisfied with either of the zdternatives which it challenges. If the noble lord says he does not meau to apply it to England, I say then you RTC introducing an unjust system, which is a departure 110111 1111 the principles of equality which you formerly maintained with such vehemence. But if you tell me you mean to render the two systems identical, then I give the people of England warning, that this bill concerns more than the registration of Ire- land, and the prosecution of the fraud which has been brought before the pub- he ; for it is a plan, as I IHINC already declares], for the purpose of abridging the franchise of the whole people of the United Kingdom." (Enihusi«slie cheeping.)

lie reminded Sir Robert Peel, that when in 1S29 he disfranchised 200,000 of the Trials forty-shilling freeholders, he made a solemn de- claration that the freeholders who remained should not he deprived of the franchise except by the decision of a Judge and Jury, to which he might appeal from the decision of the Assistant Barrister : but what did Lord Stanley's bill propose ?—

" By the 31st clause, he gives an appeal to the Judge of Assize, ' save that no jury should he empannelled on such appeal.' Now, by these ifew words lie destroys that security. given by the right honourable "Tullman ; he violates the solemn declaration made by Parliament ; and he b'1101VS in this instance, and in others, that with regard to that popular body, a jury, lie has no confi- dence in them. The question, then, is to be'referred to the Judge. And here comes the other question which has been argued by the honourable awl learned gentleman who spoke last, as to the franchise, which he insists is now settled. Now, let the house observe what were the declarations made when this hill mvas brought in. We were then told that this bill contained no provision Whatever as to the franchise' and thnt it was not intended to legislate ou the subject. But what does the honourable and learned gentleman say ? I am not now questioning his law, which may be doubted by others, but he maintains that the opinion of ten out of the twelve Judges must be taken as the judg- ment of the whole, and that this decision must be looked upon as settled law. Now the bill of the isoble lord says, that if the Assistant Barrister should de- cide one way or the other, the Judge is to decide in either case. By this bill you would give time Judges the power of deciding in every case of franchise. It is proposed that you are to go from the Revising Barrister to the Judge, and the .Tudge is to decide upon the question. Then I say, if you do that, yoma might as well—and it would be by far the more fair and direct course so to do—I say you might as well put a clause in the bill at once stating what the franchise slut]] lie; placing upon it what limits you please, restricting it as much as you may think pr. t, ,r, insteaul of pretending not to decide you a question which yen really and virt f1.111y do decide upon in an indirect manner."

It had hems , in IS:32, by the 'Marquis of Lansdowne and the Duke of E uul, then members of Earl Grey's Government, that a

ine.ture be introduced to alter the act of 1t.29 so as to make it perceetly r!.• s that the claimant would not be called upon for proof that a solven: ts,:s -would give 10/. a year for the property conferring

the qualifiss:: r. sr and above all outgoings:. The Government had several times :••;,...yonred to introduce words into Irish Registration Bills in st, ay: ity w ith the declaration of the Duke of Ii ichniond and Lord Lansdowne ; but what did Lord Stanley ? Ile covertly, se- cretly, indirectly, sought to oyerset that declaration, and to violate the franchise. Leal John had a strong constitutional olsjcction to the power which i he bill would confer upon the Judge in reference to the question of the franchise-

" 1 obj,:et to this power to be given to the ‘Tudge:;—.1 hi COO which, as it ap- pears to tot,, is to he a supreme power over Parliament, tool especially over the

House of Col onions, The honourable and learned gentleman who spoke last

stated, to t»s great surprise, that appeal was 'always given to the Judges.' Al- ways sisee to the Jtidges ! Why, Sir, this llonse, more than a century ago, ex-

pres-sd their indignation tliat a Court of Judges, at the head of whom was no less a iff.:u than faxil Holt. gave an opinion with respect to the right of a per- son to veto ror 'Members of the I louse of Commons; and this House then de-

clared that 111,:y were themselves the sole judges or the right of persons to vote

for 'Members ot Perliament. Yet after this, the honourahle and learned gen- tleman assf:rts ibat not this House—not a Committee of this House—but the

Judges, are, awl always have been, a court of oppeal with respect to the right of voting. Sir, it is a difficult luatter to say how far a register which is once made, and which has been revhed by a competent authority, should be again examined and revised by a Committee of this House. I think, with respect to many points, is .:Iteuld be revised ; but of this I :1111 clear, that if you propose to gae this pwer generally to the Judges in the Courts of Law, you will find heibre long thet their interpretations are so restrictive of the franchise, such modes of refining upon former decisions—of advancing by slow degress to ex- clude claimants—that you will have narrowed the body in which the franchise is vesteml—(tbr that appears to me to have been the coin-se of legal decision)— that you will have destroy,ed the spirit of the Retbrin Bill, and that the power of the people will oe gone.

It was said that in reality this bill is popular in Ireland; and that "Mr. O'Connell, by some magic power, deluded the people into an op- position to that \shish they really desired- --

'- Sir, 1 belhate that flue meare assa,ifil ions Ill Ireland—there is the Conserva- tive Association, for eN.ftlople. It u.is in their power to explain this bill to the pcople—to tell them its purport and ml iiuu1. 1 think they pay a very extra- ordinary compliment to the honourable and learned ;2,a:than:in when they say that mummy representation of his would be at once believed, whilst an thing to the cont:-.Ily that they might advance would meet with no credit. '1 here may be sontst truth in thai, because the people of Ireland believe that that honour- ;11.40 awl learned gentleman, whatever his courso may he, is animated by a sin- cere loss towards them. Yost may depend upon it, that the infltienee of that lanienrable mei learned gentleinan, ,v1liell I certainly at many times have thought excessive—which at times 1 have thought dangerous—you may, I say, be assured that that influence is founded innre than any thing upon the belief, that you, who have the property and iiinitcnce, corm a party determined to diminish the rights, franchises, and privileges of the people of Ireland; and that the honourable and learned gentlemati will stand forward in defence of them. Have not tha Irish people seen at other times that there has been cause ffir such a belief? Have they not seen it with respect to the Roman Catholic quastion ? Did we not see that those who declared the greatest hostility to the concession of the Boman Catholic claims, yielded their opinions at last, not to the eloquence of Pitt or of Burke, of Fox or or Canisinnet—not to the oratory of Plunket—but they did yield before the power and the influence which the honourable and learned gentleman had acquired in lreland. Is it wonderful that there should be this belief in the representations of the honourable and learned gentleman ? Is it wonderful there should be a distrust of you? There- fore, it you wish that lreland should remain tranquil—if you wish that discord should not prevail over peace and good order—your course will he not to intro- dues toca.sures of this kind, but to introduce the fair administration of equal laws in that country, and not attempt to rouse the people again upon questions of this exciting nature."

Ile thought the entire system of registration in the Three Kingdoms required revision ; and stated particularly sonic of the amendments re- (pored in Ireland-

" Whim regard to Ireland, there certainly is at present me very considerable defect in the mode of striking voters off the register. Amid although I think there ought to be a perfect security for the /Amu fide voter, yet we ought to preve»t such abuses as the honourable gentleman has mentimied—such as the votes of dead persons being received at elections and to meet the cases of such persons as have parted with a part or the whiile of their franchise. I am of opinion that time should exist the means of revising the register at certain periods; but that period, I think, should not be more Irsquent than every three years. I conceive that with regard to the Barristers, ths power should be left as at present, and that there should not be an appeal to the Judges. But I think, in order to complete the system, it would be necessary to introduce two Idlls—one with regard to regisiration, containing the principles I have men- tioned; and the other with respect to the franchise. With regard to the per- jury and fraud that have been so much complained of, I think, supposing it to he true to the extent stated, that nine-tenths of theses have arisen from there being at present no satisfactory test of the franchise. The validity or non- validity of the qualification has been entirely a matter of opinion. The claim- ant says that he thinks his property worth 10/. a year over and above all charges that nsay be made upon. it. Some person on the other side dseacyhtsrhae. thinks it is not worth so inuell ; and it is merely upon these adverse

tions that the Ifsvising Barrister has to decide. One of the objects of the measure which we propose to introduce, will be to define the value of the pro- perty in respect of which the chains is made, and to s:tablish a certain test of the validity of the franchise."

lie protested against the doctrine, that because at some time past the Government had supported a measure containing certain provisions, they were to be for ever after precluded from opposing similar provi- sions in bills introduced by persons not belonging to the Government. lie claimed the right of acting upon an altered opinion ; but he denied that the taunt, which was thought so exceedingly good, was applicable to his conduct on the present question, because Lord Stanley's bill was essentially different from those introduced by Government- " I say in time first place, that this hill is not similar to the measures which we have introduced upon this subject—that it does not contain what was most

valuable in those measures. I say, in the next place, that what it does contain of those measures I feel to be objectionable ; but, above all, I say that the noble lord has compounded with that which was wholesome food so much poisonous matter of his own introduction—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)—that I must reject the whole coneoction—(llencreed cheering) ; and that I shall most heartily and sincerely give my- vote against his bill, being con- vinced not only that it is mischievous, but that the cause of good and pure re- gistration will be best served by its rejection." (Much cheering on the Mi- material side.) Lord STANLEY began his reply by observing, that it was a very common practice to postpone the discussion of the principle of a bill till the motion for going into Committee, but most unusual after the prin- ciple had been affirmed on the motion for the second reading—after two nights' debate, and, notwithstanding the strenuous opposition of Govern- ment, by no inconsiderable majority—it was, he said, most unusual to renew the former discussion, and to cell upon the I louse to repudiate the decision which it had deliberately made. But he did not complain: he shrunk not from the diseteadon of the principle of his measure. Still less did he complain of the manner in which he had been met by Sir William Somerville ; whose opposition was good, straightforward, frank, and manly—not a shuffling endeavour to get off by getting into Committees who would never( report, or by promising to introduce bills which would never be pro ceded with. He rejoiced that Sir William Somerville had placed the craeter of the opposition to the bill in so clear a light belbre the country. The amendment went to this—that consideration was to be refused to a bill calculated to remedy evils the existence of which nobody denied. Ile had been especially cautious not to provoke party spirit in the speech which introduced this bill to the House. Lord lilorpeth had fully admitted that. But how had he been used iu return — " Ever since the last stage of this bill, I have been personally the subject of the most violent and towpath).* abuse on the part of the learned Member for Dublin, in every place Micro lie has met the people of Ireland. Of that abuse I will say nothing inure tThut that! am sure there is no honourable gentlenum in this noun who expects that I should pay the slightest attention to it. ( Loud and ninriine(! eho:ring.) But there arc some of the statements that 'lave been made ity the honouralde and learned Member for Dublin, as grounds for rejectins. this bill, which contain misrepresentations a the fact so gross and so palpable that it is impossible I should pass them by without adverting to them here—the only place in which the honourable and learned Member and I are likely to meet in discussion." (Loud and protracted cheering.) He rested the defence of his bill tit:on the fact, that the evils it was intended to remedy were notorious and indefensible •, and he showed, by reference to the state of the registry in Dublin, Waterford, Long- ford, and other places, that the number of fictitious voters was very large. He produced private letters, and made statements on his own au- thority, to convince the I louse that perjury and the practice of voting in the name of dead men were prevalent in Ireland. Ile cited Mr. O'Connell as a witness to facts of the same desc ri ohm ; referring to that gentleman's speech in the discussion of the Irish Reform Bill. Having devoted much attention to this part of his argument, Lord Stanley proceeded to re- mark, that it was, no doubt, very convenient for Lord John Russell to re- pudiate the bills introduced by himself and his colleagues in 1835, 1836, and 183S, but not very creditable to him. It was, indeed, unworthy of him now to put forth a miserable pretence of bringing forwmal a bill to detormine the franchii s, at, tdi ft:tuuteut against going int:, Committee en a bill which was lints-Ii d a long ago as the 6th ctf Maf.ell, and it id ltes.tn read a second fittt.,. And this conduct was not the 1.2ss un- worthy, that the leading provisions of the measure, which Lerd John Russell now denounced, had Mt been copied from bills brought in by Government or the supporters of Government. But he was blamed fur an omission, as well as for what he had inserted in the bill—he had not defined time franchise. He had, however, only followed Lord John Russell's examitle in this respect also. Lord John, on bringing forward the Reform Bill, said, " I will keep separate the two points of registra- tion and franchise." Even innv, if he was not mistaken, Lord John Russell was prepared to follow the same course, and legislate ou the two questions in separate bills.

At the elou of his speech, Lord Stanley said he disclaimed in lob, the motives imputed to him by his opponents- " I cannot prove to time satisfaction of the noble lord what my motives are, and I have thought it in g:neral more in accordance with Parliamentary practice not

to impute motives ; but these, I will state, have been my motives—that seeing a system of fraud, of perjury, of fictitious votes overwhelming the tend ,fide constituency in It eland—seeiog that there was no legitimate remedy by m hick that enormous evil could he met—seeing that the Government hail upon va- rious occasions introduced measures which I thought well calculated for meet- ing those evils, if they had not been encumbered with provisions whleit in-

sured their rejection-1 have brought forward a bill, desiring not to curtail the /Iene,fide franchise, but to fall the pledge given by Lord Grey's 6.■%ermileid, that after pursuing and trying the sscii a English registration, if it were

found to answer, we would oh pt tl e of mutual revision in Ireland,

with a sincere desire to purify the conetit ttettey of Ireland; and 1 believe that this measure is calculated so to purify and maintain the rights of the honii

,fide electors, to the exclusion of those who hull their votes and confer seats in this House having no sort of claim to be on the registor. By these motives alone have I been actuated in taking on inys,if a very laborious mid thankless

task ; and, whether the noose of Cnietiis,linhl think fit on this occasion to recede from the position they them el ve, ca inn to a month ago, or whether, as I rather hope they shall confirm tle ir !lah imit agree to discuss in Committee the details of this bill, I shall be .:t1istleil that have done what in me lay to purify the conetit nein.). of Ireland, and to give effect to and. not to violate the spirit and provisions or flue Reform Act," Major MAcsalalia moved that the debate be adjourned. Lord Jolts Russma, really did not see why they should not proceed. Lord HowieK hoped the adjournment would be conceded. lie was unwilling to divide without stating reasons for the vote he should give. Lord JOHN RUSSELL Withdrew his opposition.

Lord STaxmiv would not oppose the adjournment, if Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Hume, who had notices which must take precedence, would waive their right.

Mr. O'CoNx Ent. would not facilitate that arrangement.

Lord STaNnmc said, in that case he would oppose the adjournment. The House divided—

Fur adjourning the debate 262 Against it '281 Majority 19

Mr. O'CONNELL then moved the adjournment of the House. But, after another conversation, it was arranged that the debate should be adjourned to the next day.

On Tuesday, accordingly, the debate was continued. The speakers against the motion for committing" the bill were Mr. Daum BROWNE, Mr, VILLIERS STUART, Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, Lord CHARM; RUSSELL, Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL, Mr. PICOT, Mr. &MORI% and Sir THOMAS WILDE ; the Members who declared in favour of going into Committee were Mr. JOHN YOUNG, Sir GEORGE &man, Mr. CHARLES WOOD, Colonel CONOLLY, and Lord Howicx, The arguments for the most part were the same as those produced on the previous night. Even the Solicitor-General had little new or forcible to offer. The more remarkable points in the debate we proceed to notice.

Sir C. HOIICSE SINCLAIR thus accounted for the tranquillity of Ireland

Ireland, they were told, was tranquil, but so was an army completely equipped for battle ; flue Commander-in-Chief gives the word to 4' stand at case ;" although they are prepared to obey him with still greater alacrity when he orders then to make reed.v, present, tire." Ilad mint Father Macguire himself, the accredited Popish champion in till polemical conflicts, openly proclaimed that he himself mid nine-tenths of his sacerdotal coadjutors, are resolved to bring their respec. tire contingents of Tee-totallers into the field if a line of policy should h adopted which does not meet with their sanction amid upproval ? Ireland was

Sir George amused the House, and raised a laugh against Mr. O'Con- nell, by delivering such a speech as lie said Ile should like to address to the " mixed multitude " at the Dublin Corn Exchange, if he could be insured a sere conduct and a smooth passage across the Channel. It was a jocular exposure of Mr. O'Connell's method of establishing asso- ciations and procuring funds.

Mr. Cita ni,Es Woon said, he had voted against the second reading of the bill ; but the House having sanctioned the principle, he could not now join in reversing that decision by refusing to consider its provisions in Committee—though he would not finally vote for any measure which threw difficulties in the way of the legitimate franchise.

lord Howie': spoke to the same effect as Mr. Charles Wood; and said that he had voted reluctantly against the second reading, to show his confidence in the Government ; but he would not now reverse the decision which the House had come to, by preventing the consideration of the bill in Committee.

Another adjournment of the debate was proposed by Mr. Homy.; on the ground that he wished himself to address the Douse, and that Mr. O'Connell also ought to have the opportunity or speaking on the ques- tion.

Motion rejected, by 431 to 127.

Mr. llt•nE then moved that die House adjourn ; which motion was negatived, by 375 to 91.

Mr. Hunt: having again moved that the debate be adjourned to Wed• nesday,

Lord STANLEY rose to protest against this abuse of a really valuable privilege— No one was more ready than himself to admit that there were occasions on which some unreasonable propositions might be pressed in a thin House and at a very late hoar, by an overwhelming majority, for which the power of moving adjournments was the last and ouly remedy. In his judgment, it was valu- able at such A time ; but then only was it a justifiable measure. It mast be clear to emery one, that it' any gentleman on either side was determined that a great question should not be settled without even offering to submit his opi- 111011S ell the Slthieet front five o'clock in the afternoon to two next morning, he might, by moving adjournment afl..2r adjournment, render it absolutely im- possible to conduct the busbies:: of the Ilouse. lIn really should have thought that the honourable and lettri:ed 1`tiettilter for Dublin coming over from Ireland, burning with resentment ttpuinst this ldll, and against him, having met him thee to Thee in that it ease, would have taken the earliest opportunity of redeem- ing the pledge he made in Dublin, that he would reiterate his charges to his Thee; and that the honourable and learned gentleman would at all events have had the honesty or purpose to do so according to the rules of the House, when he should have been enabled to answer his accusations. But, waiving the ad- vantage of a reply, he did not expect that the honourable and learned gentle- 1mm, utter two nights had been con!!!tmed in debating this question, which had been the subject matter of two nights' previous discussion on the second mel- ing, without having made an attempt to oiler himself to the House, would have resorted to a measure which, after all, could lead to nothing but public inconvenience and the stoppage of business, by agaiu moving the adjournment of the hiouusc. (.1l1wh cheering.) As he knew the minority must succeed by moving adjournments, be could only apply to Members who had precedence on Wednesday— Mr. Talfourd for his Copyright Bill, mid other Members for other motions—to allow the adjourned debate to take precedence on that day.

Mr. TALrowto readily acceded ; aud the House rose.

The speakers on Wednesday, against the bill, were Mr. lit•mE, Mr. BEDINGTON, Mr. E. B. noenm, Mr. DAVID CALLAGHAN, Mr. SOMERS, Sir CHARLES GREY, Mr. O'CONNELL, and Lord MORPETH on the other side, Mr. LUCAS, Mr. MII.NES GASKELL, Mr. THESIGER., and Sir ROBERT PEEL. The debate for the most part was dull and languid. The speeches delivered in the early part of the evening present no pas- sages of interest for. extract, and did not in any degree advance the argument on the main question. Mr. O'CONNELL commenced his speech by admitting that the bill was good for Members of Parliament, for the lifty-pound freeholders, for the clergy, and for the richer class of voters ; but it would be hard to show that it was not oppressive to the poorer. As for Lord Stanley's exhi- bition of resentment, it was completely thrown away. From the ap- pearance of the House, the zeal of Ireland's enemies, and the lukewarm- Bess of her friends, it was clear that he might safely adjourn retaliation for Lord Stanley's vituperative attacks to another occasion : there would be Plenty of opportunities for retaliation before the forty clauses of the bill were disposed of. He maintained that the bill had its origin in the hatred which the Conservatives bore to Ireland, and the spirit of ma- lignant bigotry which was exhibited in their favourite organ " the vile Times," in their after-dinner orations, and in the speeches of the Iteve- rend Mr. MtNeile and others at public meetings. He admitted that abuses existed in the registration system of Ireland ; but not to such an extent as in Scotland, where hundreds of fictitious votes were made on mall properties. Let Sir George Sinclair look to his own country— "Hypocrite, first take the beam out of thine own eye,1

teen mayst thou

see clearly to take the mote out of thy brother's eye. 'Fhere were, be denied it not, some questions which required settlement ; but this bill did not touch them. With respect to the franchise, he would himself move an instruction to the Committee to give as extended a suffrage to Ireland as to England. Ile would not enter into the details of the mea- sure, but would describe its real character— It was a bill proceedieg from a ,pirit most hostile to Ireland. It iras a bill widening the space that at present saparated the Irish from the English people, and enlarging and aggravating the distinction now existing bet wcen them. It was a bill that branded upon the Irish nation the mime cf slaves (.' Olt, oh r' and " Hear, heap I") was a bill, in short, to transfer power and to extin- guish the Liberal representation or the people of Ireland, and hand them over to be bound at the feet of the Tories.

Lord Stanley had "somebody's luck besides- his own." (" Name, name 1") Oh, you know him very vell. (Load ayhter.) Ile could read to the House from the history of Ireland's ill, page after page, proofs of the deepest treachery, of the blackest ingratitude, of the grossest violation of treaties that could distress a government or impnverish and crush a people. But he would once more call on the House—though he might call in vant—to do towards Ireland that which they would do to England. if they wanted assimilation of the laws, let it lie se. Ilut he exherfish them, at their peril, not to attempt to do that towards Ireland which they would not dare do towards England.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that the progress of this debate had confirmed his opinion of the wisdom of the rule which reserved the consideration of details for the Committee. That rule had been departed from on the present occasion ; and the consequence was, a necessarily imperfect and unprofitable debate on the details. Ife would not advert to the separete clauses of the measure, but would address himself to the coneideration whether Parliament ought to attempt to cure the admitted alitises of the Irish Registration system— They had two alternative propositions before thelm—the policy or making an attempt to reform the system; or the indefinite postponement, ir not the abso- hits abandonment of that attempt—as suggested by her Majesty's Government. lie acknoeledged that this question depended not upon those who were the most actively concerned in party polities. His conviction was that there would be it decision in favour, mint of this bill, nor of any rartienlar clauses in it, hut in favour of the priliciple that an attempt should be mmmi k to cure the admitted abuses of the existing. system. His reliance was not nikmit the strength of party connexions—his reliance w as upon that portion of Ilme lloass who had proved, by their absence on a former odevion, a conscientious coniietion that the attempt ought to be made; aria he did hope that those honourable Mem- bers would have the courage and firmness to v. sist the appeals wide!' hail been nide to them, and the attempts which bad been made to unInce the House to revoke the decision to which thay had already conks They had the, example of the Member Ibr Northumberland, and the Alenther for I teliinx ; they hail the example of men whose party prepossessions were decidedly in favour ot. the Government, and who had been the Illends of every measure of a Liberal na- ture, and who had told the House that they did not approve of many of the provisions of the bill.

The conduct of Government was an additional reason why this I louse should at least consider Lord Stanley's bill in Committee. ft was ma- nifest that the Government had declared the intention of bringing in a bill of their own, merely to give Members an excuse futr mm m,' Lord Stanley's proposition ; and that was a mode of proceeding be could not consider honest. Lord John Russell's bill was to iaclude alterations in the franchise.

Lord JOHN INESELL----" Another bill."

Sir Ronister Print.--" Yes ; " and one of their hollcriv objections to Lord Stanley's bill was, that it did not touch the franchise. The Soli- citor-General hail said that year after year they would send up bills for extending the franchise, to the Lords, knowing that they would be rejected, but knowing also that the time must come when they would pass— When ? By a creation of new Peers? No; but when the present heirs- apparent of those who are now sitting in the House of Contlosm-, and who are imbued with popular fbeling, would- succeed to the Peerage, amt. as a rouses (pience, exter::n mute the bigotry ot thew predeccsFors; their gradual FIRTSSI011 would introduce a new feeling into the I loaFe of Lords; anii then, but not till then, the Government bill will pass. Let them jtn,t indealete the period %rhea this alnration would take place. (Lute/hese) From the heirs-apearent that would succeed the present Peers, let them deduct these heirs who w,..re now iit the House of Commons, aud iv mu, doubticsm, not I), ing imbued willm popular feeling, would that night vote fur his noble friend's bill, and then they might make a calculation when the time would calm', by a succession of heirs-appa- rent, for the passing of the leerned gentlemates measure. (Hrn Need la ttyhler.) In the mean time, the Solicitor-General would rest perfectly contented.

But what in the mean time would become of the abuses of the Irish registration system ?- ,Let hitn especially ask those honourable Members who were lets encumbered tv!th party ties. (Laughter from the Ministerial benches.) lie saw the alarm with which every appeal to those gentlemen was received, yet Le mast ask inclined to divide with me. At present we must lee ranks." mutt erise Lord Joire Reset:1.r. said, that :ray Change in , from .11eitibera Inc clog left the Idolise under the lee tele, -;,

would be no ferther division mmmcl there tbr' cuu.1,1

3Ir. Ilume.

Mr. Ile:site Gstne"reis exclaimed, " Call I" • to reduce lids majmity as much is paaibia. Yee, ele Ineee.

hare det your light to site by beiles plated hi that eietir--(7,lee,.-

gained the vote of the Speaker, as tde House ls jim CUIllIlliiLce. ,, t. e have thus !..sdileil a mojority of one, and cau thus

stop tlte

Afr. I fume, however, would not persevere after Lord .Tolm Rusty hi's flpite:ti to hint.

The CI:al.-nu:tit then reported pragesss ; mini Cle! Ileuise rose at two o'clock.


The Archbishop of Defiers brought this stNect under the C011Skier- ation of the Ilottee of Lords on Tuesdey. lie presented a petition

those fair and honest gentlemen, whether it was decent, after the Iluuse of Commons had read this bill a second time by a large majority, and so far adopted the principle of amendment as to agree to refer the'matter to a Committee, whether it was so far reasonable to oppose flint decision us to re- ject the Committee, and trust the amendment of the abuses of the Irish re- gistration system to the chance of the Government making an attempt that was so certain to be ineffectual.

It was alleged that the Legislature would act wisely in treating the Irish people with kindness and forbearance : but it stets the reverse of' kindness to encourage corruption. and not trite forbearance to forbear from the suppression of perjury. Gentlemen opposite were Reformers only when Reform was prolettble to themselves—

If there was a charge of fictitious voting io Scotland, which was supposed to be favourable to the Conservative c m. there memo a lonti outcry raised on the other side oh' the House; and propositions for the correction of the alleged abuses were made, and acceded to WI! Ii tiui miinmost promptitude. If the old system of corporations interfend with their views or prospects, they were mer- teetly reedy to remedy the evils or tlmco corporations. Ile would advise those gentlemen not to make it appear to the publie that where corruption was ad- mitted, and not only admitted but proved. that their desire to reform those

abuses was only coutmgent it tiu! advent az,es which by slidi reform would accrue to their own party, Ill the present ease time alamses were dear and ad- mitted. Ihey were niluntted by every nman wha had spoken upon the (pea- t ion. The non, was called upon, ilot to extirpate those mauves, lest in uoing Oil it mbdit SCUM to act harsh!, and unkindly toward Ireland; but in his opi- nion it would be both unkind and animist not to endeavour to remedy abuses which were so gl irleg mei o'svious. 'Nothing could be more dishonest than to impnte to those who m- mil at the refisuation of an admitted !thus,' the desire to curtail the franchise in Ireland, and to denofthce the intentions of those who aimed at reformat :mom becalm,: mm:.:11 nine-ramie:1 wsetild he injurious to -.he interests of the opposite party.

Lord '31oniteerit said, that Sir Robert Peel came to the discussion late, coy, and reluctant. and not till lie could find no plausible excuse for deserting au ally who so mueli ix cited his counsel di the perilous course he had linden:ahem It wee not till the battle bad been pro- tracted, and the Tiesieils beeme deree in the finlit, that 1.1yeees catne

to the relief and rescue a Ajax.. No doubt, Hobert l'eel regretted that his hot ;mud heady ally hail plungsd into the flood, and was dragging

his party after him into the turlialeet whirlpool of lrielt .Aa to the bill. it contehled every thiws. tiltlt WIIS arditrary, coercive, end disfranchising in every previous Lin -- Every thing coercive ammo ScIt'et, o: bills hue, leant new Saatchi

bills there, and stringent Imi1u I. h ehacv here. It reminded him of the painter whim, wishing 10 0.111V nee of female loveliness, selected

some part icular Iss: my from cry Cr) ,t. rpurai y perfect ion ; only thst the attempt MIS, by the same :se:, iss to c it an 1,pposite object, for the lord stripped every contens !ors. sla,s•nre of every pal ision that was re..!rietive, illdrauchising, and coareivis to faent one hideous whole. (Laughite h‘,(1 cheers.) lie deaied the charge that t l,.; lied no sincere intention to

introduce a hill of their own ; elens1. eed t'or Ireland had

drawn up a bill f.nine''. 11:■(•%, ■.11,.1o:\ cm,t1711114. tO frallle its pro- visioue so as to pressed Oppiil-i miii set :)mmy ym:171m,r. Ile waS not pre-

Pared to enlarge the franchise, lint wote een attempt to contract it ; and for that reason he opposed the Illi isofuso the Ifottee. The House divided ; and the numbers were--

For going into Conmumil tee :`,11 I'or the ammiclinent—" that t!.:. 1:mmtm:.•ci upon lids clay m,i'; milem!mhs, solve it ail into

the said Co:Jamitice" 29S :klitjority 3 [1.0nd cheer:: front the Coileervatives followed the annoancentent of these numbers.;

)r.r. Punsitrini.n wile put ii j mm cL ir ; bet iltne Henn pretested again t proceeding further at i FL ,■filt. 11 Jolt N not alluw a single stage to be teken that Hight. Lord STANI.CS luopeti there be no objection to read the bill per...ie.:10i by paragraph, and to rostrum' the preamble.

).,Ir. nem :: would net ;Wow e sees) to le telten ; itecl moved filet Mr. Preshfield do leave the ellaiie

Lord Jon:: [trees:et. never heard of an attempt to proceed under such circumstances.

Lord STANLEY did not wish to mehe nny reel cc cc, but the Cheir- marl might report progress, :eel ask leave to sit on Friday, when tin arrangement might le. intele proveeding thither With the bill. Sir NVIL1.1.tm emild net believe Leed Stanley seriously expected to carry his hill through the Committee. Lord Jolts: Rteeseet. thutigle it lest to adopt Lund Stanley's proposi- tion--to itaport lesetress prof:tete. )11.. said, as no ',lee:rue, heil bean \--;i1,1 not egree to report any- . I wish yrol. Sly, to the elia7r. We only m mm 70. nut-as of Par- liament, who rrobol!";,! belies! our next meseting slee•struck at rites (Hears W11.1,g ■Ione, to convert our mnituarimy ! !. shall press ,qe/m/qhtcm. Mott Orposition br?,,,;:e.z.) I don't .,•

',denies not

ikv inidiell.10 a ineision if the todadi lend the S'ecretar..

!'ivislon m..s.ir


signed by 225 wealthy and respectable residents of Loudon and West- felonry," ns it was termed, was to encourage the emigration of an honest sad mmster, Including five or six merchants trading to New South Wales, industrious class of persons. As Ina might an attempt be made to purify the corrupt and loathsome sewers of this great city, by pouring into them afar who prayedefor the entire abolition of the punishment of transportation. Ile felt the difficulty of attracting the attention of the House to a subject cups fluff of clear water. .The experiment was tried_ some time ago of sear% which had been under his own contemplation for many years, and in- (`)Iet a deed had been in the first instance absolutely forced upon his consider- foretold. The young women came,recommended by certificates of good derearae‘;, ation— from the clergymen of the villages in which they were reared; and it wee It was a subject many persons had told him they had never much thought argued that they were to effect a great moral good in the colony. As well about ; and when he induced them to to so, they geeerally shrunk back with might a few pints of sound wine have been poured into a cask of vinegar to horror from the foul and loathsome details it was weessary to go through in convert the whole into wine. Nineteen-twentieths of those females were Ir. order to form a competent judgment upon it, awl rather pushed it from them ; retrievably ruined; and in a very short space of time became profligates of the observing that they believed it was a matter attended \vide great difficulties— Nvorst description, But stop the colonization of convicts altogether; stopthat that it was a very melancholy and disagreeable subjed. and that they w meld " shameful and unblessed thing," as Bacon called it ; nod then send over late rather not meddle with it. This they said either virtually or in \rind. Dilli- betties of sound emigrants ; send them over, not by scores or hundreds, but g culties there must be in legislating upon any important subject, and most par- tens of thousands ; send them over in large bodies at once ; and then, in ticularly on such a one as this, when it heed Leen so Icing. a subject of unwise there might be some prospect of " swamping the felonry " of the Feuded). legislation. There was great trouble in devising good is:La:sures for a comet iv, tunics,

and still more in undoieg unwise measures ; anal that trouble was necessarily He would not enter into all the disgusting details which showed the increased when there was nothing idtractive in the naturo 01 the subject itself; horrible state of society in these colonies ; but he would locution one and of course most persons were apt to seek an exense 10 excinpt themselves fact, and leave the rest to their Lordships' imagination—though it wa: from devoting their 0 te•ntion to it. There erere alive; :; difficulties when men not possible for their imagination to reach the reality : the proportiOn 'were unwilling; the slothful man said-- :lore is a lion in the path." But on

this occasion he heel to congratulate the !loose, the c.,;:i:trv, and her Majesty's of men to women w as as seventeen to one!

Ministers, on the thawing, in a small degree, of this toyntbet in: indifference, and One of the grounds on which the present system received support, that more attention had of late been (Idled to it ; and that some impurtant, was its alleged cheapness ; but it was infinitely more expensive and though he could not dila sufficient qualifications Lad Infen 10f:educed, or pro- wasteful than many systems of punishment w Inch might be adopted at posed to be introduced, in the present system. home. The Archbishop proved this by a reference to estimates of the But the aid of Parliament was necessary to diulle Miuisters, if they cost of keeping couvicts at Norfolk Island and in Penitentiaries in

were so inclined, to take effeetive measures ; and that aid he proposed England. But it was said, how are convicts to be got rid of, if you to give them. Their Lorelshios ought to know that transportatiou to don't send thou to a distant colony ? Ile thought the question ad. Penal Colonies had been strongly opposed at its conneomednent by mated of an easy answer— Lord Bacon, and that Hoe :erd had termol the Penal Coloeies nurseries Ile acknowledged it to be an evil in this country, that there should he le of wickedness. \Then a elerp,x man in Suffolk, tla, A reideisle qe lead ocea- nuany discharged criminals turned loose upon society ; but here, if they were Lion to know that they \Vt..i"e tightly choracterize d I■V IIONVUrd. Ile verily believed, that if Ii lie. persons were trmeeperteel and only five formed awl exemplary dearneters. In thee Colonies it was evidely differed, came back, those five we wia bring with them more conceetrated wick- There, when a convict's perioet of punishment lead expired, he fell into a so. edness than the w hole fitty took out. I IA air, l'itt poste zewd the ex- defy that was vicious to the Very cure. No inducement was offered to him to perience which had since been obtained, lee clover could Imve sanctioned embark in an honest course of Ea% Surrounded by others as vicious as him- a scheme begun in defiance of all reason, and continued in defiance of self, the earnest and sole endeavour of all was to keep each other in comae.

all experience— name. It was said that in these Colonies the population were constantly en- It was so bad in its effects, (as proved icy all he had seen around him, and gaged. in declining and conjugating villainy, in every mood and tense, number

from all his inquiries enabled hien to learn,) that lie 'ee-e-e: elyite sure none of and person. As they encountered each oilier, this, 'if not the style of ewer- those of his brethren among the clergy who had t:fficci cc loot in raising thole sat ion, was at least the turn of thunght—" You are 0 thief; I am a thief; we voices against the slave-trade, or al.einst any other eidenes se ,e ;:e, would ever have always thieved ; we always will thieve." In this country every chance have thought of censuring line, or of ridiculing him tier tals'ille a part a0ainst was given to a man, upon his discharge from prison, to go and do better; but what he was convinced was a in it w DI'S(' SySt on of slavvry—ilatoUlv, de as. in the Colonies every inducement was held wit to him to continue in his career signment of Convicts to Olaskr,. Ilvd making those =Arm their enolers. That of vice. Ile trusted that the Government would receive a second Report system was proved bone,: the Commons' Committee to Le loc r... corrupt than from the Commissioners on the Constabulary, which would point out more oven the system of Negro site Se.ry, knowing, as he did, the tele idations that than the first had done what means should be taken for flee prevention of were held out by returned (.021Vills to the commission of crime, and that in crime. A great number of persons were loose upon society who had not bees many instances crimes were actually committed by parties with a VieW of being detected or convicted; and something latest be done to take away from them transported, he could not with an honest conscience stiy, " Iciiil US meet into the encouraging prospects held out by dee chance of being or wit being con- temptation," if he was a party to, or even mglected to act egainst a systemic victed at the end or a few years. Thew career should be cut off at once. If which led his brethrt'll IMO tialiptatillel. Penitentiaries were ultimately erected (»I tine Separate system, and H. the pre-

carefully abstained from over-etatement and over. eoluuriner, of which

lie bad been accused by anonymous w riters. The CV iLnce given before the. I louse of Commons showed that he had greedy understated fHe repeated, that Inc was not ashamed of having dissuaded people

the enurniitier of transportation ; and In fad, the only reply he had lished- received was " What w ill you substitute ?" Ile had never proposed a Should he not have tuld them thee truth, and told them they were going to a specific substitute ; though he he thrown out see .-c ii su,t'ffeSt10116 for place where theh. neighbours would be robbers, where the women were the the better disposalof f

convicts. in order to obtain ttee ufformation vilest of prostitutes, and where the servants they would Iffie would he the out- needed for safe cued wise leeislat ion, lee had suggested an inquiry into casts of sochey—persons who would corrupt their innocent children in a way the state of the Constaleulary free ; which luul bean emelertaken, and a too horrible to mention ? Should he leave sabl—" Go; you mill associate with Report lead been published by the Conuinhision which conducted thee mauy wealthy parsons. Laving their 10,000/. and 20,000C—but acquired how?

posed, any specific substitute tor transportation, but he maintained. that t Jere an improvement noon the system which he so strongly condemned.

iluiry- By the arts of swindling. Shoidel he say "go" to such a country ns this? Why, . le tiniest be permitted. to say that the Report to which lee Lel referred was their Lordships would be shocked tel the idea of the meanest of their domestics in his estimation, one of the !nest valuable doeunwnts ever ter-educed by thee settling there. What should lie then have done ? Should he leave put for- present or any preceding government. Ile could not sav that it furnished any ward the fertility of the soil, and have pointed out all advantages, real Or Me. very pleasant r.,n(ling, but from tic . Icc%;,cocie.„; to Cr ein:11 le cc as highly interest- posed, to induce persons to emigrate to such a colony ? Ile would say, that if lug. It w as inei,..sib!,, to peruse that v:clualcie volume without perceiving that he could have advised any persons to go there, or have left then' unwarned of ameatis. might be adopted for suppressing crir.P..., and prevencling criminals from the facts,. he could not have rested quietly he his bed. Ile hail trespassed long

pursuing tlw career of vice and wickedness that they now did. It was impos- upon then. Lordships' time, but not longer than the importance of the subject table that trunsportation or any other punishment, however severe or cruel, lord expired. Ile congratulated the country upon an approach towards a modification of the Transportation system in the proposed abolition of the assignment of convicts to masters in the Penal Colonies,—the most odious system of slavery that eve r existed for nothing could be so bad as a nation consisting of gaolers and prisoners—of criminals and execu- tioners. These and their offspring ceeld not fail to form the most :anxi- ously corrupt and vicious community that ever the sun shone upon, a ot only in Christian but in Pagan times \V he list the present state of things existed, it was impossible lb u' thee holiest nrel. 'e'esees labourer to emigrate to New South Wales or Van Diemen's I at ed. What could be a greater impediment to emigration eir me), or Hotutotca character, than the horribly debased and demoralized condition --the w hat t should Ile call it ?—the Sodom and Comorrah state of these Penal Colonies, where, as one of the convicts had said, a nem lost the heart of a man and acquired the Imart of a besst

Ile had beec 1 Le eu cl by other persons ffir having disconragol the emigration or free and met:anted labourers ; and a hope end expectation had been ex- pressed that he might he unsuccessful in his endeavours. Perhaps he should be unsuccessful—at all events, he should have cleared his own conscience ; lent whenever any one applied to him for advice upon the subject, he would never Cease to use every endeavour in his power to dis.,unde him from emigrating as long as the present system continued. Ile had been told that the only way of improving the condition of society in those colonies, and of " swamping the cargo of once innocent and virtuous females to supply the mi abr, et oatrSeevocianien in the colonies. The consequence was what he for esw serarti

- at all well disposeel, opportunities were afforded to them of embarking in as honest career—of turning over, as it were, a " new leaf," and becoming re.

sent system of distant Penitentimies were immediately done newsy with, much would leave been done to remove the effects of half a century of UILWISe, and he would say, unjust legislation. '

ront going to the Penal Colonies until transportation shall be abo- carried on, lie had great hopes that a strong expression of opinion front their Lordships whether this subject was to lee tossed from thew connsels merely be- cause it was unpalatable and partook of nothing approaching to a party charfic- ter. Ile called upon such of their Lordships as had coesidered the question and perused tile documents that had been before the public for two years, to take some effectual means for removing so great an evil from this country and th • Colonies, for freeing the latter limn the greatest curse that could have been inflicted upon them, and ffir ramo-ing from the civilized world at large— nay, and the uncivilized too—an ii jell-.- and an evil; and from this country one of the foulest stains that could be ateixed upon leer national character. In conclusion, the Archbishop moved a resolution, " That the punish- ment of transportation be abolished immediately, completely, and finally."

The Marquis of Nonert eel- complimented Dr. \\lately on tile talent rend research he had broueler te bear upon this subject, and by which he had already effected so nitwit i..sted. Many useful alterations had been made since the elaborate and most able report of the Transportation Committee. Attractive accounts were not now sent home by convicts in the Penal Colonies ; and the feeling with respect to transportation lead materially, changed. Pour-fifths of the objections to transporta- tion would be got rid of by the order that in future no convicts should be sent to New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land. When, however, it was proposed to abolish transportation entirely, and even innnediately, he could state strong reasons why this ought not to be done--

demanded ; for lie would ask, what Were Judges and a code of laws and a Por-

la the first place; had not been till within a few years that attention had. been sufficiently directed to the subject. There was much in the manner and habits of the English people that would render them peculiarly unwilling to elnose to the public eye persons convicted of offences. He urged that con- geration, because he held it to be impossible to go on beneficially as they had -done, and were continuing to do, in the gradual abolition of the thinistuni;nt of death, unless sonic pumshment for life were substituted. Ile considered it ins- Nrsible that the English would submit to the knowledge of a human Mpg betag immured within four walls for his whole life; still less, he apprehended, wood they allow that punishment to be inflicted upon a fidlow-being which os adopted on the Continent, namely, that of compelling them to work in chains in the public streets, like galley-slaves. The expense was a minor consideration, but be did not think Dr. il'hately had treated that part of the subject with his usual dearness. lie bad himself received an estimate, (which he conceived must be ex- aggerated,) that the first cost of establishing general penitentiaries in

England would be twenty-five millions sterling, and the annual expense of maintaining them a million and a half. Again, he believed it had been ascertained that the health of persons suffered in this climate from

separate confinement. Then as to providing inum•diately a receptacle in this country for 2,230 convicts, it would be phy slimily impossible. In conclusion, whilst he warned the House against adopting great changes rashly or suddenly, be entertained so high a respect for the most reverend prelate, and so sincere a regard for lihn personally, that he would not move a direct negative on his motion, but would meet it with the previous question."

The Bishop of Exeerem attributed much of the wickedness that pre- vailed in the Penal Colonies to the neglect of the Government to provide

religious instruction to the inhabitants. With respect to the amount of

that wickedness,. there were conflicting statements ; some of which made the proportion of crime to the population much less in New South Wales than in England. lk considered that the colonists had good

right to complain of the manner in which they had been depraved tit the produce of their land-sales, by which they ought to have been supplied

with labour from Europe. Ile was himself convinced, that emigratims on a large scale was the most likely way of benefiting the colony and improving the state of society there.

The Earl of Wicktow dwelt upon the horrible immorality of the Penal Colonies, and considered it to be the duty of Government to pre- pare for the abolition of transportation— If it could not be immediately abolished, we should recollect that there were colonies wit sin our reach—the island of Bermuda, for instauce—w 11 her con- rids could be conveyed, until such tissue as penitentiaries could he 'Mill. That House and the country ought to be distinetn. intbrmed of the intentioesiii Government. If the recommendations of the Committee ()I the I hms.., of Commons were not to he attended to, the Government ought to say ,0 • but it; on the other band, they were to be acted upon, the Government might at Nee to inform the country of the exact course to be pursued.

The Bishop of NORWICH questioned the right of any nation, under any circumstances, to scatter its refuse population over the wotad, an.1 especially to inoculate barbarians with the profligaey of civilization.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE stated, that while it was intended to confine transportation to particular and remote points, the number or transported convicts would also be diminished— He entirely agreed with the most reverend prelate, that einigrariDn 011 a large kale should he encouraged, to repair the great injury which -had liven done to this newly-discovered country aunt its society by deluging it with our rice and. criminality. The Ls gislature ought to look to the enormous evil that had been thus indicted, and devise a remedy for it. Much had been done by sueeetsive Governments to improve the unfortuilate state of this eolony—a colony of criminals without any spiritual care ; and he was prepared to state t list every year clergymen had bee11 sent out, and (luring the short period Lord -:.(1■1'1111111by had held the seals of the Colonial 011ice, several Were sent to the colony to supply its spiritual destittition. In addition to this, thousands of five sH were sent oust Miring the course of the last year out of funds supplied by the Government ; and he had every l'etIS011 to suppose that as many nsoru would he eonreyed there during the present year in the stone manner. He entis.•lv ngreed with the report of the Committee of the Dottie of' Connumin, to which it was the intention of the Government ns nearly as piesible to adhere. There was not to be an immediate and until c abolition of the sy stem (it' tratispos tat ism, hut a gradual restriction of it within the narrowest I ins is. Ile was cult vineed, that in the present state of the law of this country—tlitst law, :is their Lord. ships well knew, being in a state of transition from a capital punishment c,.r- ned fossil excess, to a system of humane regard for life—it would be unwise to abolish entirely the punishment of transportation fiw life. The last thing he could consent to would be that this punishinent should be abolished in certain Men. There were sense crimes which retittived It severer punishment than any, short of death, which could be inflicted iii this cottotry ; and against such enmes the certainty of undergoing a hard punishment, in a remote part of the globe, would operate 119 a salutary check. 'Flue Archbishop of DUBLIN regretted that transportation to Norfolk Island and Tasman's Peninsula was to be continued. Sir Edward Parry had said it was impossible for a man to go to Norfolk Island and not come out a double-distilled &Inn. It was said that penitentiaries could not be immediately built at home: but Ile recommended that trans- portation at any rate should stop, and he would suggest as an iuternie- diate step, that some barren island nearer home should be taken to which convicts should be sent, and they might call that transportation ifthey pleased— Ile recollected. very well, that his lamented friend, 'are. Drummond, said one day, when discussing this question, why not t..stosport the men to thaws,. Island ? And he recommended them TO se1111 1111V (hint!: tO the Ant:pods:, rather than penitentiaries, which required constant' and Vigilant stiperiniesol- ,.elleei and especially let them not persist its carrying au 'infected population Lotto place wle•re they would both receive and do the most harm that was possible. But let them, as he hoped, bring penitentiarie; sixteen thou,and miles nearer the seat of government, and they need not fear the penitentiary System. From the inquiries be haul mode at the Glasgsor Penitentiary, he found that the average mortality of the inmates Iva:, below the general average of tlie city ; and that, sifter taking the work and the expenses together, the cost reached only per head. There was only one other point whirls he tvould notice. lt was true that the Report of the Transportation Committee diciest recommend the immediate Ceasing et tr;;11s110liat.1011 to Norfolk Island; but if noble lords would look into the evidence, the). would find that all the Other parts of the Report were borne out by the evidence, but that the recom- mendation to continue transportation to Norfolk Island, to be thence retrans- ported into the Colonies, was at variance with the whole weight of the evidence. fhat recommendation looked like a graft brought from another plant, and dis- playing very different foliage.--

"—Novas frondes et non suss ponm."

He thanked the House for the attention it had paid to the subject, though perhaps it had tiot received as mach attention as its importance deserved; but, after the discussion, and in the then state of the house, he would not press his motion to a division.

The " previous question" was then put, and carried.


The Earl of lltrox, on Thursday, moved for copies of the same re-

turns relating to the revenue which had been laid upon the table of the House of Commons. Ile reminded the Lords, that at the commence- ment of the session he had stated an opinion that the revenue was in a very unsatisfactory state; and he must say Ilea no need ial improve- ment had taken place. Perhaps sonic tpt.-st ions relating to foreign affairs were its a better train for settlement 110W than then : but ost the other hand, there were these impending hostilities with Chine now, of which flue Government had kept Parliament in ignorance at the commencement of the session. Nobody knew what the nature of the operations against China would I w. or what were the chances of success. It would be the height of eleunl.ity to suppose that China could wage a successful war with Engiand but nevertheless, there was a ttis inettive in that mighty emph.e wluchs WOUld Mahe it .1111110st:1We II/11111/0Se ter1111( tot the Chinese, if they only stood still. Ireland too was a volcano ready to burst at a signal from the agitators who controlled her turbuliea population, and God knows how soon thev might eleIONe to give it. Under these circumstances, reduction of expenditure could not 1:e expected, though an increase was probable; mid it became extremely import:Ha to ascer- tain the reed state of' the finances. Ile found that the total deficiency of revenue had amounted in four y ears so :),1;:t;',nia l., takimt" the Chan- cellor of the Exellegitier's estimates for the current year. New taxes were to be laid, but not sidlicieet to meet the deficiency ; so a vote of credit was to taken. Now a vote of credit WU:: 11 10111 ; so from year to year tile country was reduced to the miserable necessity of pro- viding for the carrent expenditure by lime,. Lord Ifipon ',met strongly disapproved ef the practice; dwelt ;molt the great advantage of a surplus revenue te in.oville fur contingencies and urged the Covens:tient to disregard temporary unpopularity :old put the finances of the country in a sound en.1 healthy state,. which could only be effected by constantly keeping a considerable SLIM in Icnid.

Lord MELbOUIINE contended the (lovernrilent lc■I acted upon

Lord Ripon's principle, and had proposed additional la in to meet the additional expenditure. It' expenses believed to be only temporary should continue, then other measures must lie resorkdSi; but at the same time, he Ives not prepared to give Isis tolliesiost so the principle that taxes should be imposed to keep up a large surplus reveene in time of pea''. That was a great aud doni.tful question, oil whiell he was not prepared to give an opinion.

Lord ASI1111:11TON Sail" the li01.11111. 1W11/011110 Was to borrow money in time of war and repay it in time of pace. That was what the Ameri- cans did : rether than let the money fructify in tleir pockets, they paid their debts. The Government of this ceuntry, on the contrary. not only did not diminish their debt, but they contraeled. fresh debts u mm fime of peace,

Mo.eti n for papers agreed to, Mew mese;i. us.

'WEAVE:: 'lir ES BILL. Sir Plum t. li(o•.1.,ToN, on Monday, moved the scemid resoling of' this bill; the object of which, is to enable the Trustees of the River Weaver, in cheshire, to Imild and endow churchce out of the rates collected is the nevigation of the river. The motion was strongly opposed in Mr. E. 3. hey, Mr. .1. Jenvis, and Mr. G. WiLlinAil.131; but carriill, by 242 to 1Gti.

BATisu or Si oun. IN TRADE. The A TTolINEV-OENEitA I. gave no- tice on Weilmeet.iv, that he should move to insert a clause in the Poor- law A menifineut ilill, to exempt stock in trade from poor-rates.

NEw ',Veer, On the motion of Mr. E. 3. STANLEY, on Thursday, a new writ NV:e( ordered for Coekermonth. in the room ()I' Mr. Horsman, who 11:,d. been appointed a Lord of the Treaeury.